Obscure Chinese DAPs
Sep 11, 2016 at 6:12 AM Post #1,309 of 8,127
A HDMI port ? What is 'SAW_Link' ?
 
Sep 12, 2016 at 5:06 AM Post #1,310 of 8,127
Hello people!
I just read on a russian forum that the Ruizu X02 (also known as AGPTek A02) has the same CPU ATJ2127 of the Benjie C1 (or Benjie K9).
So the question is: is there a difference is terms of sound quality between the two daps?
 
Sep 15, 2016 at 12:04 PM Post #1,311 of 8,127
Hi all. I'm getting slowly back into the hobby and was looking for a good bargain with a dap+iem to supplement my somewhat aging gear that sits unused in my home.
 
As I am digitizing my whole 30+ years worth of vinyls and cds so I wanted a somewhat good source for uncompressed audio.
 
The Agptek H1 (aigo 108) reviewed by kalo86 got me inspired, so in a moment of compulsion i took an H1 and pair of zircons and a pair of mula off Amazon.
 
I tough you might want to hear my impressions. There's a lot of good things about this dap and a few bad possible dealbreakers.
 
First of all, the H1 has a very sturdy construction. Feels heavy and nice in the hand and gives you a desire to just hold it while walking, or throw it in your jeans pockets and forget about it.
 
First thing I did was to update the software to the latest available (1.30.04, dated 2016-06-30). The procedure is simple so I won't deal with it here.
 
The software is not bad. The UI can do with some working, but in general it's very responsive and there's no delay after keypresses. 
 
The navigation in simple. You get a choice of "All Songs", "Artists", "Albums", "Genres", "Playlists" and "Folder". Basically all are useless but Folder and Playlists.
 
The titles in all but folders are limited to 12 characters (ouch!). Generating the list the first time will stop the music and you'll have to wait.
 
Navigating the folders is better, where names are limited to 28 characters. This is not too bad, but still not enough for the folks like me who tend to use long, descriptive names. 
 
For the folders, there is no sorting on the fly. The names come up in whatever order are in the directory. You'll need to use a FAT sorter on your computer if you want them in any specific order.
 
The screen is nice and bright. The "playing now" page could use some work. The album pictures are too small and there's too much wasted space on the screen that could be used for showing bigger cover art, and more information like format (I.e. FLAC 24/48 and not just FLAC) etc.
 
Ok, enough about the software, you want to head about the hardware and the music right ?
 
All I can say is: Not bad at all. Excellent for the money, but bear with me.
 
I'll start by repeating what was already said for the H1+Zircons and H1+Mulas.
 
The zircons are really "bassy" and distinctively heavier than the Mulas. The Mulas feel more open and airy. Mids and Highs are similar and neutral. The sound stage is wide and instruments are steady and precise. In the bass region the Mulas are more neutral and I would say "correct" for a monitor. The Zircons are overpowering there but manage to stay clean and tight. There's little (if any) leaks in the lower mids.
 
With that off, let's go back to the H1. It spots two outputs. A headphone and a Line-Out. Any difference between the two ? You bet, and a big one too. A nice feature is that the line-out can be set to follow the volume knob. Did I say that the knob and the fine control for output level are the best feature in the H1 ? It's superb.
 
Ok back to business. I was saying that there's a difference. The Line-out is very neutral. I bet it's flat and totally capable of driving an amp or a small IEM like the RZ and the RM. It's a perfect match for the portable amp or even that big bad box sitting on my bench.
 
On the contrary, the phone-out sounds like a "loundness" switch was turned on. The bass mids and highs are noticeably higher. The feeling is like an EQ is turned on with a W curve setting. Retrieval stays generally good and I cannot say bad things about this except that all fells a little unnatural. This is specially true with the Zircons where the bass region starts to be felt physically (your ears move).
 
So what this is good for is to adapt the dap to the hp used. Sometimes it's better to use the lineout and sometimes it's better to use the phone out. PO is also usefull when listening at very low volumes (like at night) as different frequencies come out different depending on the volume.
 
I tried a couple other phones, namely some old PX100-II and an old HD495S whose sound I like a lot. Why I use such old stuff ? Because I know how it's supposed to sound and can tell immediately what's going on.
 
The HD495 is a power hungry beast. It's hard to make it sound nicely without a proper amp. The PX100-II instead is easy and with good low extension for the size. They both did OK, but the 495 really needed the PO and higher volumes. I can feel it sucking all juices out of the H1 and wanting more. An external amp is definitely recommended with power hungly phones.
 
Now for the bad part. The Phone Out of the H1 is noisy! And for noisy I mean they could use a few more filters in the amp stage and could probably route the grounds better to separate the digital part from the dac and the amps. With very efficient IEMs like the Zircons you can clearly hear the cpu generated noise spilling the the audio band. 
 
For this test I use a silence flac but also low volume classical music. It's clearly audible on the intro of Time and DSOTM too. If you play with the screen the noises follow louder. With the screen off they're much less, but still present.
 
You can't hear this with full size phones. I was thinking of some sort of capacity coupling with the RZ but moving them apart and orienting the cable in different ways makes no difference. 
 
The line out is fortunately not affected.
 
However, I like this dap. It's a keeper. For the price, you can't do much better and now that amazon has it cheaper than ali and the others, it's a no-brainer.
 
Sep 15, 2016 at 1:09 PM Post #1,312 of 8,127
Hi all. I'm getting slowly back into the hobby and was looking for a good bargain with a dap+iem to supplement my somewhat aging gear that sits unused in my home.

As I am digitizing my whole 30+ years worth of vinyls and cds so I wanted a somewhat good source for uncompressed audio.

The Agptek H1 (aigo 108) reviewed by kalo86 got me inspired, so in a moment of compulsion i took an H1 and pair of zircons and a pair of mula off Amazon.

I tough you might want to hear my impressions. There's a lot of good things about this dap and a few bad possible dealbreakers.

First of all, the H1 has a very sturdy construction. Feels heavy and nice in the hand and gives you a desire to just hold it while walking, or throw it in your jeans pockets and forget about it.

First thing I did was to update the software to the latest available (1.30.04, dated 2016-06-30). The procedure is simple so I won't deal with it here.

The software is not bad. The UI can do with some working, but in general it's very responsive and there's no delay after keypresses. 

The navigation in simple. You get a choice of "All Songs", "Artists", "Albums", "Genres", "Playlists" and "Folder". Basically all are useless but Folder and Playlists.

The titles in all but folders are limited to 12 characters (ouch!). Generating the list the first time will stop the music and you'll have to wait.

Navigating the folders is better, where names are limited to 28 characters. This is not too bad, but still not enough for the folks like me who tend to use long, descriptive names. 

For the folders, there is no sorting on the fly. The names come up in whatever order are in the directory. You'll need to use a FAT sorter on your computer if you want them in any specific order.

The screen is nice and bright. The "playing now" page could use some work. The album pictures are too small and there's too much wasted space on the screen that could be used for showing bigger cover art, and more information like format (I.e. FLAC 24/48 and not just FLAC) etc.

Ok, enough about the software, you want to head about the hardware and the music right ?

All I can say is: Not bad at all. Excellent for the money, but bear with me.

I'll start by repeating what was already said for the H1+Zircons and H1+Mulas.

The zircons are really "bassy" and distinctively heavier than the Mulas. The Mulas feel more open and airy. Mids and Highs are similar and neutral. The sound stage is wide and instruments are steady and precise. In the bass region the Mulas are more neutral and I would say "correct" for a monitor. The Zircons are overpowering there but manage to stay clean and tight. There's little (if any) leaks in the lower mids.

With that off, let's go back to the H1. It spots two outputs. A headphone and a Line-Out. Any difference between the two ? You bet, and a big one too. A nice feature is that the line-out can be set to follow the volume knob. Did I say that the knob and the fine control for output level are the best feature in the H1 ? It's superb.

Ok back to business. I was saying that there's a difference. The Line-out is very neutral. I bet it's flat and totally capable of driving an amp or a small IEM like the RZ and the RM. It's a perfect match for the portable amp or even that big bad box sitting on my bench.

On the contrary, the phone-out sounds like a "loundness" switch was turned on. The bass mids and highs are noticeably higher. The feeling is like an EQ is turned on with a W curve setting. Retrieval stays generally good and I cannot say bad things about this except that all fells a little unnatural. This is specially true with the Zircons where the bass region starts to be felt physically (your ears move).

So what this is good for is to adapt the dap to the hp used. Sometimes it's better to use the lineout and sometimes it's better to use the phone out. PO is also usefull when listening at very low volumes (like at night) as different frequencies come out different depending on the volume.

I tried a couple other phones, namely some old PX100-II and an old HD495S whose sound I like a lot. Why I use such old stuff ? Because I know how it's supposed to sound and can tell immediately what's going on.

The HD495 is a power hungry beast. It's hard to make it sound nicely without a proper amp. The PX100-II instead is easy and with good low extension for the size. They both did OK, but the 495 really needed the PO and higher volumes. I can feel it sucking all juices out of the H1 and wanting more. An external amp is definitely recommended with power hungly phones.

Now for the bad part. The Phone Out of the H1 is noisy! And for noisy I mean they could use a few more filters in the amp stage and could probably route the grounds better to separate the digital part from the dac and the amps. With very efficient IEMs like the Zircons you can clearly hear the cpu generated noise spilling the the audio band. 

For this test I use a silence flac but also low volume classical music. It's clearly audible on the intro of Time and DSOTM too. If you play with the screen the noises follow louder. With the screen off they're much less, but still present.

You can't hear this with full size phones. I was thinking of some sort of capacity coupling with the RZ but moving them apart and orienting the cable in different ways makes no difference. 

The line out is fortunately not affected.

However, I like this dap. It's a keeper. For the price, you can't do much better and now that amazon has it cheaper than ali and the others, it's a no-brainer.


Thank You for this amazing review, very technical, my compliments! I hope AGPTek updates the firmware in order to fix at least the EQ volume sound drop, the file and folder sort (in alphabetical way) and the possibility to play tracks gapless.
 
Sep 18, 2016 at 8:06 PM Post #1,315 of 8,127
hi there. just some advice needed.. what do you think about these players?
 
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Nondestructive-Smart-Player-D200-AK4495SEQ-interchangeable-op-amp/32613749934.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_10,searchweb201602_3_10065_10068_9982_10069_418_10017_10060_10061_10062_10057_10056_10055_10037_10054_301_10033_10059_10032_10058_10073_10070_10052_10053_10050_10051,searchweb201603_1&btsid=f12765f3-7cd8-4d66-8e20-04e5adcae383#feedback
 
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/HIFI-fever-lossless-portable-music-player-AK4495SEQ-super-CS4398-USB-DAC-DSD-hardware-solution/32638881409.html
 
According to a feedback´s buyer the last one sounds better than his cowon plenue 1...
confused_face_2.gif

 
Sep 18, 2016 at 10:07 PM Post #1,316 of 8,127

These guys are really taking the piss! The pricing on obscure, unknown DAP's is getting out of hand. Who do these guys think they are? Astel & Kern? This is just getting stupid now. Just say no. We need to vote with our feet and walk away from these insane deals. When a known, proven dap maker charges an outlandish amount for a dap, I can understand it (not approve of it, just understand it) but when some no-name outfit wants to jump on the band wagon and charge these prices, we need to draw the line and not pay these prices. I think if people knew the actual hard cost of some of these devices, they would be shocked! Lets not be taken advantage of people. Just my 2c worth.
 
Sep 18, 2016 at 10:18 PM Post #1,317 of 8,127
 
These guys are really taking the piss! The pricing on obscure, unknown DAP's is getting out of hand. Who do these guys think they are? Astel & Kern? This is just getting stupid now. Just say no. We need to vote with our feet and walk away from these insane deals. When a known, proven dap maker charges an outlandish amount for a dap, I can understand it (not approve of it, just understand it) but when some no-name outfit wants to jump on the band wagon and charge these prices, we need to draw the line and not pay these prices. I think if people knew the actual hard cost of some of these devices, they would be shocked! Lets not be taken advantage of people. Just my 2c worth.

What player are you talking about. Besides AK are a bad example, as they are the greediest brand out there, with clearly the lowest price to sound quality ratio. Try to compare the Lotoo Paw Gold and AK120 II at the same price and have a laugh.
 
Sep 19, 2016 at 3:39 AM Post #1,320 of 8,127

 
 
Both actually have decent architecture, they are not completely rubbish daps like most of the <$150 daps in this thread (in terms of hardware design, no idea on their UI and firmware).
 
Both using dual circuit board's for separate digital and analog sections, and trying to implement a good digital audio process; The first dap is using a cortex m4 cpu + wolfson wm8804 with single clock to send i2s to the dac, while the second linked dap is using a cortex m7 cpu + altera cpld with dual clocks to send i2s to the dac. I prefer the digital process of the second dap, but there is no pcb pictures of the first dap's digital board, only analog pcb is shown, so I can't compare other quality points between them. Also a large part of the audio quality is actually determined by how well the software is interfacing between the cpu and i2s platform, which remains unknown for both.
 
Both using a good amount of electrolytic capacitors that slim daps can't fit, the second cheaper dap using good sanyo capacitors for power supply and elna caps on the output, while the $330 dap using unknown caps for the power supply and rifa tube caps on the output (interesting), both are using plenty of good model opamps through out, lme49720, muses8920 etc.
 
I like the design ethos of the cheaper one better, but still given it's price there has been sacrifices made, it uses a cheap volume pot for example, you may get channel imbalances when using sensitive iems depending on the gain of the output which isn't mentioned. The first dap does have some good points, has a 12v power supply vs 9v on the cheaper dap, and the power supply is housed in a shielded compartment as well. These two daps do look good to me, some effort has been made in their hardware design.
 
The first $330 dap is a lot of money to risk, even though it could sound good though, but I'd rather buy an Aune M2 at $350 to be on the safe side. But the second dap at $150 is a good buy if the software side is any good, as the hardware mostly checks out, much better audio design than all the other <$150 daps mentioned so far. Although I already have daps that I know will be better than it (QLS QA360LE), but if I only had $150 and didn't mind the looks and size, I would actually strongly consider it! Edit: I actually might buy it for fun, pretty curious, it should sound pretty good if I'm right it will punch above it's price (somewhat), I'm not expecting a giant killer or anything, but it may compete with daps twice the price though.
 

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