[Pazz]

It seems there's a general agreement with a lot of impressions that the soundstage of the Layla is bigger than that of the A series, and also that the Layla has better detailing. I'm going to repeat what I said earlier and give my impressions, which are basically the opposite. I found the A12 to have a slightly larger soundstage than the Layla, in all directions, except upward, where the Layla clearly won. This may be due either to my ears, the test tracks I used, or a perceptual trick where vertical soundstage is confused with overall soundstage representation, if that makes sense, or is even possible. I found the A12 to detail better, in fact, than any other headphones I have ever heard, including the Layla, and the HE-1000. I probably spent a good 3 hours total listening to them, split between close sessions going back and forth between various other vendors, at CanJam. A good portion of this time was actually spent scrutinizing the details I heard on the A12, which I had thought at first to be perhaps a mistake, but found out as more critical listening yielded, that it was not. I made special attention to run from the 1964 Ears booth all the way over to the other TOTL IEM tables. The A12 just got my most listening time out of all the others. The test tracks I used were all binaural (hence why my impressions could be significantly different, as binaural recordings work very differently on IEMs compared to headphones, almost just as much as soundstage when referring to headphones does not mean the same word when referring to speakers). I used ones from Naturespace, Dr. Chesky's Ultimate Headphone Demonstration Disc, Amber Rubarth's Sessions from the 17th Ward, and Ottmar Liebert's Up Close. Obviously, I am judging these headphones in a very different way and purpose, but this information should still have some value. 
 
On a final note, I do find the differences not very large or immediately noticeable. I would probably go with the A12 as my all around performer. I would prefer the Layla for some other scenarios and genres. However, I would be completely satisfied if I had only one of them. I would be satisfied if I could only have the Angie, or the A6, too. Even a Noble 4 would satisfy me, as I feel it has 92% of the sound quality compared to the TOTL. 

 

[Levanter]

  It seems there's a general agreement with a lot of impressions that the soundstage of the Layla is bigger than that of the A series, and also that the Layla has better detailing. I'm going to repeat what I said earlier and give my impressions, which are basically the opposite. I found the A12 to have a slightly larger soundstage than the Layla, in all directions, except upward, where the Layla clearly won. This may be due either to my ears, the test tracks I used, or a perceptual trick where vertical soundstage is confused with overall soundstage representation, if that makes sense, or is even possible. I found the A12 to detail better, in fact, than any other headphones I have ever heard, including the Layla, and the HE-1000. I probably spent a good 3 hours total listening to them, split between close sessions going back and forth between various other vendors, at CanJam. A good portion of this time was actually spent scrutinizing the details I heard on the A12, which I had thought at first to be perhaps a mistake, but found out as more critical listening yielded, that it was not. I made special attention to run from the 1964 Ears booth all the way over to the other TOTL IEM tables. The A12 just got my most listening time out of all the others. The test tracks I used were all binaural (hence why my impressions could be significantly different, as binaural recordings work very differently on IEMs compared to headphones, almost just as much as soundstage when referring to headphones does not mean the same word when referring to speakers). I used ones from Naturespace, Dr. Chesky's Ultimate Headphone Demonstration Disc, Amber Rubarth's Sessions from the 17th Ward, and Ottmar Liebert's Up Close. Obviously, I am judging these headphones in a very different way and purpose, but this information should still have some value. 
 
On a final note, I do find the differences not very large or immediately noticeable. I would probably go with the A12 as my all around performer. I would prefer the Layla for some other scenarios and genres. However, I would be completely satisfied if I had only one of them. I would be satisfied if I could only have the Angie, or the A6, too. Even a Noble 4 would satisfy me, as I feel it has 92% of the sound quality compared to the TOTL. 

 
My impression on detailing leans toward A12 due to better separation and layering, making it easier to pick out details. However soundstage wise A12 is good but not exceptional IMO. There are a number of IEMs out there which bests A12 in soundstage wise, @jelt2359 can attest to that since he probably owns most of the TOTL CIEMs out there.

 

[Pazz]

   
My impression on detailing leans toward A12 due to better separation and layering, making it easier to pick out details. However soundstage wise A12 is good but not exceptional IMO. There are a number of IEMs out there which bests A12 in soundstage wise, @jelt2359 can attest to that since he probably owns most of the TOTL CIEMs out there.

That's probably more the truth, but we have another statistical outlier here, at least if it's not explained by the difference in using binaural tracks for evaluation instead of any other type of recording. My common sense tells me that binaural soundstage is fundamentally different from we what normally consider soundstage. If that's true, detailing can also be different, and of course, detailing is also a function of separation and layering, not to mention speed. The acoustical impedance allowed by the ADEL module might effect the speed of the diaphragm excursion. This is probably more a topic for the sound science forum though.

 

[ericr]

Amber Rubarth "sessions from the 17th ward" oh my LOL

THIS! 110%

Her rendition of "Just Like a Woman" comes across so realistically on the A12 it gave me chills!

 

[ericr]

About soundstage. I've concluded the A12 doesn't have a soundstage per se - you simply get the soundstage of the recording.

In contrast, some phones are known for a large soundstage and some for a closer presentation..My SM64 has quite a wide soundstage, more so than the W4 it replaced. And this was true no matter what I was listening to. Most of the time it was a nice improvement but on some tracks it seemed artificial - as if the sound had been stretched. The V6-Stage adds a bit more width and much more depth and height to help mitigate the stretched sense.

My initial impression was the V6-Stage had a slightly larger soundstage than the A12. That was until I listened to "17the Ward" mentioned by miandnan. It's a binaural recording where on many tracks the accompanying performers are deliberately positioned *wide* to the left and right on stage, with Amber at center. The A12 *clearly* (figuratively and literally) presents a much wider and more realistic soundstage than the V6-Stage on these tracks. In contrast the track "Just Like a Woman" is just Amber and her guitar front and center. Listening to this track in isolation it would be easy to conclude the A12 soundstage is not as wide as headphone _________.

 

[eldss]

Good observations on the soundstage. I'm wondering if the soundstage would also be affected by the self-tunable module and if once the other module is available, the soundstage might also be increased or decreased based on the tuning of the dials. Has anyone had the chance to listen to the A12s with the other module?

 

[Malevolent]

If there is one thing I wish the A12 would improve on, it would be their soundstage. Whats your next target you're aiming for?

Did you hear Jason's SE5 Ult? Curious on how did you find the soundstage on that vs Layla?

 
Yeah, the SE5Way Ultimate had a massive soundstage that was on par with what I've heard from my Roxanne and the Layla. Wide and sufficiently deep. A really 3-dimensional soundstage that was easily apparent and rather cavernous in size. My impressions were cursory in length, but the soundstage was what caught my eye (or ears). It delivered an experience on par with what the Layla offered.
 
I'm actually very interested in getting the A12, actually.

 While I couldn't get a good fit with Jason's pair, but when I did get them sealed well (with both hands pressed on my ears, even), I was quite surprised by what I heard. I'll need to audition them again, but I think they'll be my next purchase. 

 

 

[Levanter]

   
Yeah, the SE5Way Ultimate had a massive soundstage that was on par with what I've heard from my Roxanne and the Layla. Wide and sufficiently deep. A really 3-dimensional soundstage that was easily apparent and rather cavernous in size. My impressions were cursory in length, but the soundstage was what caught my eye (or ears). It delivered an experience on par with what the Layla offered.
 
I'm actually very interested in getting the A12, actually.

 While I couldn't get a good fit with Jason's pair, but when I did get them sealed well (with both hands pressed on my ears, even), I was quite surprised by what I heard. I'll need to audition them again, but I think they'll be my next purchase. 

 

 
As long as SE5 doesn't share any other similar signature as Layla, e.g. recessed & lifeless, i'd be seriously interested in the SE5 with that soundstage 

You prefer the A12 over the SE5? What pulled you more over to this camp? 

 

[Pazz]

About soundstage. I've concluded the A12 doesn't have a soundstage per se - you simply get the soundstage of the recording.

In contrast, some phones are known for a large soundstage and some for a closer presentation..My SM64 has quite a wide soundstage, more so than the W4 it replaced. And this was true no matter what I was listening to. Most of the time it was a nice improvement but on some tracks it seemed artificial - as if the sound had been stretched. The V6-Stage adds a bit more width and much more depth and height to help mitigate the stretched sense.

My initial impression was the V6-Stage had a slightly larger soundstage than the A12. That was until I listened to "17the Ward" mentioned by miandnan. It's a binaural recording where on many tracks the accompanying performers are deliberately positioned *wide* to the left and right on stage, with Amber at center. The A12 *clearly* (figuratively and literally) presents a much wider and more realistic soundstage than the V6-Stage on these tracks. In contrast the track "Just Like a Woman" is just Amber and her guitar front and center. Listening to this track in isolation it would be easy to conclude the A12 soundstage is not as wide as headphone _________.

Ah yes, this is exactly the sort of impressions I've been waiting to see! I'm glad I wasn't the only one who got impressions like these. Amber's album is a really good demonstration for these IEMs. I especially like Tundra, where the violin at approximately 1:25 starts going into the distance. Actually, I feel that every A12 or ADEL series owner NEEDS to try these binaural recordings. Some Up Close by Ottmar Liebert if not Amber Rubarth. Naturespace, too, and Dr. Chesky. There are more binaural recordings out there, but those ones are my favorite.

 

[AudioBear]

Funny you should say this.  I owned a few binaural recordings but after I received my A12 I ordered 6 more and was looking for others to download.  I never really thought about why but they just sounded so real on the A12.  I think you have hit on something.  I too have the feeling that you get what the recording has to offer. And that can be stunning on some binaural recordings.
 
The only source I have found is the binaural section on HD Tracks, but I own most of those already.  Are there other good sources I haven't found?

 

[Pazz]

I'm deliberating on whether I should make a sound science post instead, but basically, the idea I have is that the ADEL allows adjustment of the acoustic impedance difference to near zero. I'm not entirely sure if I'm using the terminology right, or if it's a valid hypothesis, but I think the difference will allow the diaphragm of the driver to move more equally in each direction, which means that the waveform will not be biased in either direction, leading to more accuracy. The speed could also be affected because the pressure from the acoustic impedance of the sealed ear would provide a force on the diaphragm more or less equal to the force exerted by the pressure from the other side, which on other IEMs most likely would have been very high since you just encounter the shell's completely sealed and low-air space.
 
 

   Are there other good sources I haven't found?

I'd love to know this too actually. So far, other than HD Tracks, I've gotten random binaural recordings from youtube rips and other niche sites, which don't provide you with really great quality most of the time. With the exception of Naturespace though. Even though they only give you lossy encodes, which you have to take from their app, they still sounds as good as any other high quality binaural tracks.

 

[AudioBear]

It seems reasonable that removing the pressure gradient across the tympanic membrane would allow the membrane to move freely in either direction.  One could call it the equivalent in sound to lowering impedance in electronics. That makes them more analogous to the situation with speakers. Speakers give great sound stage and spatial clues.  IEMs have two major differences to overcome to be more like a speaker--I'm not sure as good as a speaker will ever apply--the first is of course the unnatural way in which the sound arrives at the membrane, and the second is the pressure differential across the membrane created by the sealed system.  ADEL may indeed eliminate one hurdle to more natural sounding audio reproduction.
 
It would be interesting to run this by the sound science threads.

 

[Malevolent]

 
As long as SE5 doesn't share any other similar signature as Layla, e.g. recessed & lifeless, i'd be seriously interested in the SE5 with that soundstage 

You prefer the A12 over the SE5? What pulled you more over to this camp? 

 
Well, I only had the shortest time with the SE5, but from the 2 tracks that I tried, they sounded more energetic than the Layla. I'd like to have a more comprehensive audition soon (to give them a fair shake), but for now, they sound better to my ears than the Layla. The latter is a technical powerhouse, but it was.. boring, for lack of a better term. I cycled through my collection of favorites (within a 40-45 minute period), and I couldn't find 1 song which the Layla played with zest or enthusiasm. The Angie, on the other hand, was a lot more engaging and musical. Sure, the Layla bests the Angie, the K10, the Roxanne and even the A12 in certain components, namely soundstage and micro detail. However, the overall package was unappealing to my ears, and certainly not something I'd consider buying.
 
The A12 was the IEM that I really wanted to try during the meet, and I spent a fairly good amount of time with them. Owing to the less than stellar fit, however, I was unable to garner accurate impressions, but they were all positive. I loved the overall bass presentation - punchy, with nice slam and impact, without being bloated with too much mid-bass. Very nice texture, and they delivered well with dance tracks. The midrange was balanced without losing any authority. Vocals and instruments were splendidly reproduced. I liked the highs as well - they had good extension, were smooth and controlled, and topped with enough sparkle and detail to match the fantastic lows. A good combination for EDM.
 
Overall, the A12 sounded similar to the K10 in technical prowess, but has more prominent bass with a slightly less forward midrange. A good winner in my books. 

 

[tmorterlaing]

So, now everyone seems to be yammering on about their A12 series... I wonder if the apparently forgotten U customers are anywhere close to getting theirs? It's coming up to May, after all...

 

[Smurfs2010]

  So, now everyone seems to be yammering on about their A12 series... I wonder if the apparently forgotten U customers are anywhere close to getting theirs? It's coming up to May, after all...

 
Word.... Do people still say that?  I guess more appropriate would be +1.  I would love an update as well.