[Lunatique]

 
Let's hold on a minute here.  I am not an expert on cans or IEMs although I do know a but about speakers and I read. One of the things I have read is:
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-measurements-explained-frequency-response-part-one#ZcOq2DzRDDErjrKH.97
 and http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-measurements-explained-frequency-response-part-two#TPmOy1ojJtAVTfco.97
 
If you haven't read these two articles you should.  They helped me a lot.
 
The simplified take home message is that a flat frequency response curve is exactly what you don't want in a headphone or an IEM.  That's why there is active research on the best curve to provide psycho-perceptual neutrality.  It's one of the major challenges of all developers in this industry.    If they had to do flat it would be a lot easier to build a good IEM.  What they must do is boast the base and introduce a complex set of peaks and valleys in the treble in order for our ear to hear flat which I am interpreting to be neutral. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
As an aside, from having built and equalized speakers I totally agree that a flat frequency response need not be clinical, sterile, lifeless or dead.  It can be as musical as it gets. There are many variables other than frequency response that determine apparent audio quality and user happiness.  There are speakers with very wanky frequency responses that sound great.
 
So if the Dunu were really flat it would probably be awful.  I am not going to argue with @Lunatique who obviously knows a lot more about what he is talking about than I do.  I would love to have him start a forum thread as he suggests.   I would, however, ask the Lunatique to comment on his observations in light of the Harman Target Response curve as modified by Tyll at Innerfidelity.  At first glance his equalization curve bears a resemblance to a cancellation curve for the Harman Target Response curve.  Am I missing something?  Have I not had enough coffee yet this morning?
 
Let me close by saying that I love my A12s.  I am not interested in any other cIEM.  I enjoy it immensely and could give a rats tail if it's accurate or flat.  An A10 might be a better sound professional's cIEM but I don't even find the A12 to have exaggerated bass.  It just delivers the bass with authority when it's there.  There are IEMs and then there are 64 Ears ADEL IEMS. The response to their Kickstarter has caused some growing pains at 64 Ears.  I have always had very quick and complete responses to my questions and their service has been great.  I hope that when they clear out the Kickstarter backlogs that becomes the 100% norm once again.
 
Afterthought:  The response curve of an IEM needs a special measurement set up.  Some Hi-Fiers are equipped to measure responses but most are not.  The results of different measurement set-ups can easily produce different curves.  Perhaps some of you who do measurements can comment on that.  Could be part of Lunatique's seminar thread: measuring in ear response.

 
I just posted a response in another thread that addresses most of your questions: http://www.head-fi.org/t/785154/need-recommendations-for-most-neutral-accurate-yet-musical-and-enjoyable-iem-in-sub-1-000-range-going-over-is-okay-if-its-really-worth-it/60#post_12281740
 
The U5 and U10's frequency response goes past the Harman Target Response Curve's adjustment and is firmly in the "too colored to the point of being detrimental" territory. The corrections I created actually gets them closer to the Harman Target Response Curve.
 
I don't know if anyone's interested, but I can post the actual parametric EQ curve setting I used to correct the U5 and U10 to make them sound more neutral/accurate. All you have to do is to use the actual preset file and open them up in EasyQ (a freeware parametric EQ VST plugin) in a host that supports VST plugins (such as J River Media Center, which is what I use). Or if you want to use a different parametric EQ, I can post the actual parameter setting numbers so you can enter those numbers and get identical results.
 
I'm thinking about maybe doing a big instructional thread where I teach headfiers how to use test tones to properly assess headphones, what to consider about your own hearing capabilities, how to EQ to achieve the neutral/accurate sound for your own ears so that the headphone disappears and you only hear the music, how to do the same for speakers, etc. It'll include the exact test tones to use and where to get them from (or I can upload them), what DSP plugins to use that's simple and uncomplicated and free, etc., as well as commercial alternatives for those that don't mind spending some money on this quest to achieve the most neutral sound possible for yourself. 
 
I'm guessing the Sound Science subforum is the best place for such a thread? 

 

[Wyd4]

   
I just posted a response in another thread that addresses most of your questions: http://www.head-fi.org/t/785154/need-recommendations-for-most-neutral-accurate-yet-musical-and-enjoyable-iem-in-sub-1-000-range-going-over-is-okay-if-its-really-worth-it/60#post_12281740
 
The U5 and U10's frequency response goes past the Harman Target Response Curve's adjustment and is firmly in the "too colored to the point of being detrimental" territory. The corrections I created actually gets them closer to the Harman Target Response Curve.
 
I don't know if anyone's interested, but I can post the actual parametric EQ curve setting I used to correct the U5 and U10 to make them sound more neutral/accurate. All you have to do is to use the actual preset file and open them up in EasyQ (a freeware parametric EQ VST plugin) in a host that supports VST plugins (such as J River Media Center, which is what I use). Or if you want to use a different parametric EQ, I can post the actual parameter setting numbers so you can enter those numbers and get identical results.
 
I'm thinking about maybe doing a big instructional thread where I teach headfiers how to use test tones to properly assess headphones, what to consider about your own hearing capabilities, how to EQ to achieve the neutral/accurate sound for your own ears so that the headphone disappears and you only hear the music, how to do the same for speakers, etc. It'll include the exact test tones to use and where to get them from (or I can upload them), what DSP plugins to use that's simple and uncomplicated and free, etc., as well as commercial alternatives for those that don't mind spending some money on this quest to achieve the most neutral sound possible for yourself. 
 
I'm guessing the Sound Science subforum is the best place for such a thread? 

 
Hi there,

I was actually considering a pair of U5's in the future, I am curious as to where the colouring you speak of occurs?
I am not one for neutrality.  Thats a lie, I like neutrality, however I also appreciate what the character of a speaker/headphone brings to the chain, as such I like to run my source as neutral as possible.
 
My only reason for choosing the U5 at this point is $$.  The U4 from all reports, if like the 1964-Q, will be all bass, no highs and the U6 is too expensive for me currently.
 
So your EQ could be invaluable to me and I thank you, but I am also curious as to how the U5 sounds in its natural form.

Scott

 

[AudioBear]

  ...
 
I'm thinking about maybe doing a big instructional thread where I teach headfiers how to use test tones to properly assess headphones, what to consider about your own hearing capabilities, how to EQ to achieve the neutral/accurate sound for your own ears so that the headphone disappears and you only hear the music, how to do the same for speakers, etc. It'll include the exact test tones to use and where to get them from (or I can upload them), what DSP plugins to use that's simple and uncomplicated and free, etc., as well as commercial alternatives for those that don't mind spending some money on this quest to achieve the most neutral sound possible for yourself. 
 
I'm guessing the Sound Science subforum is the best place for such a thread? 

 
Thanks for the explanation.  I'm glad your willing to start the thread and will be reading it.  I don't know where the best place to host the thread. It sounds scientific to me.  Maybe you should ask the mods where they'd like to see it or they might move it anyway.

 

[Lunatique]

   
Hi there,

I was actually considering a pair of U5's in the future, I am curious as to where the colouring you speak of occurs?
I am not one for neutrality.  Thats a lie, I like neutrality, however I also appreciate what the character of a speaker/headphone brings to the chain, as such I like to run my source as neutral as possible.
 
My only reason for choosing the U5 at this point is $$.  The U4 from all reports, if like the 1964-Q, will be all bass, no highs and the U6 is too expensive for me currently.
 
So your EQ could be invaluable to me and I thank you, but I am also curious as to how the U5 sounds in its natural form.

Scott

In my original post that contains the multiple emails I wrote to 64 Audio, I detailed exactly where the coloration problems were. 
 
BTW, keep in mind that during all of my correspondences with them, 64 Audio never once disputed my findings and simply said the U5 I sent back has no tuning problems and sounds as it should according to their intended tuning. Not once did they tell me that my testing was flawed or that my assertion that the frequency response of the U5/U10 are nowhere near neutral or suitable for professional audio uses where accuracy is of utmost importance. This is why I said this is simply part of the culture of consumer audio industry and how the marketing department of these companies work--they make promises that their products can't fulfill, and provide no objective testing/measurements to back up their claims, and it's disappointing. It's sort of like how Bose is notorious for never posting any measurements and simply tells consumers, "Just trust us. Our stuff sounds great!" In contrast, high-end companies do post test results and measurements to back up their claims. Look no further than Audez'e and how they include a measurement printout of your exact headphone when they ship the product to you. I get that IEMs are harder to measure than other types of headphones, but then what the hell do audio engineers base their decisions on if the companies have no way of objectively testing their products? It's obvious that so many of these smaller headphone companies are run by people who are not audio engineers and are simply basing designs on their own subjective preferences. 

 

[b0ssMax]

I just posted a response in another thread that addresses most of your questions: http://www.head-fi.org/t/785154/need-recommendations-for-most-neutral-accurate-yet-musical-and-enjoyable-iem-in-sub-1-000-range-going-over-is-okay-if-its-really-worth-it/60#post_12281740

The U5 and U10's frequency response goes past the Harman Target Response Curve's adjustment and is firmly in the "too colored to the point of being detrimental" territory. The corrections I created actually gets them closer to the Harman Target Response Curve.

I don't know if anyone's interested, but I can post the actual parametric EQ curve setting I used to correct the U5 and U10 to make them sound more neutral/accurate. All you have to do is to use the actual preset file and open them up in EasyQ (a freeware parametric EQ VST plugin) in a host that supports VST plugins (such as J River Media Center, which is what I use). Or if you want to use a different parametric EQ, I can post the actual parameter setting numbers so you can enter those numbers and get identical results.

I'm thinking about maybe doing a big instructional thread where I teach headfiers how to use test tones to properly assess headphones, what to consider about your own hearing capabilities, how to EQ to achieve the neutral/accurate sound for your own ears so that the headphone disappears and you only hear the music, how to do the same for speakers, etc. It'll include the exact test tones to use and where to get them from (or I can upload them), what DSP plugins to use that's simple and uncomplicated and free, etc., as well as commercial alternatives for those that don't mind spending some money on this quest to achieve the most neutral sound possible for yourself. 

I'm guessing the Sound Science subforum is the best place for such a thread? 

If you start e thread, i'll be reading up on it.

I do have a u12 and other iem's, which i do know isn't flat but really enjoyable for me.

 

[LoryWiv]

  I've had my A6's several months and enjoy them immensely. Over the last few days I've noted intermittent cutout of the left channel, reproduced in both DX90 and iDSD so not a source issue. I suspect it may be a cable / connector issue and it does resolve within 5 minutes upon my re-inserting the plug and applying gentle forward pressure to the connectors to shell. Hoping to avoid an RMA. Should I ask 64Audio replace my cable or are there other things I should try 1st?
 
Any ideas appreciated. Thanks!

Mmm, curiously I may now have isolated the issue to my DAP. I have been unable to reproduce the problem with iDSD BUT it has occurred with different IEM's through the DX90. Thinking the A6 are fine....will pursue fix of DAP and hopefully back to happy listening. 

 

[Sound Eq]

Really such tutorial for using eq is really appreciated

 

[2Dutch]

  X2's have arrived: love the sound and fit, but it appears the in ears aren't (quality) checked before sending them out: some marks on the plastic housings, even a little knick in one of the foam eartips.
No instruction manual/booklet (they include a little cleaning tool, but how and where do I use it on exactly?) either, very weird for such a company I'd say..
Mixed feelings, but the sound is very detailed, love the adel module doing its work (lots of bass is not fatiguing).

Has anyone else received their X2? Love to hear from others. 1964 Audio asked me to contact them about the looks of the IEMs/knicked foam, so I will do that later this week.
I'm curious what their reply will be.. The in ears work fine, so it's not like I cannot use them or anything, but still..feels lousy to pay 138 dollars + customs fees for something that looks unfinished..

 

[Ike1985]

I just posted a response in another thread that addresses most of your questions: http://www.head-fi.org/t/785154/need-recommendations-for-most-neutral-accurate-yet-musical-and-enjoyable-iem-in-sub-1-000-range-going-over-is-okay-if-its-really-worth-it/60#post_12281740

The U5 and U10's frequency response goes past the Harman Target Response Curve's adjustment and is firmly in the "too colored to the point of being detrimental" territory. The corrections I created actually gets them closer to the Harman Target Response Curve.

I don't know if anyone's interested, but I can post the actual parametric EQ curve setting I used to correct the U5 and U10 to make them sound more neutral/accurate. All you have to do is to use the actual preset file and open them up in EasyQ (a freeware parametric EQ VST plugin) in a host that supports VST plugins (such as J River Media Center, which is what I use). Or if you want to use a different parametric EQ, I can post the actual parameter setting numbers so you can enter those numbers and get identical results.

I'm thinking about maybe doing a big instructional thread where I teach headfiers how to use test tones to properly assess headphones, what to consider about your own hearing capabilities, how to EQ to achieve the neutral/accurate sound for your own ears so that the headphone disappears and you only hear the music, how to do the same for speakers, etc. It'll include the exact test tones to use and where to get them from (or I can upload them), what DSP plugins to use that's simple and uncomplicated and free, etc., as well as commercial alternatives for those that don't mind spending some money on this quest to achieve the most neutral sound possible for yourself. 

I'm guessing the Sound Science subforum is the best place for such a thread? 

That's already been achieved with my A12's, they completely disappear and only the music remains.

 

[Ike1985]

http://www.head-fi.org/t/785154/need-recommendations-for-most-neutral-accurate-yet-musical-and-enjoyable-iem-in-sub-1-000-range-going-over-is-okay-if-its-really-worth-it/60#post_12280268
 
See post 64

 

[Lunatique]

That's already been achieved with my A12's, they completely disappear and only the music remains.

If the A12 is simply the custom version of U12, then that's just not possible. Even 64 Audio said that they couldn't recommend the U10 to me because it has too much emphasized bass to be considered neutral, and the U12 has even more exaggerated bass compared to the U10. The U5 is the only model they recommended for neutral/accurate frequency response, and that turned out to be nowhere near neutral enough. All of their other models are significantly more colored than the U5, which means they are all far from being able to disappear and allow you to only hear the music.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/785154/need-recommendations-for-most-neutral-accurate-yet-musical-and-enjoyable-iem-in-sub-1-000-range-going-over-is-okay-if-its-really-worth-it/60#post_12280268

See post 64

What about my reply to that post in post #65? http://www.head-fi.org/t/785154/need-recommendations-for-most-neutral-accurate-yet-musical-and-enjoyable-iem-in-sub-1-000-range-going-over-is-okay-if-its-really-worth-it/60#post_12281740

 

[shotgunshane]

Lol, you are not going to tune 12db's of difference between users away with tip selection. If that was the case, just use different tips to get it more neutral.

 

[nardkumz]

If the A12 is simply the custom version of U12, then that's just not possible. Even 64 Audio said that they couldn't recommend the U10 to me because it has too much emphasized bass to be considered neutral, and the U12 has even more exaggerated bass compared to the U10. The U5 is the only model they recommended for neutral/accurate frequency response, and that turned out to be nowhere near neutral enough. All of their other models are significantly more colored than the U5, which means they are all far from being able to disappear and allow you to only hear the music.
What about my reply to that post in post #65? http://www.head-fi.org/t/785154/need-recommendations-for-most-neutral-accurate-yet-musical-and-enjoyable-iem-in-sub-1-000-range-going-over-is-okay-if-its-really-worth-it/60#post_12281740

I read your posts, and i can totally understand where you come from, and the theoritical and practical knowledge you possess.

But i have say your posts are more criticising and don't bring solution to the table. If you are so sure that the world as it is now lacks neutral reference UIEM (because you don't like CIEM, otherwise you can get UE PRM), then you can use the opportunity to make it happens by create that UIEM.
Creating and selling a pair of IEM is not easy, granted. But if you wanna put that idealistic thought of yours to a product and make your statement counts in this world, then go the long way and make it happen!

Criticising is easy, but being part of solution takes courage.

As for this 'disappear and let you enjoy the music' i think he referred to comfortability of A12, which can't be compared to 'U'12, given a perfect fit through perfect ear impressions. To which i'd agree, as I used my A12 for stage, and the comfortability of the (C)IEM are hard to beat because of custom mould + ADEL Tech.

Ultimately, IF at the end of the day you are going to find that 'ultimate reference' IEM that suit you, please inform us. I'd be very interested to plug them into my unexperienced, normal ears to at the end know how neutrality and reference flat FR sounds.

PS: for any wrong terms or wording, which are to find in this posting, I'd like to apologise in advance. I'm by any means not an expert. Just an ordinary person giving his opinion.

 

[Eugguy]

I am still in the midst of testing and comparing my u12 vs the competitors...personally, the u12 is amazing. It is hitting every single aspect of sound I could ever desire. It is neutral to my ears while still having a personality. Amazing soundstage and imaging. I am not new at all to the iem game, and I will say I catch myself with instances of paranoia, thinking I am hearing sounds that are really from the u12, rather than my home. 

 

[Brooko]

Do you guys think that perhaps what is being discussed is the difference between neutrality, and sounding natural?  IME there is a difference.  And that also correlates to our very subjective opinion of what is balanced (because everyone will have a different idea of what is balanced to them).
 
Take the HD600 - it is one of the most natural sounding and balanced headphones I've heard - but it isn't neutral.
 
I understand what Lunatique wants with his quest for a truly neutral earphone. I've experienced some of the EQing Joe Bloggs provided for a couple of my earphones to create a more neutral profile, and I was amazed at how much better they sounded (to me anyway) than the original tuning.
 
But at the same time, I understand what companies like 1964Ears are saying when they describe one of their line as being neutral and accurate.  Relative to the rest of their line - they may well be.
 
I think the difference is in people's understanding of the terms, and there is a relative difference to use of the terms depending on who is using them.  Not saying there should be - but ultimately that is how it is.  Although a lot of us talk about wanting what is neutral, too often we are describing what sounds more natural to us - and ultimately not what is neutral (from a production/audio professional viewpoint).