[roy_jones]

Well, I'm going to try to be as brief as possible, while still making and effort to communicate the amount of emotion and disappointment that has gone on throughout the process for everyone involved, what this thread is about.

A couple of months ago, myself and another head-fier worked out a deal for a pair of modded ATH-W100 headphones with L3000 drivers. After some time they got shipped to me here in Canada, and I was able to take a listen. I was floored!! They sounded fantastic. But wait...."what's this I'm hearing?"
There's more sound coming out of the left driver, vs. the right side. For a variety of reasons this caused more problems than it maybe should have.

There have most definitely been mistakes by both the seller and myself throughout the process of trying to figure out how this could've happened, who should be responsible for what, etc... and to do so when there is a LOT of money involved...you can imagine that

The bottom-line being that it appears that this was just an accident, and the seller has been working along with me to try to find another pair of drivers to replace the apparently faulty ones that occured during shipping.

This is the problem. These L3000 drivers are scarce. We're prepared to pay what it would take to get a matched pair, and we're also willing to give the current pair that are in the headphones as we speak. The one appears to be damaged- but there have been cases of people with some expertise being able to salvage such drivers.

So really what this boils down to is an appeal to the head-fi community for any help or creative ideas as to how this mini-disaster can be salvaged. I will personally donate $25 US to head-fi for whoever steps forward with a possible solution to this. I would donate more, but I'm literally broke. It really has been a drain on me emotionally over this last few weeks since this happened. I'm a college student who figured I could risk investing in some high end headphones for six months, and then sell them off and recover most of what I paid for them when I need to pay for the end of my second semester.

As it stands now, I am screwed financially as a result of this. I'm not trying to portray a sob story here- I was stupid enough to underrate the risk you take when you ship something overseas...so believe me, I'm resposible for it in part.

Is there any way that the community can pull together on this, and just offer whatever insights or possible solutions we might not have thought of, that could make a big difference for me and the seller in trying to get this figured out?

Alex (AKzip) has already volunteered to do the actual physical work that needs to be done on the headphones, whether it be switching drivers, etc... so much thanks to Alex already for stepping up huge.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Well, I have a couple of thoughts.

First, was there insurance on the shipment? If so, you may still have time to make a claim. Look into that ASAP, like tonight if you have the paperwork around. You might not get the headphones repaired, but you could get reimbursed.

More importantly, do you have enough money to make it through the semester? That's what is really important here. Please reply and tell us. There should be a solution and you must stay in school. The headphones, while important, are secondary.

 

[Meyvn]

If it's JUST a channel imbalance and not some horrible degradation in sound quality, then simply put an attenuator on one channel.

 

[roy_jones]

The issue about insurance as far as the shipment brings up a dicey point of discussion between me and the seller. I don't want this to turn into a public forum on who made what mistakes that have led up to this. Suffice to say, there was no insurance on the package. Was that a mistake on my part? Absolutely.

I was stupidly trying to avoid getting hit by customs because I'd stretched my budget significantly to be able to just afford the headphones. That being said, in my communication with the seller I repeatedly made careful efforts to outline the importance of how necessary it was that the headphones be packed extremely well if we were going the 'no insurance' route. Unforunately, the seller was new to packing expensive items. Not his fault, he simply hadn't had the experience of what it meant to pack something that well, and was doing his best based on what he knew.

Just a series of events that led to a bad outcome that we all wish we could've prevented happening.

I appreciate the feedback at this point. I wish things weren't so dire. I can try to get emergency funding at my school if it comes to that, but I should be able to sell some stuff to try to make up the difference.

Only problem is that I'd bought an amp at the same time I bought these phones, and that arrived in damaged condition too, so whereas I would've just sold the amp immediately to start to try recoup funds, that is going to be delayed as I try to figure out a way to get the amp fixed. Just a series of unfortunate events. I'm not placing blame here, just outlining the issues and focusing on ways to solve problems.

That's the good thing about the community we have here- most of the time you know that everyone is operating under good faith, and knowing that, working out the details and trying to come up with solutions is a little less stressful than if this some faulty gear I'd bought out of the back of some guys van.

 

[El Condor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roy_jones The issue about insurance as far as the shipment brings up a dicey point of discussion between me and the seller. I don't want this to turn into a public forum on who made what mistakes that have led up to this. Suffice to say, there was no insurance on the package. Was that a mistake on my part? Absolutely. I was stupidly trying to avoid getting hit by customs because I'd stretched my budget significantly to be able to just afford the headphones. That being said, in my communication with the seller I repeatedly made careful efforts to outline the importance of how necessary it was that the headphones be packed extremely well if we were going the 'no insurance' route. Unforunately, the seller was new to packing expensive items. Not his fault, he simply hadn't had the experience of what it meant to pack something that well, and was doing his best based on what he knew. Just a series of events that led to a bad outcome that we all wish we could've prevented happening. I appreciate the feedback at this point. I wish things weren't so dire. I can try to get emergency funding at my school if it comes to that, but I should be able to sell some stuff to try to make up the difference. Only problem is that I'd bought an amp at the same time I bought these phones, and that arrived in damaged condition too, so whereas I would've just sold the amp immediately to start to try recoup funds, that is going to be delayed as I try to figure out a way to get the amp fixed. Just a series of unfortunate events. I'm not placing blame here, just outlining the issues and focusing on ways to solve problems. That's the good thing about the community we have here- most of the time you know that everyone is operating under good faith, and knowing that, working out the details and trying to come up with solutions is a little less stressful than if this some faulty gear I'd bought out of the back of some guys van.

Really sorry to hear you ran into such troubles. How much money was involved total just for the headphones if you don't mind me asking?

If it comes down to that, I can probably spare a $50 to $100 to help you out a bit.

I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing it again but it would be nice if it came back my way eventually when you can

.

 

[razer]

I remembered that www.bluetin.com carries Matched L3000 drivers. And they weren't really expensive. I think you should be able to get them for less than $150?

 

[Wmcmanus]

Maybe I'm not understanding everything here, but it seems to me that the drivers (or at least one of them) arrived to you in a DOA conditon. In other words, the headphones in your hands were not as described. Or was the damage caused after you began listening? This is where I'm confused.

It's pretty hard to blow a driver unless you cranked them up full blast and let them crank away for hours and days. Some poeple play their headphones too loudly when attempting to break them in since they're not actually listening to them.

I can't imagine how installed drivers would get damaged during the shipment if there was no other visible signs of damage to the package itself. In other words, if you didn't blow the driver(s) yourself through your own negligence, and if the package wasn't otherwise damaged during the shipment, it seems to me that they were shipped to you in damaged a condition to begin with.

I'm not (at all) saying that the seller would have been, or even should have been aware of this, so I'm not trying to point a finger to find "fault" as such. I guess it depends on to what extent the damage to the driver would have been immediately noticable to a casual listener. But assuming that it is fairly obvious (i.e., anyone can put them on and know that something is wrong) and they arrived to you in this conditon, then I'd say the seller is responsible for making it "right" to you one way or another.

This can be accomplished either by refunding the purchase price and taking the headphones back, or by paying for replacement drivers. Although they may be hard to find, it's my understanding that they're not impossible to find, and may even be available from AT directly. The cost may be prohibitive, in which case the seller should refund the purchase price, take the headphones back, and put some other more affordable drivers in them for himself.

I'd be interested in knowing how the 2 of you have arrived at who should be taking responsibility in this case. Perhaps you feel that you're both at fault to some extent and that the real problem lies with the shipping company that caused the damage? Had it been insured, it would be a different matter? Is that where you're both at with it?

....

Side story. Kind of off topic, but not really.

A similar situation happened to me once when I was a seller of a Shanling T100 CD player. The buyer, from Audiogon, claimed that when the player arrived, it malfunctioned in certain ways when using the remore control. It could well be that this was the case for the entire time that I had owed the player, but I rerely used the remote since I normally listen to CDs straight through from beginning to end. Yet, he claimed that when using the remote, the player skipped the first couple of notes of any song that he wanted to play and this caused a major annoyance.

Oddly enough, he had (by the time he notified me of this problem) already done the research as to how to fix the problem, and claimed that the one and only authorized Shanling repair person in the US knew exactly what part needed to be replaced, and the like. The cost was going to be about $200 to ship the player back and forth to the repair guy, and to pay for the part(s) and labor.

In this case, I couldn't know for sure whether or not the unit had left my possession in this condition but since he notifeid me rather quickly, I could only assume that it had. So the next step was to ask myself wheher it was reasonable for a buyer of a used CD player to expect it to work prefectly for all possible uses, or whether (instead) he should reasonablly be taking the risk that a used player may not work flawlessly down to every last detail like a new (and warrented) player would be expected to perform. The third question was whether he already knew of this possible, albeit very minor defect, when he bought the player from me, and thus was pulling a scam to get part of his purchase price back. The problem apparently occured on a fairly regular basis with this particular player, and it had been clear all along that he had researched this player extensively before deciding to buy it. So he could very well have known of this possibility from day one, but he seemed to be honest and sincere about everything. Hard to say.

Most people in my position, or so I was told when I raised the issue here, would not have paid for the $200 repair. First of all, it was an exceedingly minor and picky point, and 99% of all listeners can live without the first note or two of any particular track. On top of that, I really questioned how often he would be skipping around once a particular CD was loaded, but to each is own. Thirdly, there was no way I would ever know whether he even sent the thing in for repair (although, perhaps I could have paid the repairman directly to solve that issue).

But I didn't want him to be unhappy with this player that he had researched so carefully and dreamed about owning for so long, so I sent him $200 via PayPal and was done with it. In the meantime, my perfect Audiogon feedback still remains in tact, and I'm sure that wouldn't have been the case had I refused to pay for the repair. I was tempted to have him send the player back to me at my expense, mostly because I was suspicious about his motivations, but in the end, I felt that he was being honest, so I did the "right" thing and made him happy. He said that he would have returned the player, but preferred to keep it.

I sold it for $1,100 as I recall, so really only $900 net, minus my shipping cost of nearly $100 more, or $800 when all was said and done. I wish now that I wouldn't have sold it to begin with, or that I would have found a more reasonable buyer, but you have to face each situation in life one at a time as you encounter them. It's not always easy to do the right thing, and it often costs you more money that it reasonalbly should, but there you have it. Of course, had the proposed repair bill for such an exceedingly minor problem been $300 or $400 or $500, he would have been sending the player back to me and receiving a full refund! From my perspective, it was totally a non-issue because I never used the blasted remote!

How this impacts on your situation, I'm not entirely sure, but it seems to me that buyers should not be responsible for any "mysterious" damage that cannot be directly traced to either their own negligence (i.e., it broke after it arrived) or the negligence on the part of the shipper assuming that the buyer explicitly chose not to insure the package (to save the expense) and that it was VERY clear that shipping damage was the source of the problem (i.e., a severely damage box or the like). Failing either of those circumstances (i.e., where there is ANY question as to what may have caused the problem), the seller should be responsible for making it right to the buyer one way or another. Anything less is a faliure to live up to his end of the bargain (i.e., the goods were not delivered as described). All just my opinion, of course.

 

[Jokieman]

I'm not really sure how the driver could have been damaged without shell & box being damaged as well but I'll skip past this since it seems to be a moot point now.

I'm assuming that for tax reasons you turned down the seller's offer of insuring the package? In a situation like this I would suggest that the buyer and seller split the costs of repair. It seems to be the fair thing to do as both parties seem to be taking some responsibility for what happened. In the future Both the seller and the buyer would be wise not to ship anything without insurance, regardless of the circumstances, it's just too risky not to.

I understand you're situation with being broke, but to be honest about it, this isn't the sellers problem as I'm sure you know. I'm also sure you know that it's not very wise to spend the rent money on fun stuff, if you get my drift.

 

[3x331m]

What are the cans worth if you sell them, now ?

 

[IPodPJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Condor Really sorry to hear you ran into such troubles. How much money was involved total just for the headphones if you don't mind me asking? If it comes down to that, I can probably spare a $50 to $100 to help you out a bit. I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing it again but it would be nice if it came back my way eventually when you can .

Wow! Very generous of you to donate money to him.
I sure wish I had some donations to contribute to my Triple.Fi 10 pro and Go-Vibe amp fund.

He is very lucky that you offered such a generous proposal.
Kudos to you!

 

[krmathis]

I wish you guys luck getting hold of a matched L3000 drivers pair.
After all the headphones are no longer in production...

 

[terance]

meant to post my own topic. .sorry

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Condor Really sorry to hear you ran into such troubles. How much money was involved total just for the headphones if you don't mind me asking? If it comes down to that, I can probably spare a $50 to $100 to help you out a bit. I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing it again but it would be nice if it came back my way eventually when you can .

Well, I have to say that I'm floored that you would be so generous- thanks for your offer. The headphones were $800 US. At this point, I'm hoping that it might be possible to track down a set of drivers. I'll keep everyone updated as to how this process turns out. I do appreciate greatly even just the advise at this point, as it's a difficult thing to try to handle on your own.

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus Maybe I'm not understanding everything here, but it seems to me that the drivers (or at least one of them) arrived to you in a DOA conditon. In other words, the headphones in your hands were not as described. Or was the damage caused after you began listening? This is where I'm confused.

Needless to say, this was a big point of contention early on in the process. The headphones arrived in their damaged condition, and I didn't even connect at first that they could've been damaged during shipping. They were in their damaged state when I received them.

Quote:

It's pretty hard to blow a driver unless you cranked them up full blast and let them crank away for hours and days. Some poeple play their headphones too loudly when attempting to break them in since they're not actually listening to them. I can't imagine how installed drivers would get damaged during the shipment if there was no other visible signs of damage to the package itself. In other words, if you didn't blow the driver(s) yourself through your own negligence, and if the package wasn't otherwise damaged during the shipment, it seems to me that they were shipped to you in damaged a condition to begin with. I'm not (at all) saying that the seller would have been, or even should have been aware of this, so I'm not trying to point a finger to find "fault" as such. I guess it depends on to what extent the damage to the driver would have been immediately noticable to a casual listener. But assuming that it is fairly obvious (i.e., anyone can put them on and know that something is wrong) and they arrived to you in this conditon, then I'd say the seller is responsible for making it "right" to you one way or another.

It's been atleast a month (I think) since this all happened. I am completely unfamliar with headphone contruction for the most part. The headphones were packed poorly, but since they are modded W100's, they were packed in the plastic housing that regular W100's are shipped in. I'm not sure if you've seen them, but they're a plastic moulded casing that immobilizes the headphones.

There is no physical damage to the headphones themselves, whatsoever. I removed the pad to visually inspect the one side of the driver, and there was no evidence of damage. That may not mean anything, given my lack of knowledge of driver mechanics. The original builder of the headphones, after I shipped them to him for his inspection, said that there isn't anything observably wrong, but that it was damage "consistent with them having been dropped 3-4 feet during shipping".

Your process of reasoning was exactly as mine was. I assumed at first that the headphones had been in this condition prior to shipping. It is a difficult situation, because you don't want to unknowingly or unjustly start pointing fingers. There was no observable damage to the box itself, other than it was old to begin with.

What didn't help matters was that I'd actually been in negotiation with another member to trade these as soon as they arrived for his headphones, and he was quite deliberate in asking me to make sure the drivers were matched. He seemed very familiar with the history of these particular headphones, and the 'symptoms' he described of mismatched drivers sounded quite like what I was hearing when I first heard the damaged pair.

Quote:

This can be accomplished either by refunding the purchase price and taking the headphones back, or by paying for replacement drivers. Although they may be hard to find, it's my understanding that they're not impossible to find, and may even be available from AT directly. The cost may be prohibitive, in which case the seller should refund the purchase price, take the headphones back, and put some other more affordable drivers in them for himself. I'd be interested in knowing how the 2 of you have arrived at who should be taking responsibility in this case. Perhaps you feel that you're both at fault to some extent and that the real problem lies with the shipping company that caused the damage? Had it been insured, it would be a different matter? Is that where you're both at with it?

Part of the reason for my post was to get an idea of how other situations that have been somewhat like this, have been handled in the past by other head-fiers. In a situation like this, the worst feeling to have as a buyer is the 'caveat emptor' sense that, once things have changed hands, as well as time passes, that you're essentially going to be responsible. I'm not saying the seller has taken this approach. They were active in contacting the original builder of the headphones to see about having them inspected for damage and possibly repair. They've offered to split the cost of the drivers if we can find them.

My original request had been for a full refund and I would eat the cost of shipping back to their original destination. I don't blame him, if he felt that the headphones had been damaged during shipping, for not wanting to take on that problem.

In terms of the issue of shipping insurance...yes, there is much regret at this point that I didn't take it. The reason I didn't take it, was because I coudln't afford to pay the customs on the headphones. I am hesitant about saying too much at this point, because I don't want to only represent my opinion here, and skew the perceptions of the people reading this thread. I was very clear that IF I wasn't going to use insurance with these, THEN they needed to be packed impeccably. Unfortunately, the bottom line is that they were damaged when they arrived. Took me about 2 minutes listening to them to discover that.

 

[El Condor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by IPodPJ Wow! Very generous of you to donate money to him. I sure wish I had some donations to contribute to my Triple.Fi 10 pro and Go-Vibe amp fund. He is very lucky that you offered such a generous proposal. Kudos to you!

Well, if it can help him out of a bind then I'm glad to do it. It's important that he stays in school and if he's not able to recover the money, I don't mind letting some money go. I'm not too tight financially right now so it doesn't matter to me

.