[DRCope]

As Hirsch said, many, many deficiencies laid at the feet, (ears?) of these phones, and many fine speakers for that matter, are actually the fault of less than great source and amplification gear.

Then, too, people are getting used to the absurd levels of bass suitable for dinosaur footfalls, but not at all well-suited to music - not even the Dafos monster drum!

 

[FCJ]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hirsch The reported lack of bass in the K-1000 is a ..err...base canard. The K-1000 can go seriously low with good amplification, tube or solid state. If you're not hearing deep bass with K-1000, it can be fixed upstream.

Agree--deep bass is there with the nOrh SE-9. After listening with this combo, I'm still surprised that this perception exists.

 

[ServinginEcuador]

This experience was the opposite of LobsterSan's custom cable. I think everyone preferred their stock cable to that one, and yet here we find someon who likes their custom job over stock. Maybe someone else should try this out and see what they think and report in. If it's that much of an improvement, lots of people would love to know.

 

[lan]

Quote:

Originally posted by FCJ Agree--deep bass is there with the nOrh SE-9. After listening with this combo, I'm still surprised that this perception exists.

I agree here. I also have nOrh SE9 and the bass is rather full even when I'm spreading the K1000s apart a little bit.

 

[DRCope]

Wallijonn,

There's room for any number of flavors in the marketplace, and in peoples' hi-fi. I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

I will say that, IMHO, once one hears an SET amp with K-1000's, even going back to push-pull tube amps, much less solid-state, is difficult.

YMMV, as always.

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Quichotte "Remember to store the K1000's in a different position every time you take them off your head to ensure the voice coil doesn't go out of position. The weight of the diaphragms can cause off centering." Really, Pinkie?!? Where did you get this piece of information form? Sounds really strange! And what happens when the phones are stored for prolonged periods of time, for example by dealers? I doubt they go to the boxes from time to time and put them upside down just to make sure the phones will be alright. Oh yes, I got it! The phones are that good they are being sold immediately, still warm from the factory! I'm not ironic, and I'm not saying I don't belive you, rather the contrary. I'm just very surprised, and I would be happy to know more about this phenomenon. This could prove to be very valuable information indeed! How long do you think it would be safe to let the phones in the same position (in case you have any idea)?

Karl Peschel from AKG's technical department in Austria had this to say on the matter, and I quote his e-mail:

"Hello Mike,

You are certainly right that after a certain period of use the sound may change. It's difficult to evaluate this change as it is certainly in a region where only users with very good ears and a critical and objective sense of listening will detect the difference. Technically it can be explained that the compliance of the membrane get's better with time and hours of use and thus the sound gets more richness and width in frequency response. I have not heard this about the 501 in particular, so I really appreciate your comments and will also pass it on to our R&D people. We for instance know that our K1000 really needs such a burn-in period and furthermore audiophile users regularily change the storage position of the K1000 in order to avoid that the capsule's voice coil gets off centered or the diaphragm gets an irregular shape. Such precautions certainly are not necessary with the 501 as the membrane is much lighter.

Thank's again and many kind regards from Austria

Karl"

 

[AndreYew]

The K1000's lack of bass is due to physics not perception. Amps that make them sound like they have bass are inherently inaccurate, not that there's anything wrong with that.

--Andre

 

[FCJ]

Quote:

Originally posted by AndreYew Amps that make them sound like they have bass are inherently inaccurate, not that there's anything wrong with that. --Andre

Not a thing. But couldn't you make similar claims about most headphone/amp combinations? In other words, say you had a phone that's detailed but borders on bright, and you use an amp that's dark to lessen the brightness, wouldn't that be the same type of inaccruacy?

Either way, it's still an amazing phone.

 

[jpelg]

Quote:

say you had a phone that's detailed but borders on bright, and you use an amp that's dark to lessen the brightness, wouldn't that be the same type of inaccruacy?

Yes, and for some reason, I have a problem with that kind of 'system matching', where deficiencies and inaccuracies of one component are tempered by that of another. I am sure that there are many here who would say that I am missing out on many nice-sounding combos. But that's just me, and that's a whole 'nother thread.

 

[FCJ]

Quote:

Originally posted by jpelg But that's just me, and that's a whole 'nother thread.

Yes, it is.

But if due to design/physics the K-1000s don't have bass, how can another upstream component (in this case, an amp) provide missing bass? Not that I'm claiming the K-1000s lack bass, but if it's physically impossible for them to produce bass how can another component help? I can see if another component lessens the effect, but I don't see how it can add it (if it is indeed physically impossible for reproduction to take place).

 

[gerG]

DR Cope, I will be seriously impressed if you get the stock cable changed out. I dug into mine a bit, and did not like the extent of the operation. Maybe if I had spare parts available...

To my perception the K1000s have a significant lack of deep bass. They lack the advantage of a sealed enclosure around the ear to pressurize, so they have to roll off somewhere. Somewhere in this case is 50 hz. Trying to force them to create deep bass via electronics results in serious driver excursions, and muddy mids. You also get a funky secondary bass effect due to reacting vibrations of the pads against your head.

I do in fact use a sub with my K1000s. It is easy to think that they have good bass due to the dynamics of that wonderful driver, but that notion quickly vanishes when I switch in the crossover and the sub 50 hz information is restored. For this to work properly the sub has to be in extreme nearfield, and the level needs to be matched carefully. It also has to be a very capable sub, as opposed to most of the "home theater" stuff that dominates the market right now. The result is wonderful. Highly recommended.


gerG

 

[wallijonn]

FCJ,

an upstream component that has a lot of affect on the K1000 bass is the amp itself. the higher the damping factor / slew rate, the "better" the bass should be able to be perceived. just don't expect copious amounts of bass like the DT770, nor at ear shattering levels. what you should be able to appreciate more though are kettle drum hits, lower bass-violin notes, etc. likewise, a cd player that reproduces the low end faithfully should give a better appreciation of what little bass is perceived.

 

[AndreYew]

The K1000 drivers are essentially dipolar, with an open acoustic path between the front and back of the drivers --- you can prove this to yourself simply by swinging the drivers in and out and noticing how bass changes. A dipolar speaker will attenuate at 6 dB/octave below a frequency determined by the path difference between the front and back of the drivers, due to cancellation between opposite polarity sounds from the front and back of the driver. An amp whose response rises at 6 dB/octave in the bass can compensate for this, at the expense of headroom. An amp can either be deliberately (or accidentally) be designed to do this, or its output impedance can be high enough to interact with the K1000's input Z to produce a rising bass response.

--Andre

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by jpelg Yes, and for some reason, I have a problem with that kind of 'system matching', where deficiencies and inaccuracies of one component are tempered by that of another. I am sure that there are many here who would say that I am missing out on many nice-sounding combos. But that's just me, and that's a whole 'nother thread.

But where do deficiencies and inaccuracies end, and incompatibility begin? These components are not electrically identical, even if some key parameters are. Why should we expect two components that have different properties to act the same in response to a third? Some amps work better into high impedance loads, some into low impedance, and some don't care, but may vary by parameters other than impedance. So, if correcting for inadequacy conceptually bothers you, try calling it maximizing compatibility. It's the same thing.

 

[gerG]

Hi Andre. Your analogy is correct for a loudspeaker at some distance from the listener, but I think that the K1000 is a bit different animal. The front of the driver is in extreme nearfield, while the rear radiates to freefield. The level of the backside (evil) wave is so weak by the time any of it reaches the ear that it is almost negligable. Adding a chamber to the back of the K1000 would not change the bass much.

Ways to improve bass response:
Keeping the panels close to the ear increases the local pressure, and thereby improves bass response.

Closing off the gap around the panels creates a boundary which results in local pressure reinforcement. Lean your head back against a pillow or cushion and listen to what happens.

I am still suspicious that there is a cuttoff filter in the K1000s to limit driver excursion. If so, it would play into the LF cutoff. Anybody done an impedance sweep on these things? That would give a good hint, and would be good info for optimizing a subwoofer crossover.


gerG