[bowei006]

Quote:

 
hahaha!

 

[CC Lemon]

There's a lot to catch up on here... guess that's what I get for showing up late.
 
As for the macbook pro comments... you can get a lot more performance for your money. The build quality in some areas might be better for the MBP, but any high end laptop should hold up pretty well. I just took a quick look and a 17" MBP with a 2.5 GHz processor and 8GB of RAM is just below $3000. You can get a computer with a 3.6 GHz processor, 16 GB of RAM, significantly better graphics, an SSD for speed + HDD for storage, blu-ray drive, and a screen with a 1080 resolution for the same price.
 
I think it's clear that apple is lacking in some of the customization that "normal people" would use. I realize stuff like ROMs and various other things like that wont be for your everyday person. That said, stuff like widgets, launchers, themes, lockers, wallpapers, and keyboards are rather straight forward to use and can do a lot for personalizing your device. My biggest complaint against apple's lack of customization is the fact that my mom's iphone 4S pretty much looks the same as the original iphone that I had. You unlock it and see rows of tiles. I could spend 10-20 minutes and make my android phone look like a completely different interface if I felt like it. You don't have to have root, flash roms or do anything complicated to be able to customize an android device. Doing those things will give you more options, but it is far from required. Apple needs to move away from just that basic tile design. We may still be talking about mobile devices, but we have the hardware capabilities of so much more. The extremely simplistic design was perfect for the original iphone. I don't see a future for it when you consider some of the stuff android offers and what Windows 8 is expected to offer.
 
I'm not sure I follow the point on the touch screens. Are you talking about older devices or something? I haven't seen the exact response time numbers to all of the devices, but I don't think my iphones or my mom's 4S/ipad 2 were any faster than the 3 android devices I've owned, in terms of screen response. There might have been a minimal difference, but it's nothing noticeable. This may have been an issue with older devices, but none of the newer devices seem to have an issue with this.
 
Benchmarks are benchmarks. They can, and should, be indicative of performance. Generally they do correlate. The extent to which they correlate can vary. This is another case of pure numbers versus actual perceived differences. For every day use, I haven't noticed a difference between the android devices I own and the iOS devices I've owned or used. My moto atrix wasn't happy when I tried to play a full 1080 HD file on my TV, but that was kind of asking for a lot. It did manage 720 quite well. I've never really been quite sure what to think of mobile benchmarks. Some have quite a bit of variation from one run to the next and they generally seem to be a basic indication of the hardware in the device, rather than the actual performance seen in use.
 
Another HUGE complaint I have against apple: proprietary connectors. The only real reason I see for this would be to make money. I will admit that they can offer some advantages, but I hate them. Whether it be the $200 phone (with contract), the $500 tablet or a $3000 laptop, you still need $40+ adaptor/cable to connect it to a HD TV. I was able to play HD video on my TV from my moto atrix right out of the box (needed to install a video app for the proper codecs) with an included HDMI cable. If that cable broke or was lost, it could be replaced with another standard cable. Plus, it's compatible with any other device that happens to use the standard. I can let it slide for the mobile devices (even though many android devices are perfectly capable of this), but I think it's a little ridiculous for the high end laptops. I could buy a $500 laptop that has a regular HDMI port on it and connect it to my TV with one of my HDMI cables. Why can't apple's flagship laptop offer the same? Not even as an added option?
 
I do wish apple would offer different sizes for their iOS devices. When I got rid of my atrix for my droid bionic, I was worried that the bionic would be too huge. It turns out, I really liked the size and I think I might even be able to tolerate something a tad larger even. I don't have huge hands by any means, but the bionic has never been a problem for me to use. I understand that some people might have issues with it, especially if they have smaller hands. Maybe that's why apple should consider offering more variety. I have complained that apple lacks options. Aside from internal storage, your biggest choice is white or black. Aside from that choice, everyone else has the same looking device. I like having options when I'm looking at buying something, even if one product is clearly better. Generally speaking, most people will decide between android and iOS and then proceed to choose their device. Once you choose iOS, there is almost no choice to be made. I can't imagine it would be that difficult for them to offer different sizes with similar specs. The most difficult thing would be their new retina display pixel density. I'm not saying I'd never buy a smaller device/smaller screen, but it would be nice to always have that option. I get that the one-product-to-rule-them-all business design, but it's not necessarily the best for the consumer.
 
Edit: @Totally Dubbed: you should easily be able to build a computer like you described in the HDMI thread. I'm running 2.8 GHz quad core with 4 GB RAM and a regular LCD monitor @ 1080 resolution that I built around 4 years ago for $1200. The graphics I have aren't top of the line anymore, but I still run some modern games at full settings. Considering you have a similar budget 4 years later, you should be able to get a pretty great set up that will handle almost anything you throw at it.

 

[DaBomb77766]

Quote:

There's a lot to catch up on here... guess that's what I get for showing up late.
 
As for the macbook pro comments... you can get a lot more performance for your money. The build quality in some areas might be better for the MBP, but any high end laptop should hold up pretty well. I just took a quick look and a 17" MBP with a 2.5 GHz processor and 8GB of RAM is just below $3000. You can get a computer with a 3.6 GHz processor, 16 GB of RAM, significantly better graphics, an SSD for speed + HDD for storage, blu-ray drive, and a screen with a 1080 resolution for the same price.
 
Another HUGE complaint I have against apple: proprietary connectors. The only real reason I see for this would be to make money. I will admit that they can offer some advantages, but I hate them. Whether it be the $200 phone (with contract), the $500 tablet or a $3000 laptop, you still need $40+ adaptor/cable to connect it to a HD TV. I was able to play HD video on my TV from my moto atrix right out of the box (needed to install a video app for the proper codecs) with an included HDMI cable. If that cable broke or was lost, it could be replaced with another standard cable. Plus, it's compatible with any other device that happens to use the standard. I can let it slide for the mobile devices (even though many android devices are perfectly capable of this), but I think it's a little ridiculous for the high end laptops. I could buy a $500 laptop that has a regular HDMI port on it and connect it to my TV with one of my HDMI cables. Why can't apple's flagship laptop offer the same? Not even as an added option?
 

 
Well sometimes people aren't buying the laptops simply for the performance - I simply have not seen any laptops that come even close to the build quality of the MBP.  The HP Envy was touted as being the MBP killer, but its build still pales in comparison to the MBP.  Granted you can get far better performance for the price, but as a whole package the MBP delivers what you pay for. Depends on how much you value the build.
 
As far as proprietary connectors go, as annoying as they are, the alternative would be to have about 5 different connectors all over the device.  Apple's dock connector has a line-out, digital audio output, HDMI, USB and charging port all built into one.  Otherwise it'd have to have, at the very least, one extra mini-HDMI then replace the dock connector with USB mini-B for data transfer/charging and you'd still be missing out on the line-out, remote and digital-out capabilities.  Apple uses the connector for a reason, and it's not just to piss us off.
 
It would be nice for them to add an HDMI output though.  Thunderbolt is nice and all, but it doesn't give us audio output and video all in one cable...which can make it a real pain in the ass to connect to a home theatre system and the like.  Even cheap PC laptops offer this...same goes for things like USB 3.0.

 

[Totally Dubbed]

Quote:

I do wish apple would offer different sizes for their iOS devices. When I got rid of my atrix for my droid bionic, I was worried that the bionic would be too huge. It turns out, I really liked the size and I think I might even be able to tolerate something a tad larger even. I don't have huge hands by any means, but the bionic has never been a problem for me to use. I understand that some people might have issues with it, especially if they have smaller hands. Maybe that's why apple should consider offering more variety. I have complained that apple lacks options. Aside from internal storage, your biggest choice is white or black. Aside from that choice, everyone else has the same looking device. I like having options when I'm looking at buying something, even if one product is clearly better. Generally speaking, most people will decide between android and iOS and then proceed to choose their device. Once you choose iOS, there is almost no choice to be made. I can't imagine it would be that difficult for them to offer different sizes with similar specs. The most difficult thing would be their new retina display pixel density. I'm not saying I'd never buy a smaller device/smaller screen, but it would be nice to always have that option. I get that the one-product-to-rule-them-all business design, but it's not necessarily the best for the consumer.
 
Edit: @Totally Dubbed: you should easily be able to build a computer like you described in the HDMI thread. I'm running 2.8 GHz quad core with 4 GB RAM and a regular LCD monitor @ 1080 resolution that I built around 4 years ago for $1200. The graphics I have aren't top of the line anymore, but I still run some modern games at full settings. Considering you have a similar budget 4 years later, you should be able to get a pretty great set up that will handle almost anything you throw at it.

Hey man!

That was a great read!
I do agree on all your points!
 
About benchmarks:
I can trick you all by thinking my phone is almost 2x faster than a stock s2 via benchmarks, however when using the phone the rom will be so laggy that it will make u wonder why the benchmark is so high
 
PC wise - yeah I'm sure it will be possible, I've had enough of my dual core - even though its a stallion @ 3.53ghz OC'ed from 2.93
 
 
 

 

[Totally Dubbed]

Quote:

Well sometimes people aren't buying the laptops simply for the performance - I simply have not seen any laptops that come even close to the build quality of the MBP.  The HP Envy was touted as being the MBP killer, but its build still pales in comparison to the MBP.  Granted you can get far better performance for the price, but as a whole package the MBP delivers what you pay for. Depends on how much you value the build.

I think what make Apple so popular on their MAC's and laptops - isn't their performance, in fact its far from it - I find that usually its bought because of a few reasons:
-It's a MAC - and people are fan-boys -> those exist for every brand, although apple hold the "largest market share" of them
-Its safe vs windows -> no viruses
-Its fast and light
 
Where as a windows is:
-Cheaper
-Less safe to use
-Faster in performance (hardware)
-Has more compatibility (although that's now dying as many manufacturers make it windows and mac compatible) 
 
 
 

 

[bowei006]

Ttoaly Dubbed hits them
 
I could reply to CC Lemon but my post would take too long and in the end the fact would just be, differnt people prefer differnt devices and things in their lives.
 
2X your score? Single threaded or Multi Threaded? Linpack on iOS is only single threaded. With that being said even the SG1 with 2X it's standard single thread score of 45Mflops being 90 Mflops then stil can't beat 150Mflops average and 180Mflops top on the iPhone 4S. it's been reported that the multithreaded version of linpack on that phone with overclocked kernel will only get about 90Mflops for the average user and 100Mflops if you can seriously get and optomize it. Which is still less than the 150Mflops single threaded standard run on the 4S
 
 

 

[CC Lemon]

What are we considering for build quality? If you're talking simply about how well it's put together and how it stands up to regular use, then I still think that other options are good and not far off from the MBP. The MBP definitely looks and feels better than most of the other options but if it were to come down to actual functionality of the build quality, I'm not sure we're talking about a major difference.
 
I definitely agree with the idea that different products are for different people. I think the MBP combines a lot of things and does them fairly well. The one thing I think it excels at is the form factor when you consider the performance you can get.
 
I also don't think that iOS devices are bad devices. I definitely think they're overrated and I would disagree that they are, factually, the best devices. There are some features I think they should offer or some OS design choices I think need to be updated for everyone's benefit. It's definitely a solid platform that is easy to use and great for many people.
 
I understand that the proprietary connector has it's uses and advantages, but it's also a pain and makes some functionality difficult. The only thing left out from having an HDMI and USB port is the line out function. I'll agree that the i-connection does combine a lot of features into one. The fact that they can't (realistically, refuse to) put an HDMI connection on their laptops just seems ridiculous to me. I just checked the mac pro specs and apparently they get special video cards that don't include hdmi ports either. An hdmi port would be far more useful than display port or firewire ports for most people. Even if the i-connection is a good all-in-one connection, I don't get the feeling they do it for convenience when they don't put such a common port on their high end computers.
 
I dislike apple's popularity for the fact that they have guaranteed sales without producing a good product. There's an assumption that the next iphone will always be the best thing ever. There was a poll before the release of the iphone 4S and the results showed that something around 30% of the respondents planned on getting the next iphone without any knowledge of the device features, specifications, appearances, etc. That lack of logic is just astounding to me.

 

[Currawong]

Totally Dubbed and CC Lemon: I'd say you guys are in the minority of users with your opinions. While Apple gear hasn't always been the fastest or the most customisable, it has been the most consistent. Many people value knowing what they are getting as well as not having to have a huge amount of technical knowledge to operate their computer or smartphone. Apple's computers and iDevices are designed to work optimally with the software they come with, at the same time considering issues such as battery life and noise. If you consider the compromises that other manufacturers have to make in their designs to include bigger screens, memory expansion and extra ports on their smartphones, such as lower screen quality, bulky size, confusing functionality and reduced battery life, the design of the iPhone makes a lot of sense. You will also be able to get free system updates on iPhones for the next 4 years (if not longer), something which you can't say of most Android phones, which rarely even ship new with the latest version.

 

[CC Lemon]

According to sales, I wouldn't quite say it's a minority opinion. For one reason or another, android holds the highest sales numbers and has a growing market share over time.
 
It's definitely true that some phones have to make those kinds of sacrifices, but that's not always the case. Some phones are just terrible and have multiple issues. Some make sacrifices to be better in other areas. Some phones are generally up to par but not top of the line in some areas. To put it the way you put it, Apple made compromises to keep many of those aspects up to par. I'm not going to pretend that Android, iOS, Windows or any other platform is the perfect platform. They all make some sacrifices of some sort. One of the great things about the many andriod devices is that you can choose what's important to you and pick the device that's best for you. The Apple business model is that Apple knows what's best for you and will make that choice for you.
 
As far as consistency, I would agree and disagree. They've been consistent with their designs, but they've also made smaller changes. I think that earlier in the life of the iPhone line, they were definitely the better device unless you were really into stuff like the developer communities. As time passes, I think the gap has closed and I think the tables are turning. It may seem like I'm a fan boy, but I'm honestly not dedicated to either one. I've owned 2 iphones and 2 android devices. I changed because an android phone impressed me more than the iphone. I look forward to hearing news about releases of Apple products. I used to be impressed by them, but I've slowly been less and less impressed with each revision. If another iOS device is released that impresses me more than competing android products, I'll have no issue with buying it.
 
I wont argue that Apple has more support and customer service behind their devices. Some Android device manufacturers are better than others. If you want the best support in terms of updates, you're generally better off looking toward the developers. Obviously, that's not for everyone.

 

[DaBomb77766]

One huge problem I have with Apple though, is how they totally disregard practically all large hardware/software issues consumers tend to face.  They always say that there's no problem at all, then quietly fix it in a software update or hardware revision without telling anyone about it, or by calling it a new "feature."  It's just really bad PR to always do that...

 

[Totally Dubbed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowei006 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
2X your score? Single threaded or Multi Threaded? Linpack on iOS is only single threaded. With that being said even the SG1 with 2X it's standard single thread score of 45Mflops being 90 Mflops then stil can't beat 150Mflops average and 180Mflops top on the iPhone 4S. it's been reported that the multithreaded version of linpack on that phone with overclocked kernel will only get about 90Mflops for the average user and 100Mflops if you can seriously get and optomize it. Which is still less than the 150Mflops single threaded standard run on the 4S
 

Yup - not sure if its single or multi
 


Quote:

I dislike apple's popularity for the fact that they have guaranteed sales without producing a good product. There's an assumption that the next iphone will always be the best thing ever. There was a poll before the release of the iphone 4S and the results showed that something around 30% of the respondents planned on getting the next iphone without any knowledge of the device features, specifications, appearances, etc. That lack of logic is just astounding to me.

True - it is a little foolish to go head over heels for something that you have no idea what you are buying.

Quote:

Totally Dubbed and CC Lemon: I'd say you guys are in the minority of users with your opinions. While Apple gear hasn't always been the fastest or the most customisable, it has been the most consistent. Many people value knowing what they are getting as well as not having to have a huge amount of technical knowledge to operate their computer or smartphone. Apple's computers and iDevices are designed to work optimally with the software they come with, at the same time considering issues such as battery life and noise. If you consider the compromises that other manufacturers have to make in their designs to include bigger screens, memory expansion and extra ports on their smartphones, such as lower screen quality, bulky size, confusing functionality and reduced battery life, the design of the iPhone makes a lot of sense. You will also be able to get free system updates on iPhones for the next 4 years (if not longer), something which you can't say of most Android phones, which rarely even ship new with the latest version.

 
To some extent I agree about consistency - but then again disagree at the same time.

You think people were happy about the 4S release? 
"How do people know if I have the 4S if it looks identical to the 4"
 
I mean - that's the type of people that I just don't get.
It's almost as they want to show off their new Apple product-  and to do so, need it to be different from the previous model.
 


Quote:

According to sales, I wouldn't quite say it's a minority opinion. For one reason or another, android holds the highest sales numbers and has a growing market share over time.
I wont argue that Apple has more support and customer service behind their devices. Some Android device manufacturers are better than others. If you want the best support in terms of updates, you're generally better off looking toward the developers. Obviously, that's not for everyone.

Well android hold the biggest share - as they aren't limited to 2 devices.
I just sometimes wonder if Apple was in other phones...their market share would increase, but their reliability would go down
And that's where people who have used android will know - not every firmware update is optimised for YOUR phone.
 
I mean look at the SGS variants
 
And about the customer service.
I had no problem calling samsung for a repair, and had LOADS of problems contacting apple.
That said, Apple acted upon their mistake - and samsung returned my phone, with no changes.


Quote:

One huge problem I have with Apple though, is how they totally disregard practically all large hardware/software issues consumers tend to face.  They always say that there's no problem at all, then quietly fix it in a software update or hardware revision without telling anyone about it, or by calling it a new "feature."  It's just really bad PR to always do that...

Well, it seriously annoyed me, when a dev found a bug - didn't exploit it and showed it to the world: "look ios CAN get malware" and what did apple do?
No, not thank him, and not give him a free phone (Like samsung did to cyanogenMod) - but instead chose to BAN the guy...
If anything, and I was that guy i would turn around and create malware for them.
 
 

 

[mutabor]

I live in Asia and all that disputes Apple vs Others seem very distant for me. We don't have 3G yet, we don't have carrier plans which means you have to buy a smartphone for the full price. Like many people here I still have a Nokia feature phone and I have never used any smartphone. 
 
There are geeks in my country and in Russia too who are raising the flame wars just like their guru geeks in the West. Their discussions are pretty funny because 99% of users here are pirates who download content from torrents for free. Apple ecosystem? O really? We don't have media services like in the US that we can use on our smartphones or tablets through apps. 
 
What about laptops I think that Apple offerings especially their Macbook Airs are great but still expensive. If you can't afford a laptop over $1000 budget then Apple is a no go territory for you. I'm currently using a Sony 15.5 which I bought for around $700. 

 

[Totally Dubbed]

This is something my friend mentioned yesterday:
The indian market is HUGE - yet the iphone is marketed at the same price we buy it in the EU.
 
Meaning a lot can't afford it.
So they end up buying Nokia's and other brands.
If Apple were a little more understanding of the populations demographic, not only could they boost their popularity in certain parts of the world, but could also increase their market share/profit margins.
 
China & India are HUGE markets.
Nokia I think is the no1 over there - I'm only guessing here.
The first smartphone manufacturer to actually break those markets - is the real winner.

 

[mutabor]

Quote:

China & India are HUGE markets.
Nokia I think is the no1 over there - I'm only guessing here.
The first smartphone manufacturer to actually break those markets - is the real winner.

You are right. Nokia is very popular there because it makes cheap but decent quality feature phones just for calls. Apple remains a luxury brand there while in the US it is not anymore. You can buy an iPhone on contract for cheap in the US. Where I live you have to buy an iPhone for $700-800 and then you will pay for the services additionally.
 

 

[Totally Dubbed]

The price of the Iphone here in the UK - but still around £450. = $700
So the price is the same all across the board.
Possibly cheaper in the US...but then again -what isn't cheaper in the US? lol
 
Currawong, I think is situated in Japan - he could probably give us the best Asian market report