[Wedge]

Quote:

I buy the "fancy" 6SN7's from Paul Lindemann over on Audiogon.  His stuff is the real deal. 

Skylab, do you get your Mullard's from him as well?  I am really interested in buying a pair of Mullard ECC32s.  If you wouldn't mind divulging your source and around how much you think they go for.

 

[Skylab]

I bought my ECC32's from Brendan at Tubeworld. When I bought them they were going for $400/pair for NOS. These days though they seem to be going for $600/pair. even used ones on EBay seem to be going for $350+ a pair these days. Sometimes you can get the ones branded Chelmer Valve for a little less.

 

[InnerSpace]

Quote:

 
Would you divulge where you might find the so-called second- and third-tier 6SN7s?
 

For a good overview, visit Brent Jessee's site (audiotubes.com) and scroll down the 6SN7 page until you get to the $30-ish tubes.  You'll find plenty there - weird OEM labels, tiny differences between one tube and a more famous brother, non-militarized versions (is your amp really next to a working howitzer?) and so on.  The NOS market is to some extent driven by names, labels, and herd instinct, and you can find virtual twins where one goes for $300 and the other goes for $30.
 
And remember the 6SN7 more than many other tubes was (primarily) sold for one highly specific and highly specified task (well, two actually, one side each) deep inside old fashioned TV sets.  They either worked properly, or they didn't.  No shades of gray.  Audio use was never their primary purpose, so they lived or died in a far less subjective universe.  So while enthusiasts celebrate their differences, their differences are pretty small compared to many other tubes, and definitely very small compared to the other parts and components we live with on a daily basis.

 

[Skylab]

Actually, in terms of physical construction differences, the 6SN7 has a remarkably wide variety, much more than most tube types. The 6DJ8, by comparison, has only very minor differences between the versions people seem willing to pay big bucks for, and the ones you can still easily get for $25 each.

Given that the very cheapest of current production tubes go for about $20, many 6SN7's are indeed a bargain, that's for sure. I have a ton of Sylvania 6SN7WGT's I bought for $25 each NOS. That's about what the current production Russian 6SN7's cost, and the Sylvanias sound much better.

But you can get vintage Russian 6SN7 equivalents for $5 each NOS, and these don't sound bad at all. One for sure does not have to spend huge bucks for decent tubes. I do think some 6N7's sound notably better than others, but the circuit they are used in matters more.

 

[KingStyles]

 
Quote:

Skylab, do you get your Mullard's from him as well?  I am really interested in buying a pair of Mullard ECC32s.  If you wouldn't mind divulging your source and around how much you think they go for.

I ended up paying $500 for my set of ecc32. That was through a private source so I would imagine they would be more through shops. I saw some a couple of weeks ago on ebay going for about $400.
 
I have better luck buying tubes on ebay than anywhere else. The tubes have always been nos (that I can tell) and cheaper than anywhere else. The good tubes tend to go in streaks. Check ebay, audiogon, etc everyday and you will find what you want eventually. What I cant find today, next month I will be able to find 10 of them.
 
On another note, I think the tung-sol BPRG is over rated.They are fast and detailed and neutral from top to bottom, but they lack any richness or warmth making them boring. If you want a solid state amp sound, than this is the tube for you. If you want a rich, textured, or warm, sound, then you better look elsewhere.

 

[Wedge]

I have to agree, I noticed the NOS tubes tend to sound better by quite a bit in some cases.  A very noticeable difference.  I am very unsure whether its worth an almost $550 in some cases.  Thanks for the info Skylab.

 

[rosgr63]

Another under ratted tube is the Westinghouse 6SN7GTB Flat Black or Grey Plates, Tall Bottle.
Worth a try.

 

[Skylab]

 
Quote:

 
I ended up paying $500 for my set of ecc32. That was through a private source so I would imagine they would be more through shops. I saw some a couple of weeks ago on ebay going for about $400.
 
I have better luck buying tubes on ebay than anywhere else. The tubes have always been nos (that I can tell) and cheaper than anywhere else. The good tubes tend to go in streaks. Check ebay, audiogon, etc everyday and you will find what you want eventually. What I cant find today, next month I will be able to find 10 of them.
 
On another note, I think the tung-sol BPRG is over rated.They are fast and detailed and neutral from top to bottom, but they lack any richness or warmth making them boring. If you want a solid state amp sound, than this is the tube for you. If you want a rich, textured, or warm, sound, then you better look elsewhere.

I prefer the ECC32 over the TS BGRP, where I can use them.  It's important to note that the ECC32 is NOT a 6SN7.  It can often be used in place of a 6SN7, but it draws 50% more heater current, so you have to make sure the amp's power transformer can handle that.
 
I asked Cary if I could use the ECC32 in my SLP-05 preamp, and while they said yes, the fact is they don't really fit in the Cary's tube sockets which are recessed below the chassis top.  I do use them in my RSA Stealth, but I had to remove the decorative tube socket accents to do so.

 

[KingStyles]

 
Quote:

I prefer the ECC32 over the TS BGRP, where I can use them.  It's important to note that the ECC32 is NOT a 6SN7.  It can often be used in place of a 6SN7, but it draws 50% more heater current, so you have to make sure the amp's power transformer can handle that.

Just curious if you find the treble on the ecc32 a little thin or odd sounding. When I hear cymbols and highhats, they dont have any shimmer or metalic sound to them. They sound dampened.

 

[Skylab]

I can't say that I have ever noticed that, no. But since the ECC32 is different from the 6N7, it may react differently in some circuits that others. But where I have used it, in the RSA Stealth and the Singlepower MPX3 and Extreme, I never noticed it. I rally wish I could use them in my Cary preamp, but they just won't fit.

 

[InnerSpace]

Quote:

Actually, in terms of physical construction differences, the 6SN7 has a remarkably wide variety, much more than most tube types.

Yes, I certainly didn't mean that all 6SN7s look the same or are built the same.  There is variety, indeed, all the more interesting in that every one of them was designed and re-designed to do exactly the same tightly-specified non-audio job.  (Voltage and current specs altered three times, I believe, as CRTs got bigger.)  That - when pressed into audio service, which happened quite quickly - they sounded different from one another was a happy accident.  My point was that whereas many tube types were audio-specific, and hence revisited between versions with at least part of an ear on sound quality, 6SN7 development was constrained by technical demands quite different from audio.  Thus, while there are (happily accidental even if fairly pronounced) differences between them, I believe the 6SN7's overall span from "best" to "worst" is narrower than that for many other tubes, making random NOS choices a little safer than might be expected.

 

[Skylab]

That all makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification. I do agree that I have really not run into a NOS 6SN7 that sounds flat out BAD (assuming it tests good!).

What is also fascinating to me, in light of what you said above, is that all current production 6SN7 types are in fact being manufactured just for audio, and yet, none of them sound very good to me, and some, like the EH, sound bloody awful.

 

[InnerSpace]

Quote:

What is also fascinating to me, in light of what you said above, is that all current production 6SN7 types are in fact being manufactured just for audio, and yet, none of them sound very good to me, and some, like the EH, sound bloody awful.

Agreed.  Although I felt the new Sophia was pretty good.  (And very handsome physically.)  It was maybe a tad bass-light and a little too airy.  Strange soundstage, though - incredibly deep, but extremely narrow.  Like wearing a canoe on your head.
 
I think the reason is simply "design drift" ... the old CRT imperatives are long gone, and the discipline they imposed therefore no longer exists, and therefore the new manufacturers - with no institutional memory or data - are kind of wandering with no fixed parameters to guide them.  The 6SN7's job was specific and difficult - and crucial: anyone here remember how annoying it was when a TV picture was rolling vertically?  Those criteria were fixed points.  Without them, anything can happen, mostly for the worst.

 

[Skylab]

Agreed on all counts about the Sophia. Ultimately, though, not worth the money, since I felt even a "basic" Sylvania 6SN7GTB sounded better overall.

And I see your point about "design drift". This is certainly the case with the new Shuggie "CV181", which other than looking like one somewhat, actually isn't a CV181/ECC32 at all.

 

[InnerSpace]

Quote:

Agreed on all counts about the Sophia. Ultimately, though, not worth the money, since I felt even a "basic" Sylvania 6SN7GTB sounded better overall.
 

It was the Sylvanias that prompted my point.  Lots of versions over thirty or so years, and while you can have preferences, you can't really go wrong.