[Luckbad]

I'm worried the hype will make me blame the dac if I don't instantly love the Liquid Carbon.

 

[bearFNF]

   
On that note, I am continually surprised at the feedback on the LC so far.  Hundreds have auditioned under meet conditions, about a dozen have auditioned under loan conditions, and not a single negative impression so far.  That's pretty darned impressive.

Um, you must have missed it but I did make some negative comments about the SE output to my Roxannes having noise. Good news is that Alex said he was improving it. Jury still out until I get it and see for myself.

 

[SuperU]

 
AND compulsive..."I gots to have something better" (even while not knowing what better is) IS Hell!
 
At least to the bank account!

Ha ha - so very true. I'm aware how silly my words sound, but I can admit it here amongst all my fellow sound junkies. And hey, thanks to a number of you, I'm doing pretty darn well with my initial purchases.  

 

[DecentLevi]

  Alright, some new facts for folks to chew on:
 
I finally have a second DAC that has both SE and Balanced outputs.  The first was my vintage Theta Basic II and now I have the Schiit Gungnir Multibit (GMB or Gumby).  When I tested the Theta through both the SE and Balanced inputs on the LC, I heard no difference.  This led me to believe that the phase splitter was pretty bad ass.
 
Last night I tested the Gumby in the same way and, lo and behold, there was a clear difference.  The mids are noticeably thinner and the soundstage is slightly smaller when using it via SE.  The overall volume stays the same -- for instance the bass sounds exactly the same but everything else thins out. 
 
"Oh no," you may be thinking, "I thought you said SE DAC's were fine and now they're not!"  No worries, there's good news there.  
 
I've said it many times and I will continue to say it: a well-implemented SE DAC can sound better than a poorly implemented balanced DAC.  I've been doing a lot of testing between the DAC-19 (SE) and the GMB (Balanced).  I'll be posting more impressions in a few days (waiting for a new cable to come in), but the reason this is taking so long is because they're so close in sound.  The SE DAC-19 is very competitive with the balanced GMB and sounds better than the SE GMB.  This would seem to back up my assertion above.
 
The moral of the story:  phase splitter isn't as almighty as I made it out to be, but it's still good.  IMO, making sure your DAC is well implemented should be a higher priority than making sure it's balanced.
 
EDIT - For great justice!

Awesome tips Dan! That confirms my 'hypothesis' that whether an equally good SE transport can be had from a DAC versus balanced, depends on how well the SE section is of your DAC. But then of course the only way to know that answer is to compare both outputs for yourself (assuming you have one that has both output types), and then it depends on which sound signature you prefer, since 'fidelity is in the ear of the beholder' rather than taking quoted text as 'the one and only truth'.

 

[Emerpus]

  Alright, some new facts for folks to chew on:
 
I finally have a second DAC that has both SE and Balanced outputs.  The first was my vintage Theta Basic II and now I have the Schiit Gungnir Multibit (GMB or Gumby).  When I tested the Theta through both the SE and Balanced inputs on the LC, I heard no difference.  This led me to believe that the phase splitter was pretty bad ass.
 
Last night I tested the Gumby in the same way and, lo and behold, there was a clear difference.  The mids are noticeably thinner and the soundstage is slightly smaller when using it via SE.  The overall volume stays the same -- for instance the bass sounds exactly the same but everything else thins out. 
 
"Oh no," you may be thinking, "I thought you said SE DAC's were fine and now they're not!"  No worries, there's good news there.  
 
I've said it many times and I will continue to say it: a well-implemented SE DAC can sound better than a poorly implemented balanced DAC.  I've been doing a lot of testing between the DAC-19 (SE) and the GMB (Balanced).  I'll be posting more impressions in a few days (waiting for a new cable to come in), but the reason this is taking so long is because they're so close in sound.  The SE DAC-19 is very competitive with the balanced GMB and sounds better than the SE GMB.  This would seem to back up my assertion above.
 
The moral of the story:  phase splitter isn't as almighty as I made it out to be, but it's still good.  IMO, making sure your DAC is well implemented should be a higher priority than making sure it's balanced.
 
EDIT - For great justice!

 
So looks like we will need @Jason Stoddard to quickly release an affordable Sys 2 with 2 sets of 3-pin XLR output

 

[SuperU]

   
On that note, I am continually surprised at the feedback on the LC so far.  Hundreds have auditioned under meet conditions, about a dozen have auditioned under loan conditions, and not a single negative impression so far.  That's pretty darned impressive.

Yes, I'm thrilled so far as well. I actually wonder if I'll want to upgrade beyond it to one of the LC's big brothers.
 
I have to say, one of the reasons I bought this was because of my interactions with Dr. Cavalli. I feel as if he guided me well. I have much confidence in what he said. So the fact that I'm hearing nothing negative about him, his company or the LC is extremely reassuring. 
 
And I cant wait to hear the difference in the sound signature between Schiit and Cavalli. 

 

[runeight]

  Alright, some new facts for folks to chew on:
 
I finally have a second DAC that has both SE and Balanced outputs.  The first was my vintage Theta Basic II and now I have the Schiit Gungnir Multibit (GMB or Gumby).  When I tested the Theta through both the SE and Balanced inputs on the LC, I heard no difference.  This led me to believe that the phase splitter was pretty bad ass.
 
Last night I tested the Gumby in the same way and, lo and behold, there was a clear difference.  The mids are noticeably thinner and the soundstage is slightly smaller when using it via SE.  The overall volume stays the same -- for instance the bass sounds exactly the same but everything else thins out. 
 

 
I've copied a partial quote and not to insert myself into a very important discussion, it seems to me that the other possibility is that the Gumby SE is not as good as the balanced out and you may be hearing that. Since you don't hear a difference with the Basic II this would suggest that the Carbon is faithful with its SE input. At least this seems reasonable to me.

 

[DecentLevi]

Head-Fi has its own version of the vow of poverty

Better idea: how about Head-Fi charging a monthly subscription to the site for access to unlimited audio gear, instead of making us purchase every litle gadget on faith just to 'test the waters'
 
EDIT: don't take the above seriously, otherwise I'd estimate that subscription would run an average of... maybe $600/month to equal our average spending 

 

[Stillhart]

   
The LC isn't really optimized for either type of operation. It's a balanced amp that can accept SE input and deliver SE output.
 
But, let's clarify the input. I think we've already talked about the SE vs. Bal output enough, but maybe more detail on how the input works would be helpful.
 
The input switching relays switch four signal lines, two for each channel (i.e., the full balanced signal). When coming in from the XLR connectors, the +/- phases go right to the relays..
 
The SE input, however, goes immediately to the phase splitters and comes out of the splitters as four signals, +/- for each channel. Then goes to the other set of contacts on the relays.
 
At this point both the XLR and SE inputs look exactly the same to the amp (fully balanced signals). Then input selector just chooses which one to feed to the amp sections.
 
Another small detail. When the SE signal is phase split, the original (+) signal retains its amplitude. The new (-) signal is created with the same amplitude, but out of phase. Thus, the new balanced signal, essentially, has twice the amplitude of the original SE in.
 
Most, but not all, sources with Bal and SE outs supply only half the amplitude from the SE output (i.e., a single phase). If you were to plug both of outputs from the same source into the Carbon at the same time, because the Carbon "doubles" the SE input, and then switch from Bal to SE and back again, you won't hear any volume change.
 
I have encountered one or two sources that don't work this way, but most of them seem to.

 
 

  @Stillhart am I mistaken, or does your evidence of the GMB single ended vs the Dac-19 single ended vs the Theta balanced vs single ended vs the GMB balanced vs single ended really point out that the SE implimentation on the GMB is the weakest of the above, and not so much that the phase splitter on the LC is not so great?
 
I'm not trying to be cheeky or to bash the SE implimentation on the GMB, but unless I missed something, all the "good" SE implimentations above (Theta SE, Dac-19) went through the phase splitter, along with the "less good" implimentation above, the GMB SE?  The other "good" implimentations were of course the balanced Theta and GMB.
 
This just seems to show:
1) that not all dac implimentations/circuits/outputs are created equal
2) The phase splitter is probably just fine
3) The balanced output is the preferred output for the GMB
 
Or did I missinterpret or just plaiin miss something?

 
 

   
I've copied a partial quote and not to insert myself into a very important discussion, it seems to me that the other possibility is that the Gumby SE is not as good as the balanced out and you may be hearing that. Since you don't hear a difference with the Basic II this would suggest that the Carbon is faithful with its SE input. At least this seems reasonable to me.

 
Okay so I guess I didn't express myself clearly enough.  My apologies folks!  Looking at the first quote above, I get the distinct impression that the phase splitter does two things:  first it gives the benefits of balanced (like the soundstage and imaging) and second it equalizes the volume between SE and Balanced inputs.
 
Now when I wrote my preview, I felt that the SE and Balanced outputs from the Theta sounded indistinguishable and I assumed this was wholly because of the phase splitter.  However without any other DAC's to test with, the jury was still out.  I had no way of knowing whether it was because the Theta just did SE as good as Balanced (or balanced as bad as SE, take your pick) or whether the phase splitter was working some additional magic.
 
Last night I tested with second DAC.  It was clear that the SE output from the GMB is inferior to its balanced output.  What that showed me was that the phase splitter wasn't wholly responsible for the Theta's outputs sounding identical.  The phase splitter wasn't doing everything that I'd attributed to it at first.
 
So yeah, I hope this clears it up a bit.  I don't mean any of that as a knock on the LC in any way; I fully agree with Dr. Cavalli that the Carbon is faithful to what's being fed into it.  In fact, my understanding of it now is that it's MORE faithful to what's being fed into it than I'd previously thought.  I'm not sure how that last post came across so negative but yeah, sorry guys!  lol

 

[doctorjazz]

I don't see the GMB differences as relating to the phase splitter...more that Schitt put more resources into the balanced portion of the GMB. A well implemented single ended dac (say , Audio Research) could still sound better than a lesser balanced unit, the splitter allowing you the benefits of the balanced LC whatever you use as source.


Oops, posted this earlier, when I first read the comparison. On vacation, staying in a place with lousy Wi-Fi, didn't go through until just now. I'm just going to stick my acs Encores into my Pono and my ears (great ciem, btw, remind me one day to tell the tale of my 9 month acs "adventure". But, all's well that ends well, as they say. Nighty night...

 

[Jozurr]

Do you guys know of any other good amps under $1000 which also have a phase splitter and can go balanced out (even though you have input as SE)?

 

[hemtmaker]

Do you guys know of any other good amps under $1000 which also have a phase splitter and can go balanced out (even though you have input as SE)?

Sr71B, although it's more for portable use

 

[J4MES]

Seeing as I want to get the most out of my LC when it arrives I need to get some balanced cables, specially for my Alpha Dogs and K10s. I'm going with Toxic Cable but need to know what termination to get.

I am slightly confused on what connection I should be using for iem's. I think it is the 4 pin Kobiconn connection?

Any particular maker favourite at e moment for connections?

 

[Stillhart]

Seeing as I want to get the most out of my LC when it arrives I need to get some balanced cables, specially for my Alpha Dogs and K10s. I'm going with Toxic Cable but need to know what termination to get.

I am slightly confused on what connection I should be using for iem's. I think it is the 4 pin Kobiconn connection?

Any particular maker favourite at e moment for connections?

 
Yep, 4-pin Kobiconn is correct.  

 

[bflat]

   
Yep, 4-pin Kobiconn is correct.  

You might also see these listed as ALO and/or RSA balanced connector. If my history is correct, I believe Ray Samuels was the first to use this connector for a balanced portable amp and created the standard of how the 4 pins are wired.