A (better sounding?) alternative to Foobar2000 -OR- A musing in the realm of bit-perfect streaming

[leeperry]

you can indeed get a deep red in SMPTE-C

actually I really don't think you can: http://www.gottadance.org/images/video_gamuts/NTSC-vs-P22-vs-SMPTEC_clrBg.jpg
 
they went for the REC.709 gamut in HD for this very reason, too bad the movies are still mastered on SMPTE-C CRT's hah...and yet they try to feed us bs w/ their xvYCC extended gamut/Deep Color etc..
 
JVC and SONY refused to give infos to the SMPTE about their patented gamuts because it would have been an open standard...so the SMPTE was forced to use a patent-free gamut, too bad its deepest red is orangey...duh. Check the 10 pages thread on AVS, it's been thoroughly discussed.
 
I always calibrate my projectors in D65/2.4/SMPTE-C, and I have yet to see big saturated reds: http://www.adobe.com/products/adobemag/archive/pdfs/98auhtbf.pdf

 SMPTE-C has the smallest gamut

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14085137&postcount=97

 Primaries can be brought in electronically, but they cannot be pushed out electronically.

 I'm likely to use REC.709 not because I think it reproduces what they saw, but because I dislike the limited unlike real life orangish red of SMPTE-C. I don't claim that is correct though

 I also like how they use oversaturated REC.709 demos to sell flat screens, when all the movies are actually SMPTE-C. There's as much bs going on in the video world as there in the audio

 

[MrRoderick]

In doing some tests with my friend, i think an importance note came up, as i was saying earlier, about the differences between the players. Its hard to choose which one is better, but the truth is, they can be very, very different. The song '84 pontiac dream' by Boards of Canada sounded so different that i could tell from outside the earcups while he was listening. So, to rephrase, my interest is a. why they are different, and b. what can be considered the more qualitative result. And i'm soon to try reclock, to see that is, as well as do that more thorough DBT. And dear lord, lets not get started on TV's cause... yeah.

 

[Draca]

@Lee: there's still a fairly deep red at the end of the range for SMPTE-C - I only have a 17" Macbook LEDlit LCD so I can't really test that for sure. I'm going to trust you on that point though.
 
Edit: Not all studios use SMPTE-C as their standard?
 
However going back to the software players, any reason why you've changed your opinion in this thread compared to "http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/246554/xxhighend-player-for-vista-and-xp-better-than-foobar". It seems you've done a complete 180* spin in opinion from that thread to this one? You even denigrated the idea of 'golden ears' and clearly differentiated between opamps and the digital bit-perfect world in that previous thread.
 
A bit weird that you're playing devil's advocate now?

 

[donunus]

Quote:

Try XMplay
It sounds great, it's very small and memory efficient; 

I used to use that before and loved it at first but in the end I felt that it was a little bright and lacked a wee bit of bass. Also used Jriver at the time, it was good in a luscious and rich way. I felt it enveloped me with music better. In the end, with windows 7, foobar although ever so slightly worse sounding just had the right features I needed. When I get uber cans like hd800s and up though I will not compromise on sound quality any more and will get the best sounding player out there regardless of interface

 

[leeperry]

any reason why you've changed your opinion

 
Well done, Sherlock!

 
yes, I've changed my mind...because bit-perfect doesn't mean ****. I tried XXHighEnd ages ago on an M-Audio soundcard, and the sound was so different that I couldn't believe it was bit-perfect. But apparently, it was?!
 
The M-Audio Audiophile USB card has bit-perfect WaveOut drivers(like RME and so), you can get KS in any application basically...I never really bothered w/ anything else at the time.
 
Then I've read ppl raving about Reclock for audio: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/438010/tutorial-wasapi-support-for-kmplayer-having-a-top-notch-video-audio-player

Comparing to foobar2k with WASAPI plug-in the difference in sound quality is HUGE ! (relatively) You don't need to listen several time to hear a little difference its really strike at you !
 

  
and I was still very skeptical...then I asked James to fix Reclock for audio playback(a few bugs were still in the way like buffering would trim the start of each audio file, etc), and I got pretty blown away by the SQ difference

  
Being skeptical is good, changing your mind after real world experiments is just as good

 

[donunus]

Quote:

 
 
Being skeptical is good, changing your mind after real world experiments is just as good

I agree with this 100%
 
...and I agree that foobar is not close to being the best player in the sound quality/transparency front either... I'm just using it because I like the colums ui interface and the bs2b xfeed hehehe

 

[Freeze]

I use mediamonkey. I love it.

 

[Hybrys]

Quote:

In doing some tests with my friend, i think an importance note came up, as i was saying earlier, about the differences between the players. Its hard to choose which one is better, but the truth is, they can be very, very different. The song '84 pontiac dream' by Boards of Canada sounded so different that i could tell from outside the earcups while he was listening. So, to rephrase, my interest is a. why they are different, and b. what can be considered the more qualitative result. And i'm soon to try reclock, to see that is, as well as do that more thorough DBT. And dear lord, lets not get started on TV's cause... yeah.

MAKE SURE you're volume matching.  Since it sounds to me like you're confusing higher volume with quality.  Before I did my DBT (that turned up nothing, by the way) I volume matched each player, and had an hour sighted with each player.  Then I subjected my roommate to the DBT, and his conclusion matched mine, no differences, as he did about as good as chance and came to that conclusion aswell.

 

[Draca]

I really think a lot of the differences people are finding are volume or DSP.

 

[leeperry]

all the players we're talking about are 100% bit-perfect. Thinking is good, trying and comparing on your own gear is good too.

 

[Draca]

I've already compared, lee - and found no difference.
 
Did you use an SPL meter when comparing yours?

 

[leeperry]

I can't say that I have, no. But I've exchanged a hell lot of messages w/ both uLilith's and Reclock's coders and these 2 players don't do any DSP whatsoever. I even helped to improve Reclock's audio conversion code as it was slightly off, and I got a professional VST plugin coder to fix it.
 
if there's one thing you will find in those 2 players, it's a perfect audio pipeline w/ highly accurate conversions.
 
did you try XXHighEnd? this sounds drastically different from foobar, even a child can DBT it as posted earlier.

 

[digger945]

Quote:

 
  
and I was still very skeptical...then I asked James to fix Reclock for audio playback(a few bugs were still in the way like buffering would trim the start of each audio file, etc), and I got pretty blown away by the SQ difference

  
Being skeptical is good, changing your mind after real world experiments is just as good

Agreed. We really gotta try stuff to know what it's gonna sound like.
KMplayer with Reclock is.... different, for sure. I just downloaded everything and have listened for maybe an hour. Noticably smooth, it is.
 
I must have something set wrong somewhere. The volume goes up and down a little sometimes, especially at the beginnning of a song.
 

 

[Draca]

Quote:

I can't say that I have, no. But I've exchanged a hell lot of messages w/ both uLilith's and Reclock's coders and these 2 players don't do any DSP whatsoever. I even helped to improve Reclock's audio conversion code as it was slightly off, and I got a professional VST plugin coder to fix it.
 
if there's one thing you will find in those 2 players, it's a perfect audio pipeline w/ highly accurate conversions.
 
did you try XXHighEnd? this sounds drastically different from foobar, even a child can DBT it as posted earlier.

 
Sorry but you need to use an SPL meter. Otherwise the differences you've supposedly heard are worth nothing.
 

 

[donunus]

Quote:

Agreed. We really gotta try stuff to know what it's gonna sound like.
KMplayer with Reclock is.... different, for sure. I just downloaded everything and have listened for maybe an hour. Noticably smooth, it is.
 
I must have something set wrong somewhere. The volume goes up and down a little sometimes, especially at the beginnning of a song.
 

Yes kmplayer does sound smoother. I really liked its sound except some aac files changed in levels quite a bit compared to foobar and other players. Its as if there were some hidden replaygain thing going on.
 
About the levels argument.... more experienced ears can automatically volume match by listening to the vocals volume for example and matching from there. If the other frequencies are lower in volume like the bass or treble compared to another player at the same vocal volume level then the players don't sound the same... simple as that. The spl meter talk is just for enhancement for those that are less experienced with this stuff and don't know what to focus on when listening.