[fbhifi]

Recently spent an afternoon listening to R10s, CD3000, 650/Cardas. Meridian 508.20 and Singlepower Supra (current model w/ multiple upgrades) and a current model Singlepower Maestro. I had very high expectations for the R10s and was more than willing to be completely carried away by their presentation. I'm a newbie here, but have been a very active participant in the high-end 2 channel speaker based audiophile game for 15 + years. As a result, I think a have a fairly clear understanding of smooth, flat, frequency response and good extension at the frequency extremes. These characteristics are highly sought after in the speaker based world and most audiophiles consider these characteristics ESSENTIAL in trying to correctly duplicate the musical material on the disc you are spinning.

So, I suppose, I've brought these preconceptions to the headphone world- which seems rational and reasonable. In my above audition, I tried to eliminate front-end and amplifier shortcomings from the equation by using some of the finest black boxes available today. So all thats left to evaluate are the cans.

In terms of satisfying the above noted objectives of smooth, flat, frequency response with good extension in the bass and treble- The SENN. 650 / CARDAS combo is the clearly superior set-up. Great tight, reasonably extended bass response, with smooth FLAT frequency response up thru the (again) reasonably extended highs. I feel that FLAT FREQUNCY RESPONSE is CRITICAL to faithfully reproducing the musical event. Peaks and Valleys, Bloats and Leanness all detract from the performance. These characteristics may be entertaining, but I think a knowledgeable listener will grow tired of them, over time.

SONY R10- Very seductive tonal quality thru-out alot of the frequency range. The mids on up were smooth, warm and nicely bloomy, with-out deviating TOO far from flat response. There seemed to be a general and very PLEASANT Honey Colored coating to the sound. Some would call it a tubey quality. I, BTW, prefer clean tube amps to solid state. The BASS SUCKED!! It was ill defined, very bloaty and lacked decent extension and slam. In terms of slam- it was like hitting a baseball with tuna instead of a bat!! My focus was drawn away from the music by this miserable bass response.

I know that the R10 has near cult status among very knowlegeable Headfiers. and that's why I ask my question in this forum. I was told by the person who shared his time and equipment with me, for the above listening session, that with the R10s you need to, essentially, unlearn what you've grown accustomed to responding to and just listen to them for a week or two- at which time you'll be unable or unwilling to put on any other headphone. That comment seems to support the CULT status aspect of these cans. Maybe there's soom kind of subliminal message reproduction these cans are transmitting to indoctrinate new listeners into the fold.

In defense of the R10s- I really did like the general sonic signiture, ALOT. With the bass problem corrected- the R10s would probably be my choice over the 650 / Cardas combo, even considering the VAST difference in price. But at this point- I can't get past the bass response.

I'd value the comments of all you, well seasoned, Headfiers. If I'm missing something, on the R100s- I'd like to know.

 

[taymat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fbhifi Recently spent an afternoon listening to R10s, CD3000, 650/Cardas. Meridian 508.20 and Singlepower Supra (current model w/ multiple upgrades) and a current model Singlepower Maestro. I had very high expectations for the R10s and was more than willing to be completely carried away by their presentation. I'm a newbie here, but have been a very active participant in the high-end 2 channel speaker based audiophile game for 15 + years. As a result, I think a have a fairly clear understanding of smooth, flat, frequency response and good extension at the frequency extremes. These characteristics are highly sought after in the speaker based world and most audiophiles consider these characteristics ESSENTIAL in trying to correctly duplicate the musical material on the disc you are spinning. So, I suppose, I've brought these preconceptions to the headphone world- which seems rational and reasonable. In my above audition, I tried to eliminate front-end and amplifier shortcomings from the equation by using some of the finest black boxes available today. So all thats left to evaluate are the cans. In terms of satisfying the above noted objectives of smooth, flat, frequency response with good extension in the bass and treble- The SENN. 650 / CARDAS combo is the clearly superior set-up. Great tight, reasonably extended bass response, with smooth FLAT frequency response up thru the (again) reasonably extended highs. I feel that FLAT FREQUNCY RESPONSE is CRITICAL to faithfully reproducing the musical event. Peaks and Valleys, Bloats and Leanness all detract from the performance. These characteristics may be entertaining, but I think a knowledgeable listener will grow tired of them, over time. SONY R10- Very seductive tonal quality thru-out alot of the frequency range. The mids on up were smooth, warm and nicely bloomy, with-out deviating TOO far from flat response. There seemed to be a general and very PLEASANT Honey Colored coating to the sound. Some would call it a tubey quality. I, BTW, prefer clean tube amps to solid state. The BASS SUCKED!! It was ill defined, very bloaty and lacked decent extension and slam. In terms of slam- it was like hitting a baseball with tuna instead of a bat!! My focus was drawn away from the music by this miserable bass response. I know that the R10 has near cult status among very knowlegeable Headfiers. and that's why I ask my question in this forum. I was told by the person who shared his time and equipment with me, for the above listening session, that with the R10s you need to, essentially, unlearn what you've grown accustomed to responding to and just listen to them for a week or two- at which time you'll be unable or unwilling to put on any other headphone. That comment seems to support the CULT status aspect of these cans. Maybe there's soom kind of subliminal message reproduction these cans are transmitting to indoctrinate new listeners into the fold. In defense of the R10s- I really did like the general sonic signiture, ALOT. With the bass problem corrected- the R10s would probably be my choice over the 650 / Cardas combo, even considering the VAST difference in price. But at this point- I can't get past the bass response. I'd value the comments of all you, well seasoned, Headfiers. If I'm missing something, on the R100s- I'd like to know.

Well they're a cult because no one can afford them.

As to whether you like them or not thats up to you at the end of the day. I mean everyones different and I'm sure that r10s like all cans are an acquired taste.
Also the pschology behind buying the r10s is very strong. Firstly they're b** **y expensive which makes you think that they're very good before you've even heard them, I mean how can a company charge so much for such a product unless they're the best? Secondly the associated products with the r10s: When you buy them any 'flaws' are always with the amps and sources you use them with, not the cans, so you buy much better equipment to make 'full' use of the r10s. Perhaps you are really masking its flaws to cover your own dissapointment.
Nevermind I mean the r10s are probably only 5% better than a hd-650/cd3000 with similarly priced matched equipment anyway, personally I think anyone with enough cash to spend $2000-$3000 just on a 5% improvement in sound quality should give the money to charity anyway.

Also I'm from the camp that says if there's no measurable improvement, then there's only a psychological one. I mean cd3000s are $400 and made of the same diaphragm material as the r-10s. Where did the extra $1600 come from? The wood?

IMO they were probably a 'my ones bigger than yours' corporate exercise in snobbiness and P.R. Sony like to be the best, and if that means justifying producing what are the most expensive headphones ever produced so be it.

 

[fbhifi]

The R10s made me do it !!

 

[markl]

Well, with all the recent Senn bashing/discussion, I suppose it's the R10's turn...

R10s are missing the bottom octave in the bass region that you get with a subwoofer, that's definitely true. I would also go so far as to say that the R10 rolls off bass response at a point slightly before where the HD600 rolls off. However, no headphone can do the subwoofer-like bass response of a speaker, they just can't; it seems to be an inherent draw-back of headphones, the diaphragms just aren't big enough to move enough air to produce the physical sensation of bass. Coming from full-range speakers, I agree it can take some re-adjustment of your expectations.
Quote:

The BASS SUCKED!! It was ill defined, very bloaty and lacked decent extension and slam. In terms of slam- it was like hitting a baseball with tuna instead of a bat!! My focus was drawn away from the music by this miserable bass response.

Can you clarify, how can you say its "bloaty" yet lacks slam? Does it have too much or too little bass? After living with the R10 for a long time and then being sent a re-cabled HD600 to compare against (I had sold my own HD600s a couple years before), I found switching between the two pretty shocking. Everyone always complains the HD600 is too bass-heavy and the R10 too bass-shy, but my experience was the exact opposite. The R10s had considerably more bass volume than the HD600s, although they appear to roll off a bit sooner than the Senns, so they don't go as deep. Also, to me in my rig, the Senns *in comparison to the R10s* have a sort of one-note bass response, where the R10 is relatively more articulate, and better at reproducing subtle changes of bass tonality and bass detail.

I use the Ray Samuels Emmeline HR-2 a solid state amp with the R10. I've never heard any of Singlepower's offereings, but it may be that switching amplification might change the R10s bass response to some degree, though I doubt it would be enough to change your opinion about its bass response. Quote:

In terms of satisfying the above noted objectives of smooth, flat, frequency response with good extension in the bass and treble- The SENN. 650 / CARDAS combo is the clearly superior set-up.

Here's the basic "problem" with the HD600s (can't really comment on the HD650s) that I and some other Members have; sure they give the illusion of being completely "flat" when you first put them on and are scrutinizing for things that stick out to criticize, the Senns are *extremely* polite, well-behaved, reserved, and...

DULL DULL DULL..... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....

Try listening to them for a long period of time, and you may find that the (in)famous "Sennheiser veil" sucks all the life and joy out of the music. For some, the Senns just aren't involving, they're not especially transparent.

In sum, if things like resolution/detail/transparency, soundstage/imaging and air, as well as great tone/timbre are your hot-buttons, the R10s are an easy choice. If you want *everything* to stick out, as opposed to having *nothing* stick out, the R10s are a good choice for you. If enjoyment is the goal, the R10s are a good bet.

If things like having a perceived flat frequency response is your hot-button, the Senns make a good choice. If you want *nothing* to stick out, as opposed to having *everything* stick out, the Senns are a good choice. If you are analytical about the sound, and focused on keeping things polite and reserved, the Senns are a safe bet.

If you prefer the Senns basic presentation, that's a lucky thing for you, you'll be saving A LOT of money. No headphone is perfect, no matter what the price-tag. Headphones like all things in audio are a series of compromises. Headphone technology is not as evolved as speaker technology; there are far fewer players in the game, far less incentive to innovate and push the envelope.

You may want to take a listen the new Sony Qualia headphones, based on your descriptions they may make a better fit for you sonically than the R10s. Cheers.

 

[NotoriousBIG_PJ]

I say its cult status is derserved. The can clearly does some things that other headphones do not. That said, I personally dislike the r-10.

Biggie.

 

[TimSchirmer]

I really think the problem was in your source. Meridian CDP's and sony R10's just don't work together. I suggest you try the setup with a sony SCD-1 or similar.

I have no idea why so many headphone people consider meridian a reference quality source. I've heard the G08 and several in the Meridian 508 series and found that they really dulled down the sound in whatever rig i tried them in

 

[chumley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimSchirmer I really think the problem was in your source. Meridian CDP's and sony R10's just don't work together. I suggest you try the setup with a sony SCD-1 or similar. I have no idea why so many headphone people consider meridian a reference quality source. I've heard the G08 and several in the Meridian 508 series and found that they really dulled down the sound in whatever rig i tried them in

Dunno about the G08 being a 'dulling, rather tahn a sharpening, component, it sure is with my home rig...

That said, I've owned the R10s, and auditioned them with a LOT of different high-end sources and amps; they don't deliver the way I expect a HUGELY overpriced and overrated set of cans to, including A/B 'ing the R10s and my Senn 650/Cardas, both in balanced and unbalanced configs, from a L3 modded Music Hall CD 25 through a Blockhead w/SA's and a Gilmore Dynamic Reference...

The R10s' rep's kinda like the what ref said, while the fighting hockey players charged around him in 'Slap Shot': "...too much, too soon..."

 

[Kirosia]

There is no perfect phone. Just really good ones.

 

[Sovkiller]

I have tried both briefly, in the last NYC mini-meet, and maybe it is due a personal prefference, but I felt in love with the R-10, and I consider the R-10 to be in a completelly different league to the HD650, I don't even consider the HD650 at the same level of others like CD3000 or K-1000, too dull in comparison IMO, and too dull IMO to be considered by me as an option among the high end cans to own in the future, I tried it with the Zu Mobious, take it as grain of salt, and all IMO and IME, i listen them in the Supra, Maestro, my PPA, Solo, Melos, etc....

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl Here's the basic "problem" with the HD600s (can't really comment on the HD650s) that I and some other Members have; sure they give the illusion of being completely "flat" when you first put them on and are scrutinizing for things that stick out to criticize, the Senns are *extremely* polite, well-behaved, reserved, and... DULL DULL DULL..... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..... Try listening to them for a long period of time, and you may find that the (in)famous "Sennheiser veil" sucks all the life and joy out of the music. For some, the Senns just aren't involving, they're not especially transparent. If things like having a perceived flat frequency response is your hot-button, the Senns make a good choice. If you want *nothing* to stick out, as opposed to having *everything* stick out, the Senns are a good choice. If you are analytical about the sound, and focused on keeping things polite and reserved, the Senns are a safe bet.

I have the same exact read on the HD-650, I think your 600 description applies to them also. Although I'm in the dislike 650 camp, I think the strengths you noted are accurate also.

 

[fbhifi]

Markl- Thank you, in particular, for you CONSTRUCTIVE comments. This is what I was looking for. A few points of clarification- The R10 bass has- TOO MUCH and TOO LITTLE bass- the mid/upper bass seemed bloated, loose and ill defined- this is unacceptable in a $4000 / $2500 street price headphone! The lowest bass (obviously NO HEADPHONE can reproduce 20hz. bass) was simply absent- compared to the 650. I can't speak for the 600s, but the 650s are absolutely NOT BASS HEAVY!! They are one of the few cans that have reasonably deep, accurate bass response. I didn't hear the more "articulate" bass you noted in the R10- I heard just the opposite- innarticulate, bloated bass.

If flat frequency response is DULL to you, so be it. IMO- the rational approach is to find components (includung cans) that have flat, extended frequency response. If that's too DULL for you, flavor to your tastes with amp, tubes, wire selections. Starting with an innacurate transducer (which I DON'T THINK THE R10 IS- just impaired in the bass) and building you high-end system around it is a flawed approach.

Those of you who feel the R10 is in another league in comparison to the 650s-great! Now if you really want to contribute something constructive, other than shallow one line bashes of the 650s, to this thread- Explain, in specific detail, the various strengths of your beloved R10s.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fbhifi Markl- Thank you, in particular, for you CONSTRUCTIVE comments. This is what I was looking for. A few points of clarification- The R10 bass has- TOO MUCH and TOO LITTLE bass- the mid/upper bass seemed bloated, loose and ill defined- this is unacceptable in a $4000 / $2500 street price headphone! The lowest bass (obviously NO HEADPHONE can reproduce 20hz. bass) was simply absent- compared to the 650. I can't speak for the 600s, but the 650s are absolutely NOT BASS HEAVY!! They are one of the few cans that have reasonably deep, accurate bass response. I didn't hear the more "articulate" bass you noted in the R10- I heard just the opposite- innarticulate, bloated bass. If flat frequency response is DULL to you, so be it. IMO- the rational approach is to find components (includung cans) that have flat, extended frequency response. If that's too DULL for you, flavor to your tastes with amp, tubes, wire selections. Starting with an innacurate transducer (which I DON'T THINK THE R10 IS- just impaired in the bass) and building you high-end system around it is a flawed approach. Those of you who feel the R10 is in another league in comparison to the 650s-great! Now if you really want to contribute something constructive, other than shallow one line bashes of the 650s, to this thread- Explain, in specific detail, the various strengths of your beloved R10s.

According to studies, the response in headphone listening could never be flat, just do a search for "biophonic curves", due to resonances of human ear conduct and other anomalies to consider, just take a look in the link from headwize, this is a mistake that we had to accept for years and years....

Here is an example, flat curves are for speakers not headphones....

 

[Wmcmanus]

Yes, there is an R10 cult, but we're not going to tell you what the secret handshake is.

 

[fbhifi]

Without the sharing of the secret handshake- the cult cannot survive.

 

[fbhifi]

Sovkiller- Interesting link. If flat frequency response with headpones is a physical impossiblity- due to the ear structure- does one then disregard obvious frequency anomolies in a headphone or other component because the flat absolute is unattainable?? That makes no sense!! The only thing we CAN achieve is the PERCEPTION of flat response. I perceive the R10s to have annomolies in their bass response as compared to the 650s. Are the 650s more flat than the R10s? I suppose it doesn't matter, but one's PERCEPTION of that area of music reproduction DOES MATTER.