[music_man]

got them. had to bring them back to work with me.

first i sat them on top of some small genelec's. the genelec's walked all over them. that's no surprise. then after a few different a/b's i came to the red reveal's. now keep in mind eveanna manley used to love these. in some areas these beat the reveal's(control) in most other areas the reveal's take them down. again. no surprise. i think these might be the best speakers under $100 per pair right now. go up to $300 and beyond they will get clobbered. again. no surprise there.

i think i have found a use for them though! they can replace ns10's(that's saying something, but not about good sound mind you). i think these represent what the average consumer would consider a big upgrade over what they currently have. at least the averegae bb shopper. in comparisen ,bb also had klipsch(not the horns of yore) and sony, these easily beat those.

i can use these for monitoring to get an idea of how material will sound on an "average hi-fi". to that end i think they do actually serve better than ns10's.

the fact that they made them coaxial of all things is actually amazing in and of itself regardless of their sound. coax drivers(and i don't mean car audio from jensen) are usually more than $500 for each driver! tannoy's higher end units are coax although many people(including) myself like the 2 ways better. so seeing them actually not fall flat on their face next to the reveal was impressive to say the least.

however! i personally would not listen to these for pleasure if gr lined them with gold. but to be fair i have been weened on speakers of the ilk mentioned in my post above.

if someone tells me how to get the baffles off without destroying them i am willing to stick a couple of polypro's in there and replace the egg crate with polycloud. i think those two simple things will make a big difference. the driver is actually rather impressive all considering. i want to try that $8 of stuff since i think gr got too carried away. for that price and amount of labor i'd look elsewhere.

it still remains that a minimum of $400(per pair) is going to be your ticket into entry level audiophile loudspeakers. as far as i can see. if you are doing surround i do not see any problem with these in back. that was what they were designed for(by the manufacturer stated here) anyhow.

one thing these speakers do very well is make you understand why much more expensive speakers are better in most cases. something that is very intresting is that i doubt an average bb shopper could hear the difference between these and the reveals. however, i am sure they could hear the difference between the insignia's and watt/puppys. then tell them the prices and bb has made yet another sale. you must realise that people on forums like this are a minority. most people would be elated with these. i did not mention the wilsons to be a fool(so no flames nescessary). i was making a point about the average consumer, thats all.

btw, the only speaker cables i could find not in use cost 20 times what the speakers did, lol.

music_man

 

[ooheadsoo]

I don't think you can take the baffle off, but you should be able to unscrew the drivers without any difficulty. Lining the cabinet is one thing, strengthening it with filler is another, both should be beneficial, but I'd definitely do the filler if I had to pick just one. Replacing xover parts with standard quality components rather than the fraction of a cent bulk buy parts would be interesting for not too much money. GR only deals in top notch quality parts and they do things whole hog - I wouldn't buy their kit, nor do they advertise it. It's just an option. I'm sure there have been more than one free for public use alternative xovers schematics published for the speaker on diyaudio's or madisound's or partsexpress's or hometheaterforum's forums. If you can do the work and buy regular xover parts, why not? If I had the speakers, I'd do the cabinet damping and find an alternative xover schematic to wire up. Wouldn't take too much money with your run of the mill solen caps etc. Bypass them with cheapie small value soniccaps.

Most of all, mod them for fun and experience. If you don't want to work at it and spend hours of your time because the opportunity costs are too great, look elsewhere. Unless you're relatively experienced, it might take an afternoon's worth or more.

 

[lini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundboy (...) What you need to know is the low-frequency limits of your speakers. (...)

Not really. With bookshelf Wharfedales, we can safely exspect these to easily hit 100 - 80 Hz without much loss in level, anyway. The actual -3 or -6 dB point or whatever of the Wharfedales is relatively unimportant - one would rather tune crossover frequency, volume and phase on the sub by ear. Mostly because room & placement will have quite a big impact on those settings - but is also depends on the individual amp/speaker & sub combo, how much offloading off bass work to the sub will be beneficial to the sound.

Greetings from Hannover!

Manfred / lini

 

[music_man]

i do not see any screws on the driver. in gr's picture he has the shiny baffle off. does anyone know how to get the driver out?

in all honesty i don't know if it is worth it. yes, they are very good for $35-$50. i'd just leave it at that. most people should be able to afford $400 speakers. if you get the right $400 speakers and another $75 of parts you may very well have $1,000 speakers on your hands. i just don't see these giving that kind of return. they may be fancy looking but i can't see transforming them into even sounding like $400 stock units let alone $400 slightly modded units. for instance the reveal(which is a true bargain as is nht) already comes stock with poly caps and other good components. now upgrade those to oil and paper and go to thicker inductors etc. you start having some serious equipment on the cheap. these insignias i feel are too cheap to even work with. the real problem is the mess they made slotting the case. i don't mean to be a foofoo but it's just not there even though i kind of hoped it was. they sure do look like $800 speakers though. if they did the whole cabinet in the gloss like the front they would look like $2,000 speakers. but this isn't about looks as far as i am concerned.

i put them up against some old bose and klh's (both under $100 ten years or so ago) and both easily beat these beleive it or not. those two aformentioned speakers do not even have a proper xover. like a cap and inductor glued to the spring terminal(no binding posts even). well thats all these have really it just so happens to be on a pcb which is intresting. they might have figured people would open them and it would hit the net. pretty smart marketing actually. they were also easily taken by 10 year old infinitys and jbl's of that price. of course today those companies products will be beaten by these insignia's.

i doubt i will return them since it was a gift card and i really hate that place.
i did manage to get a decent coax cable there believe it or not.

what i said about the wamm before was kind of stupid in retrospect. but i don't see why the chinese could not charge $500 at retail and make us some dynaudio special 25's(or sonus faber concertinos) for this size speaker. that i would be running to buy. it probably exists already. clue me in?

anyhow, for the person that only has $50 i'd go get lunch. seriously though check pawn shops. if you know what you are looking at you would be surprised what turns up for 50 smackers. just make sure they are healthy.

intrestingly i find pawn shops a lot more welcoming than bb. yeah, i am weird.

music_man

 

[ooheadsoo]

That's why I haven't bothered, either. I'm just not in the market for an entry level speaker, be it $35 or $1000 (commercial.) You do have to get lucky at pawn shops though. A simple refoam job will cost you the price of the insignias, and that's if you do it yourself. Not sure I agree with you about the OIP caps, but to each his own.

Issues with China include quality control, management, and market. AFAIK, the well run shops are all O&O (owned and operated) by foreign companies/investors. On the other hand, surely you have heard of the Aurum Cantus Leisure monitors which cost around $400 before shipping and the Red Rose Music Mark Levinson monitor which costs $2000. Same speaker. These kind of things're out there, but come on, this is audio, where people regular disregard measurements and go with whatever floats their boat. Who really believes that the Aurum Cantus Leisure bookshelf is REALLY the same as the Red Rose bookshelf? Same goes with a bunch of the big name amplifier companies like korsun and dussun and their krell counterparts costing 10-20x more. To run this kind of operation in China where a product costs somewhere in the hundreds of dollars range, you need to be either filthy rich (corrupt or govt or both and most likely have no interest in running an honest company) or foreign, in which case, you'll probably sell it for what the market will pay, not $500, and if you have good management, it'll be hard for them to sneak around and sell aurum cantus leisure bookshelves behind your back. Not too sure what's going on there, anyhow, you may know by now that Aurum Cantus is now an extremely well known manufacturer of ribbon tweeters, but these bookshelves using one of their ribbons surfaced well before they found their niche.

Well, there really are too many economic factors to say anything definitive without writing a book.

Btw, I don't know if this was mentioned but you can easily diy your own blackhole5 or norez by using heavy vinyl tiles and chopped carpet foam or more expensive foam if you want to get spendy for no real reason. I recommend using extra glue on the tiles from experience.

I don't know how to take off the shiny baffle but I suspect it has to do with removing the grill mounts.

And btw, I know this has probably been posted, but here it is again, anyway:
Zaph's measurements and xover suggestions
DLR's driver tweaks
I should probably note that if you try DLR's driver mods, don't do Zaph's xover, wait for DLR's xover that deals with the modded woofer.

 

[music_man]

honestly i just want to return them, but i hate that friggen place.

the aurum is even fancier looking then the insignias. this chinese stuff is all flash. smoke and mirrors. personally i am not in the market for this stuff either.

when you buy wilson,mk,jm,bw you know what you are getting.
i mean come on, a focal or scanspeak tweeter is 5-10 times the price of those speakers. like i said, at least 3 parties are making a profit here. i really don't want to be party to this myself. not for political reasons though. i'd rather just cut through the maze and get the quality product in the first place.

a micro utopia be doesnt even look this flashy but it will send these packing right back to china. sure, it is a "little" more money but you get what you pay for.

mark levinson is putting his name on this kind of stuff now? man, i have so totally lost faith in him. first the lexus. now this? madrigal used to be the last word in hi-fi. now it is a stinking harmon product. he is selling his name to everyone.

which brings me right back to the pawn shop! i personally know what i am looking at. for folks that do not, forget that idea. the reason i go there is because mark levinson of years gone by is a whole heck of a lot nicer than todays ml. same with krell and all the others. what is wrong with getting a pair of kef 107/5 for $200 and reconing or new surround diy for another $200?
i recently got magnaplanars with destroyed fabric for $350. had them reupholstered for another $150. this type of stuff is going to serve as much better bargains than to go sniffing out deals at a local bb store.

why no oip caps? the tannoys actually have mylar. i thought they were poly. upon more scrutiny, the tannoys turn the insignias into sawdust. of course that is no surprise. at the time people couldn't believe those were only $400.
pretty much every speaker i own will stomp on these. i am including ones that were this price over 10 years ago.

anyone that is in the market for(new) $50 speakers, this is it. just don't go thinking you are buying anything remotely "reference" class. you cannot make them reference class either regardless of what you do to them. by reference class i mean stereophile 'a' list. these wouldn't even get an 'f' if it existed. i would not by any means go sink another $100 into modding these. that is futile.

ok, sorry for once to be unhappy with something

i think the problem is just my usual "standards". many bb shoppers will love these.

edit: it is the grill mounts holding the bafle, and some really sticky glue. once apart these are even less impressive than they sound. you are not finding dove tails here. no sir. you aint finding a puppy tail either(if you know wilsons you get that). anyhow, they are still impressive for 50 bucks. just keep in mind what 50 bucks normally buys in a pair of loudspeakers.

oh, and i am a 500 member now

music_man

 

[ooheadsoo]

Aurum cantus full size ribbon tweets run around $250-350 each, so I'm not sure what you mean by them being flash. They're the real deal, and I'd roughly guesstimate that half of the speaker diyers using ribbon tweeters are choosing the aurum cantus models due to their performance and measurements. The retail on a scanspeak tweeter is in the same ballpark and manufacturers no doubt get it for around $50-100 in bulk.

On the other hand, Chinese products can look good for no extra money because labor is practically free in terms of USD.

It all depends on what you're trying to get out of a speaker. The only reason I find the insignia interesting is because of the power response, polar response, and imaging afforded by a concentric design. If you're looking for fidelity, look elsewhere.

 

[music_man]

ok. i didn't realise aurum was actually a quality product. i thought it was just good looking. so this is the same as the red rose? and where did ml put his name on that? i don't see it on their site.

i am sure there are great looking speakers from well known high end manufacturers like the dynaudio special 25 or sonus faber concertino that will be a much more solid investment. it is like the plethora of chinese microphones on the market. they are fun and intresting but if you want a telefunken look elsewhere.

i don't know anything about the aurum, but i am wary of any product from china that costs 1/5th. of competing products from established countries.
like you said, management,quality control etc. the savings does not come without cost unfortunately. this is in regard to $500 products, not $50 ones mind you.

i am not in the market for something like this anyhow so it doesnt matter to me.

i was intrested to see what the hype was about. the fact that it is coaxial is pretty cool for the money. however, the sound is marginal at best.
i do think that to an average bb shopper these would sound terrific though.
these people are coming from plastic computer speakers. which i may point out can cost as much as the insignias and they are at least better than those.

one thing i do not hear is the imaging you speak of. i did expect that from a coaxial. but i think i expected a little to much since as far as coax is concerned i a/b'd them with $3,000 tannoy's. incedently i find the tannoy's to be the best coax design. better than the kef's which i think have gone the way of everything else these days, south. tannoy is pro gear so it has stayed in it's roots. it also has a super tweeter on top. not a fair comparisen at all, i know this. also m&k that i use professionally which is a standard 2 way with small driver arrays, has imaging that has you looking behind your back in a 2 channel system. what the heck did i expect from these? it is not like when everyone says k701's are going to be great. it was unlikely to begin with that those would let too many people down.

these are if nothing else a lesson in the economics of emerging countries. i think this product represents china very well at the moment. i do not mean that in a derogatory way by any means. in fact, to the contrary.

i don't really see a reason to keep them though. even though i dread going back in there. they offer nothing to someone like me other than intresting observation.

on the other hand, the chinese cable that i got(other than it's stinky solder job) is a keeper. cables seemingly require different manufacturing practices and actually can be made decent for cheap. it is not a nordost by any means, but i bet something like audioquest is simply marked up to 5x it's actual manufacturing cost. so with that in mind, taking less of a profit or using less expensive labor(evident from the solder job) can make them competitive. good loudspeakers take hours/days of labor and even at chinese prices would exclude them from stores like bb and cc which is their niche market. audiophiles are not looking for stuff like this ,or shopping at bb or cc. i found going in there an intresting experience in and of it self. 20 kinds of offensive music blasting at once, lol.

the fact that bb has actually commissioned the insignia line (of cheap chinese produced) products also shows how large of a market share a place like bb controls. you did mention having to be filthy rich to do something like this. i assume the proprietors of bb are indeed.

music_man

 

[ooheadsoo]

Btw, the price I'm quoting on the aurum ribbon is with one middleman only, aurum + distributor afaik.

If you go to the redrosemusic.com website, the far right column mentions Mark Levinson's name right off the bat. I don't think anyone knows if it's the real red rose deal, and aurum certainly doesn't claim that it is. 5 or so years ago, before aurum cantus became well known, it just happened to be that these aurum cantus speakers were available via Hong Kong and were, as far as anyone could tell, 100% identical to the red rose. I'm not sure they offer it in the same finish, any more. There was quite a buzz about these for a year or so in certain circles, I'm sure ML/Redrose dealt with it in a way that was satisfactory for both parties since they're both still here.

The speakers are good for the price, I don't know if you can expect a whole lot more. The fact is that if you just need to use these for HT, and for the average listener who just wants to enjoy music and isn't a nitpicking fanatic or an pro sound guy, or wanna be music guy like me, it'd probably do just fine. In my own HT, I'm happy as a clam with my cheapo polks that I use in 4 channel surround for a grand total of $135 or so. Sounds fantastic for what I ask of it. I don't listen to music and nitpick them, and it works for me. I save that for my 2 channel rig, and I curse my room acoustics every day.

Btw, there's chinese direct and merely made in china. I'm not sure if you're distinguising. Scanspeaks are made in china.

 

[music_man]

that is a very good point. china direct is a whole different quality than comissioned "jobbed out" products. even made in china per certain specs and with a direct handle on qc like presonus is fine quality. shanling themsleves is better than what they sell to other companies to market.

i think chinese factories do have the technology to make top quality high end products. it is just that normally china is associated with products like the insignia rather than aurum or scanspeak. the quality chinese products are certainly out there, it is just that they are not mainstream yet.

in a while china could be producing products like sony did in the eighties. look at sony now. it's evolution. sony was once unheard of rubbish then it became great. now it has settled down to average consumer electronics. maybe china will follow. i am not one to predict these things. i am not an economist. i do find it intresting, and for someone in this hobby to get in on the ground floor is not bad at all for us(audiophiles).

i am sure plenty of people missed out on $300 sony products that were classic and cutting edge and now sell for more than they did new. so i am keeping a close eye on these chinese products. if bb was selling something of the aurum quality for the price they sell their klipsch for i'd be on top of that. not that i need anything lke that but i collect way too much stuff anyhow.

i hope we see bb start selling stuff for a few hundred that retains the apparent value of these insignias. could you imagine that? i really would like to see the china direct stuff be avaialable at retail outlets. that would be great. what this does to us economy is a different issue but personally does not concern me. i am first and foremost a consumer and not a political activist.

the aurum may be very good and so may be it's red rose counterpart. however i am very dissapointed in mr. levinson nowdays. even at $2,000 that is not what someone from my time grew to expect from him. the lexus is the same deal. he planted his roots making only no holds barred audio equipment. even at the $2,000 price point(and assuming they are a good value at that) i feel that he has sold out. it does not even matter that it may actually be a $500 set. that just makes things look even worse for him. i never thought i'd see him putting his name on $2,000 stuff, especially if it is only $500 stuff.
then stock car radios? even if it is a top brand of automobile.
he is obviously a victem of capitalism.

i remember when he was a young cutting edge designer and that quality was previously unheard of.

he was at 24 bit 10 years before it became commonplace.

anyways, you are right. i think after all i will keep these. they are actually above average. it is my personal problem to go compare them to wilsons. most average people have never heard wilsons in a store, so these would be pretty darn good to average folk.

oh, and i have a dedicated live end-dead end and still nitpick. so you can see where i am coming from. i would be considered a fanatic or "nut" in bb type circles. quite frankly i was just too criticle of these. they are actually fine. especially considering the money involved. i still would not bother "improving" them. that is better spent on products that can really shine once improvements have been made. after 2 days with them, as they stand they represent a fine value even though they are not reference quality and were not intended to be so. i simply expected the impossible. now that i have come back down to earth regarding these i'll find some use for them somewhere.

edit: i did not realise this is actually mr. levinsons own company. he left cello to have his stuff manufacturerd in china?
maybe it is just the state of the industry. a manager at tweeter recently told me they can no longer sell $20,000 transports and even the krell sacd standard is hard for them to move at this point. musicdirect might be different since the internet offers them different levels of exposure. these red rose are either a far cry from cello grand stradivari or you simply can make great stuff for low prices today. i don't know which. i havent heard the red rose. i want to!


music_man

 

[ooheadsoo]

I submit to you that they are probably head over tails better than my polk R15 I bought for a fistful of dollars on sale. It all depends on if you have an application for them. For me, I hate direct radiation for surround channels unless it's a one man home theater, and that's what I'd use them for if I purchased them, so the insignias really don't do much for me. I wouldn't use them for mains, they don't have the cabinet volume to do any real bass. It sounds like you have plenty of speakers, and there're plenty of electronic goodies to peruse at BB, just not many audio related ones that would interest higher end folks like us. If I didn't already have my chump change polks, I'd probably have picked up a pair, as well.

How do you like your LEDE setup? I can't manage a dedicated room and I've never gotten close to having my speakers properly set up. This conversation could probably benefit everyone in the thread if they're interested in setting their insignias up.

 

[flashbackk]

I haven't reread this entire thread lately, so if this has been posted already I am sorry.

Everybody talks about GR's upgrade for the BB's. Has anyone tried Zalph's notch filter and sock trick yet???? Much cheaper.

edit: added the link I forgot about a week later sheeesh sorry about that

http://www.zaphaudio.com/Insignia.html

 

[music_man]

i put them on a driverack. now they actually sound like maybe $400 speakers.
this would be kind of silly for most people though since a driverack costs many times what these speakers do. the behrenger ripoff of the dr would be right up these speakers alley but even that is like $300 i think. on the dr i can at least stand to listen to them for a few minutes.

i just don't like big stores with lot's of children and a lot of noise plus rude and incompetent staff. if i wanted an ipod i'd probably go to a tweeter or something. it is an american mainstay like walmart but i am too old fashioned for these places. thats just me personally. they don't need me anyhow the're doing fine without me.

i did not get the insignias anywhere near the lede. i couldn't even imagine how nuts i would go if i bumped something out of place in there. i am not even carrying shoebox size packages in there.

i figure it could be a lot better. in all honesty maybe 2% of the population would even do that to begin with. i am just a fanatic with some things(audio).
even many audiophiles might be impressed, but i am always looking for better/more. i'd like to hear mr. burwen's system. it is probably better than mine. well, it is certainly bigger! i don't know what the deal is with ml, he is into computer sources now even. again, call me old fashioned. i won't even buy new tubes.

as i mentioned i find the best values in used older stuff. so my investment is not as big as it may seem. i have a knack for relieving second hand stores of stuff they know nothing about. in that regard you can actually do a whole lot better than these insignias for say $150.

something intresting though. these insignias seem to sound ok one moment and terrible the next. so i took measurements over several hours and they are changing. i do not mean from break in either. one is exhibiting strange behaviour. it may be the tweeter or xover going bad. it appears low frequencies are making it to the tweeter from what i can see. but it may just be the spider pooping out and not a bad cap in the xover. i wouldn't put it above qc at this price and my luck as usual too. no way am i going back in a bb though!

i have not given them over maybe 40 watts, so i did not cook them which can happen quickly from the way i saw the motors working on these. so everyone can have a good laugh i am powering them with some no. 20.6's that i just got done repairing. those are tricky to repair. so if one amp goes nuts, at least expensive speakers are not being sacrificed. of course when i am sure those amps are working they will not be powering insignias,lol.
it is not a bad amp that caused the apparent problem. they are stable at the moment. when one of those goes sour after a repair there is smoke and fireworks and that has not happened yet. knock on wood.

btw, if you can find an rs that has it, 12ga. megacable is on clearance for 29 cents per foot. perfect for the insignias. rs is actually one store i love. they constantly decide they can't sell stuff and end up nearly giving it away. only store i know that regularly does that.

music_man

 

[Pibborando]

I have a question regarding what exactly to hook these speakers up to if I get them.

I've got nice headphones, but haven't invested much... at all into speakers. I want to have something that sounds good when I'm not listening to my headphones, and the price/performance value on these just seems too good to pass up so I am going to pick them up from my local Best Buy as soon as they come back in stock.

Now, I want to know if I already have a source that could power these guys, at least until I get an actual reciever. You see, right now, all I have is an old AIWA CX-NA555 mini stereo system on my shelf (eh...) and my Logitech Z-640 5.1 system at my computer (I know...). So, first of all, I thought, could I just hook the Insignias to the AIWA stereo (replacing the existing speakers)? I think it only has 110W total output though, so 55W per speaker wouldn't be too great.
Would it also be possible to hook them up to my Z-640, through the subwoofer, (replacing the front two speakers) somehow?

I have a feeling that the only real answer will be to go out and get a real reciever... but I just wanted to know if I had any interim options.

Thanks

 

[ooheadsoo]

yes, to both.