[wolfen68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by penbat Thanks for your idea. I wil have to think about that. I do get an excellent bass temporairily if i press my UE-10s against my ear with my finger. I am experimenting filing the ends of my bores down a bit which may allow the UE-10s to seat a bit deeper and give better bass. The end of the bores were catching against my ear.

I haven't caught up to the end of this thread yet...but if you are finding that pushing on the UE-10's produce more bass..than your fit is not correct. This is a standard test for proper fit with UE's.

You need to call UE and get them adjusted. They will likely widen the bores slightly to improve the fit (done by "painting on" an extra layer of acryillic or whatever they use).

Ask Jerry Harvey and I expect he will say the same.

Edit: I just caught up. Wow, Plainsong is right. This IEM stuff gets out of hand! To address some comments made on Lindrone, I have to say I respect his opinion(s).

However, this must be kept in perspective. For instance, Lindrone doesn't like the Grado sound....which is fine....yet there is an overwhelming fan base here and elsewhere showing that they are top headphone competitors.

Ultimately, Lindrone's individual take on UE products compared to his sensas mean absolutely no more than any other individual member's views. Just because he is a descriptive and able reviewer does not imply his take on these is any better than yours or mine. Anybody listening to high end cans for a few months begins to learn what they like....and knowing what you like is worth it's weight in gold. Geez...he doesn't like Grados!

This UE/Sensa debate has developed a sour note. C'mon....problems with their website? Americans (and probably everyone in the world) are constantly barraged with absurd marketing. UE's claims are totally in line as your experience with them is a subjective experience. Nothing like that Apple computer nonsense where the results are objective and purely data oriented...and benchmarks were skewed (the old "true lie" syndrome).

For a company that is high on it's own marketing....why did they convince me to buy their cheaper model (Ue5c vs. Ue10)? If they were ultimately concerned about maximum profit...why have they adjusted my fit FOUR times due to my weird ear canals? They are trading some people's model to another per request. What do you think they do with the original set? I know what...they get thrown out since they cannot be resold...not even the internals. This is exceptional behavior for any company.

I'm sure sensas are great and I can honestly say at this time I have no preferences since I haven't heard both. However, I love my Ue5c's and I'm considering getting buried with them someday. I just can't figure out if I should be wearing them at that time...or put them in their aluminum case

.

 

[iamdone]

Just a follow up on my comparison of the universal sensaphonic vs my hd650/zu. I just tried playing Led Zeppelin "Immigrant Song" on my hd650 and it did indeed sound better on the sensaphonic. It's just too smooth on the hd650/zu. Rock music was the one area I thought the hd650/zu could use a slight improvement in. They just don't have enough impact for some songs. I was almost tempted to see how Grados sounded for this reason. Rock music still sounds really good on the hd650 but you just have turn the volume up. I guess that what lindrone was talking about with sensa when they still sound really good at a low volume.

 

[lindrone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cct1 My audiologist sent me straight to an ENT friend of mine to get my ears cleaned, they were so bad (that was for a different set of ear molds for something altogether different though--silicone westones)..... ....As for silicone vs acrylic, I've had them both, and I prefer the acriylic..

Did you have the Westone material or Sensaphonics to compare against your silicone? Westone material is significantly worse than Sensaphonics, I had the Westone custom molds for my E5 as well. They are not the same, I'm not even sure Westone's silicone because of how much harder they are.


Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfen68 For a company that is high on it's own marketing....why did they convince me to buy their cheaper model (Ue5c vs. Ue10)? If they were ultimately concerned about maximum profit...why have they adjusted my fit FOUR times due to my weird ear canals? They are trading some people's model to another per request. What do you think they do with the original set? I know what...they get thrown out since they cannot be resold...not even the internals. This is exceptional behavior for any company.

Wolfen, every IEM company is obligated to adjust your fitting as many times as you need them refit, it's part of their reputation, if they can't do that, they can't operate a business in that market. So how many times they have to adjust your IEM has nothing to do with their marketing & profit margin... if they didn't, they won't be in business, period.

They made the correct recommendation in your case to get you to UE5c instead of UE-10 Pro (or did they, really?) That doesn't change that fact that they make their marketing claim regards to the UE-10 Pro on very shaky ground. They are saying they're the best because they're the flattest, and tells everyone to ask other companies to come up with their curves and prove it. Meanwhile the truth is that good sound isn't made on flat curves alone, other companies purposely don't have a flat curve to get a sound signature they want the users to get. What sort of aggressive marketing is that?

Again, it doesn't mean UE5c isn't good, or that UE-10 Pro isn't good.. it means the company behind the products aren't marketing them in an ethical way. If you ask me if I think Apple's marketing is ethical, I would say no, if you ask me if Intel's marketing is ethical, I would say no as well. There are very few old-fashioned company in the United State these days that truly still market ethically, Proctor & Gamble, for example. They don't make any technical claim that hasn't been researched extensively and proven. The big difference is that UE's claim is that flat curve is the best way to produce sound no matter what, but that in itself is either ignorance or just a plain face lie.

UE-10 Pro is still a good product at the end of the day... but is Ultimate Ears a good company? No. Do I buy good products from bad companies even when I hate the bad companies? I actually do that quite often. I'm a big fan of Microsoft Windows, Apple's iPod, I even bought UE's UE-10 Pro (which is not a bad product on its own, but compared to my 2X-S, I like the 2X-S that much more for its additional texture). It doesn't make the marketing department at any of those companies anymore respectable.

 

[toaster]

I don't know about you, but I know absurd marketing when I see it. I usually just laugh at the company and don't buy it's products. The ipod is an exception to this i'll admit. Also, advertising usually does not dictate what i buy. I buy things because i myself need/want them. If a company makes a product that suits my needs, I'll buy it. If a company makes a product that suits my needs, but advertise it poorly, i'll think twice about buying it. If two companies make competing prodcuts and one advertises poorly and the other advertises well, which do you think i would pick? (*obligatory advertises poorly/well imo.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfen68 C'mon....problems with their website? Americans (and probably everyone in the world) are constantly barraged with absurd marketing. UE's claims are totally in line as your experience with them is a subjective experience. Nothing like that Apple computer nonsense where the results are objective and purely data oriented...and benchmarks were skewed (the old "true lie" syndrome).

The fact that the UE website says "quite simply the finest personal monitors in the world" bothers me. if it doesn't bother you, that's ok. but the same way i won't tell you it should bother you, don't tell me "c'mon" inferring that it is wrong of me to be bothered by it...biotch...

And your next line, "UE's claims are totally in line as your experience with them is a subjective experience..." if there is subjectivity involved, how can they be the best. whether or not they say they are the best on their website doesn't change the product itself. why don't they just make the best product, and let the product sell itself. companies that do this get more respect from me.

By now, the whole flat curve thing as Lindrone keeps mentioning (and how we specifically do NOT want flat curves in our headphones because the sound bypasses parts of our ears that it wouldn't in a live scenario and because all equimpment is not flat...) really does lead me to believe that on a business level (for reasons i have made it abundantly clear already) AND on a technical level, (due to the fact that sensa does not rely on flat curves when they design the response of their headphones) the sensas are just headed in the right direction for superiority...ohhh...ahh...lol.

Yeah, Apple sux so, so, much...but that's for another forum.

 

[Zoide]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamdone Just a follow up on my comparison of the universal sensaphonic vs my hd650/zu. I just tried playing Led Zeppelin "Immigrant Song" on my hd650 and it did indeed sound better on the sensaphonic. It's just too smooth on the hd650/zu. Rock music was the one area I thought the hd650/zu could use a slight improvement in. They just don't have enough impact for some songs. I was almost tempted to see how Grados sounded for this reason. Rock music still sounds really good on the hd650 but you just have turn the volume up. I guess that what lindrone was talking about with sensa when they still sound really good at a low volume.

That's a relief. I'd thought that all these comparisons of the 2X-S to the HD650s would mean it was just as no-too-compatible w/ rock and metal as the 650s.

Performance in that area is definitely something that made me buy the CD-3000's after listening to my 580s for some time. The Senns were just not exciting and involving enough.

 

[iamdone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoide That's a relief. I'd thought that all these comparisons of the 2X-S to the HD650s would mean it was just as no-too-compatible w/ rock and metal as the 650s. Performance in that area is definitely something that made me buy the CD-3000's after listening to my 580s for some time. The Senns were just not exciting and involving enough.

Yeah, they definately seem like they are better fit for rock music. There's just that extra punch you need.

I made a playlist for lindrone that we kinda randomly went through (he relied more on his own song selections since he knew what to look for) that I plan to try out when I receive the sensaphonics. I chose dynamic songs of all genres. I'm not really into writing reviews, so I'll just give an overall impression and let you know if the sensaphonics handles all the genres better.

I haven't really tested the cd3000 but I think they might be too bright with my PPA. I saw a trade for an hd650 w/after market cable for an cd3000 woody w/Headphile cable. It looked tempting but I didn't want to risk getting something I didn't like when I already know I like the hd650/zu. Plus I'm planning on using the sensaphonic for most of my home use now, so I think I'm set.

 

[toaster]

it's hard to believe a little thing that fits in your ears, without an amp as well, can sound better than the monster hd-650 with special cables.

wow, sensaphonics where are you already!?

 

[wolfen68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by toaster22 The fact that the UE website says "best iem's in the world" bothers me. if it doesn't bother you, that's ok. but the same way i won't tell you it should bother you, don't tell me "c'mon" inferring that it is wrong of me to be bothered by it...biotch... And your next line, "UE's claims are totally in line as your experience with them is a subjective experience..." if there is subjectivity involved, how can they be the best. whether or not they say they are the best on their website doesn't change the product itself. why don't they just make the best product, and let the product sell itself. companies that do this get more respect from me.

Well toast....I may not have been clear enough...my apologies. The "C'mon" was really an exasperation of why any of this really matters in the sensa vs. UE discussion.

As far as marketing, who cares? You have your opinion and to be honest...I think mine is about the same as I'm pretty much an anti-marketing type (let the best float to the top on their own merits!).

This whole flat vs. non-flat response is a technical argument that probably has "experts" for both sides. What matters to me is how they sound to ME. As we have seen, frequency response charts mean little to overall performance....so why would one company's claim to tune it in a certain way (in their opinion, better) matter? It would be an equally futile measure of performance. Sure it's an interesting argument technically, but is it worth affecting some newbie's purchasing decision?

And Lindrone....

I totally agree, proper fit makes an IEM company go. However, why would a company allow an individual to upgrade to a different model that they didn't order? That seems awful generous to me since the first unit must be discarded. Was there some part of the purchase agreement that I missed?

I assure you I am not a UE fanboy, because I know for a fact that I'm not (I've actually convinced two people not to buy them just recently for different reasons). But I can say that though the company is not perfect, it's been earthly close. Mr. Harvey made it clear that I would be happy with my IEM's at the end of the day no matter how long it takes. So far he has stuck with this promise which has spanned 2.5 months. I don't know him, he doesn't know me, but he has been sincere and receptive to feedback. The SPL testing he did for Gorman was great as well. For this reason only, I feel compelled to keep the UE/Sensa debate on track.

Performance, Service, and Value vs. Performance, Service, and Value. Let the best product shine.

 

[lindrone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfen68 This whole flat vs. non-flat response is a technical argument that probably has "experts" for both sides. What matters to me is how they sound to ME. As we have seen, frequency response charts mean little to overall performance....so why would one company's claim to tune it in a certain way (in their opinion, better) matter? It would be an equally futile measure of performance. Sure it's an interesting argument technically, but is it worth affecting some newbie's purchasing decision?

The problem is, those type of claims do in effect persuade newbies who have not been introduced to intricacy of sound. It's easy to read the claims on one website and believe in them without doing further research, especially the knowledge behind this type of things are hard to find in the first place.

Keep in mind, UE is the *only* company that literally pits themselves against other company with their claims. They demand you to get a response chart from other companies to compare to theirs. They call out other companies directly to compare a technical claim that, like you said, simply doesn't matter:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Directly from UE's website If others claim to have a triple driver design that is comparable or better than the UE-10 Pro just ask them to provide you the proof in their advertising by requesting their products frequency response chart to compare to the UE-10 Pro.

Heck, their triple driver design isn't even really technically better than dual-driver designs.


Quote:

I totally agree, proper fit makes an IEM company go. However, why would a company allow an individual to upgrade to a different model that they didn't order? That seems awful generous to me since the first unit must be discarded. Was there some part of the purchase agreement that I missed?

No, there's no part of agreement that you missed, they're just being nice and professional about it, and living up to their guarantee as best as they could. Keep in mind, what upsets me about UE as a company is the way they run their marketing department, not their tech support nor their customer relations. They do very well with everything else other than the vicious marketing scheme they've came up with. Again, another Apple comparison here, Apple's tech support has always ranked amongst the best year after year, they still sell their product with vicious marketing.

 

[toaster]

i want to get a cd of a well-recorded orchestra and maybe another well-recorded piano cd to check out on the sensas, anyone have any recommendations for these, or any other especially well-recorded cds for any genre of music?

 

[random person]

toaster -- Try Keith Jarrett's piano CD "The Kohln Concert." It's a live recording from some years ago but it is really well recorded. You can hear Keith breathing and occasionally moaning, plus you can hear him hit the pedals of the piano. If you don't know this CD, it is one of the best solo jazz improvisation CDs ever made -- a brooding, brilliant CD. Makes you sob and demands that you listen to the whole CD all the way through in one sitting. You'll love it!

 

[toaster]

thank you very much for that recommendation.

 

[dmt1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfen68 I totally agree, proper fit makes an IEM company go. However, why would a company allow an individual to upgrade to a different model that they didn't order? That seems awful generous to me since the first unit must be discarded. Was there some part of the purchase agreement that I missed?

I was going to comment on this after I got the UE10PRO's, but since it keeps coming up...Wolfen, I couldn't agree with you more. I ordered the UE5C's on Mindy and Mike's recommendation, but still at my own risk. They genuinely felt bad that they weren't what I was after--I got the feeling that Mindy was disappointed that I was disappointed. They reexamined them, changed filters, and sent them back--still not what I was after. I was given the opportunity to go to the UE10PRO's, and pay the difference--I even offered to pay for incidentals, as I know the drivers of the UE5C's are going to be tossed, but they're only charging me the difference between the two phones. I never mentioned that Utdeep had gone from the UE5C's to the UE10PRO's, and I didn't demand they offer the upgrade; and although I'm happy they did, they certainly weren't obligated to (the flip side to this is that I think they do this on an individual basis--there is no guarantee if you don't like the UE5C's that you'll be able to get the UE10PRO's. I knew this going in, and I bought the UE5C's because I honestly believed they would work out great for me. My issues with them were soley sound signature, and not quality of sound; considering all of that, I'd say UE is a pretty damned good company--they are bending over backwards to try to get me what I'm after, and have been nothing but pleasant in doing so.). I would unhesitatingly and strongly recommend them to anyone.

As far as I'm concerned, they've gone above and beyond what their obligations are--and done that pleasantly--no harsh words, just polite interaction (mainly email). If I don't like the UE10's (but I think and hope I will), so be it--but it won't be UE's fault for not trying.

All I can say is advertising, is, well, advertising, and I don't think there is anything "unethical" in their advertising--I don't think they've printed anything they think is untrue; you're welcome to disagree with it, but it's a stretch to say they're unethical--that implies they're purposely stating mistruths which they know are untrue, I simply don't think that's the case. It looks more like an excuse to slag them, and has nothing to do with the quality of their products. And as for "mass market" appeal, well, these are more of a niche product (EX-71's are more of a mass market item IMHO), used mainly by musicians and industry insiders with much, much more knowledge than ANYONE on this board--I really doubt they're going to be swayed by what's on a website, wether it be Sensa's or UE's.

 

[raisin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindrone Heck, their triple driver design isn't even really technically better than dual-driver designs.

Can you expound on that at all, Lindrone?

Dmt1--Positive karma points for offering to pay for the incidentals! As a business owner I know that your offer made the Harvey's day.

 

[gorman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindrone The problem is, those type of claims do in effect persuade newbies who have not been introduced to intricacy of sound. It's easy to read the claims on one website and believe in them without doing further research, especially the knowledge behind this type of things are hard to find in the first place.

Yes. But again, Lindrone... you are making it sound as if the general consensus was that flat frequency response was unimportant. I already demonstrated that this is far from the truth. And regarding the optimal frequency response for IEM not being flat, if I look at it, I see that in the range indicated by the guy who mentioned that, UEs indeed have some sort of a spike. Or am I mistaken?
And to be clear, when I opted for UE-10 I didn't even know what a frequency response chart was. I chose them because of triple driver design (as I listen to music with very deep bass), clear color option, clientele list, review of them by Welly Wu, detachable cable, helpfulness shown in e-mail communications Quote:

Keep in mind, UE is the *only* company that literally pits themselves against other company with their claims. They demand you to get a response chart from other companies to compare to theirs. They call out other companies directly to compare a technical claim that, like you said, simply doesn't matter. Heck, their triple driver design isn't even really technically better than dual-driver designs.

First, as Sensas do not have a triple driver design, that statement shouldn't even apply to 2X-S. I believe is directed at Westone that, on their website speak of unequalled accuracy and response, plus mentioning a frequency response extending up to 18KHz.
As to what you mean by their design not being better than dual-driver designs, I'd like some evidence for this, or at least some explanation of what you mean, apart from your personal preference in sound signature.

One more thing. You are calling them unethical in their business approach. Well, Jerry Harvey is indeed a sound engineer and given his measurements he might well believe in good faith that his product is the best out there. If he believes that in good faith I don't see how you could call him unethical for stating it.