[obobskivich]

to warpdriver, I honestly think Grado is just as full of it with their cables, cable hype is bad marketing, I was just trying to answer his question (since he noted it, but also noted he had no clue what it meant), of the listed hp's I put up, six are currently available at new retail, at or around ~$700, four are available semi-commonly used at or around ~$700, one is ambiguous (the Stax comment, mostly because at or around $1k, theres about 100 different ways to build a Stax system), and one I threw in there just to (admittedly) pad the list, and give a bit of a hyperbolic example (the HE60, which I believe many would agree is superior to the D7000, and isn't "that much more expensive" purchased used), most of those hp's are regarded as better, either slightly or massively, by those who own them, which was another point

you'll have to forgive me, I have no idea what an "Omega" or a "Patek" is, but I do understand the car analogy, quite frankly, I'd take the used 911 over the new 350Z, for a few reasons, first of all, new cars lose value worse, cost more to insure, are generally all plastic, and I also just hate Nissan as an automaker

honestly I think its a pretty fair comparison, I'm saying that if you're gonna spend that much, get the most for your money, even if its used equipment, than just buying new "to have that new car smell", its fun to do once, but thats about it

@robonaut, you REALLY don't want my opinion of markl or lawton audio, so don't go there (I'm asking politely, for the second time), my reason for viewing the D7000 as a waste of cash at its original price (I have said that at the $550-$600 its going for now its a good price and I view it as fairly priced, but apparently that isn't getting in), given that its just a hopped up D2000, which is a pretty undetailed and unresolving closed 'phone (same for the D5000), at least contrasted to other 'phones I've heard at the $1k mark (such as some of those listed, no I have not heard *all* of them, but enough to know theres better out there)

like I've said, for under $600, the D7000 is very fairly priced, same goes for the D5000 at the $400 mark (its really gotten that low in the last week or two? I remember seeing it for $500 at headroom about a month ago and thinking the price was good at the time), its just that putting it up into the $800-$1200 range theres a lot of fierce competition, and a lot of 'phones that IME are more capable, and I don't feel all alone saying this

as far as robonaut and your "smoked" issue, I do apologize, like I've said, this isn't Car & Driver, and you can't have one be quantitatively better than the other in an objective manner

 

[Audioi]

I think there are a few reasons for the street price drop.

#1 the D5000 outsold the D7000 almost 3 to 1. The D7000's were sitting on the shelf.
#2 the profit margin is greater on the D7000 and therefore easier to drop and still create some profit.
#3 you are seeing the effects of a slow down economy from the guys that happened to have a large inventory and wondering if they would ever start to sell.
Now that there is momentum and the large dealers sold out the price is returning to its original state.
Wait till you hear whats next......

 

[Fido2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audioi /img/forum/go_quote.gif ....Wait till you hear whats next......

Oh no. What?

 

[obobskivich]

price gouging, likely

 

[cegras]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif A word of support for Beach - I bought my Nikon and a couple other things from them. No nonsense, everything arrived when it should have and no complaints. I would buy from Beach again. As for the price drops, I think that the market is getting softer by the day and they're trying to move product. They probably built too many of them, as well, and are trying to clear inventory. Luxury sales are off and will be going further off - I'm holding out for awhile before I make any more audio purchases. I think the best deals are yet to come.

If the price is reduced by half, and let us for a moment imagine that they can still make money, can we take a moment to be horrified at the mark up?

 

[obobskivich]

welcome to consumer electronics

spend some time looking for an article that came out a year or two ago about Monster product mark-ups in American Radio Shack outlets, then be horrified

 

[Rob T]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif welcome to consumer electronics spend some time looking for an article that came out a year or two ago about Monster product mark-ups in American Radio Shack outlets, then be horrified

Monster products sold at any retail brick and mortar have huge mark ups, including Best Buy. It certainly isn't limited to Radio Shack.

 

[obobskivich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob T /img/forum/go_quote.gif Monster products sold at any retail brick and mortar have huge mark ups, including Best Buy. It certainly isn't limited to Radio Shack.

NO WAY! REALLY?!

...if you'd read what I wrote, and then had gone and looked into it, you'd know I'm talking about a specific news article which used Radio Shack as its case study, which is why I gave such specific information when suggesting the user to go look up the article

 

[warpdriver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif to warpdriver, I honestly think Grado is just as full of it with their cables, cable hype is bad marketing, I was just trying to answer his question (since he noted it, but also noted he had no clue what it meant), of the listed hp's I put up, six are currently available at new retail, at or around ~$700, four are available semi-commonly used at or around ~$700, one is ambiguous (the Stax comment, mostly because at or around $1k, theres about 100 different ways to build a Stax system), and one I threw in there just to (admittedly) pad the list, and give a bit of a hyperbolic example (the HE60, which I believe many would agree is superior to the D7000, and isn't "that much more expensive" purchased used), most of those hp's are regarded as better, either slightly or massively, by those who own them, which was another point

It's still apples and oranges. You can concluded the Denon is poor value based on the fact you might consider buying a used HE60 or Stax, but I wouldn't do that, so for me, your argument is moot.

You don't like Nissan but the 370Z is objectively every bit as capable as the Cayman, and it comes with a new car warranty, probably won't break as often, the parts and repair are generally less, so I personally would conclude it's a better value than a used Porsche, but for some reason, due to some personal bias or experience, you wouldn't.

So what I can conclude is different people can arrive at different value judgements. I've heard the Denons and I've loved them, so it's a natural for me to consider moving up the scale even if the law of diminishing returns takes effect. As for comparing models of the same brand, I used Grado as an example of poor cost incremental benefit going up the line, but I could find similar example looking at the lines of other makers as well. Does a DT880 cost more to make than a DT770, yet it costs a lot more? Does a HD600 cost 2X more to make than a HD580? The HD600 sounded much like the HD580 to me.

My point is that the D7000's value is highly subjective and a value judgement that every individual makes for himself. You've laid out some of your own judgements (but not on actually listening and comparing yourself it seems

). You can think that the D7000 is poor value and that's why the price is going down, but it's probably just the natural street price the headphone settles down to because there is too much stock on hand and Denon left the dealers with a large margin so they can discount more. Given the D7000 is only $120 more than a D5000, I would definitely pay the increment just to get a nicer box, have the nicer finish and wood, and I expect the Denon did their research in finding out a stronger magnet does improve the sound (which I will accept for now but reserve judgement once I hear them for myself). Once I do, I'll report back and tell all you guys whether I think it's worth it over the D5000, not a minute sooner. I will say I think the D5000's sound is better than the D2000 noticeably, so the question for me is how much better the D7000 is over the D5000, not the D2000

Any high end headphone is poor value, because it's more than likely the cost of materials is not reflected in their high price. As everybody knows, luxury items are all high profit items, part of their high price is due to marketing costs, and their artificially inflated prices sometimes are set only at the level they are to make them more desirable (that's where the marketing comes into play)

 

[obobskivich]

I'm saying, its a poor value contrasted to other values at that price range, for example at the $1000 range, most Grado people view the RS-1 or GS-1000 as a huge improvement over the SR-125 or SR-225, most AKG people view the K1000 as a huge improvement over the K701 (theres other AKG's I know, such as the K340, and K702/701 with modification)

at $120 over the D5000, this is probably the fifth time I've said, its a helluva fair price (how loud do you need this said?)

basically I agreed with the original point, that at $1k it isn't selling, and went to elaborate that the $1k segment is fiercely competitive, and the gains held by the D7ks aren't perceived by many to justify (at a time) double the price of the D5k, although they may be there for many users (in other words, you note that its better, but is it 2x better to you?), while the D2k to the D5k is usually around a $100-$150 gap (its 2x at this point because the D2k's price has dropped so far) and isn't generally held to be twice as good, but is held to be "$100 better"

I never said Nissan isn't as capable as Porsche, I just hate their products

as far as the HD 600 vs HD 580 debate, the HD 580 (when new) cost as much as the HD 600 costs new today, and its basically a known fact that they're the same hardware, and the difference between them is more or less negligble, in other words the D5000 -> D7000 difference is larger

as far as the "you can think its a poor value and thats why its going down", you're agree with me, in saying "its probably just the nautral street price the headphone settles down to because where the demand is", in other words, demand isn't high enough at the price they wanted, because, surprise, the value wasn't there at the price they originally wanted, it all goes hand in hand

you're taking this emotionally because I don't like the headphone, and saying I just want to hate on it, that isn't the case, I'm saying in terms of economics, it was overpriced at $1000, and Denon (or retailers themselves) are responding to this and deciding to move units at a lower price, AT does the same thing wit hthe W5000, list on that is around $1700 US, however new street price is around $600-$800, at $1700 the W5000 is a straight ripoff, its massively overpriced and a total waste of time, however at $600-$800 its a nice product

also, I never said "new Cayman", I said used 911, theres quite a bit of difference (especially as the Cayman is based on the Boxster, which is a different vehicle from the 911)

luxury items have a decently high mark-up yes, but they are not high profit, because they move in very small units, if you believe Denon sees any profit margin on the D7000, I'd venture that you're probably mistaken, its probably a zero-sum for them, but it helps establish them in the headphone market as a serious competitor, its a statement product

as far as the high price to make it more desirable, theres actually a psychological principle that explains just that (can't think of the name atm), basically the only reason people like a Rolls-Royce or a Ferrari is the high price, not the actual quality of the vehicle, to grossly over simplify it

 

[warpdriver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif you're taking this emotionally because I don't like the headphone

I'm not taking it emotionally at all, because I could give a crap about what you think about the D7000. I haven't heard one either and I have no stake in one yet. I wouldn't have even bothered replying your posts *if* you actually heard and compared one yourself to other $1000 headphones. I've heard some of the headphones on your $1K list (that you proport that *may* be better) but I wouldn't take most of those for $1000 either. When I get my D7000, I may give a detailed review, but unlike you I won't make any final value judgements until I put them through my reference tracks. If I find it poor value, I'll just sell it off eventually when I get around to it

 

[obobskivich]

I said may be better, speaking in terms of other users' opinions

in my opinion, the GS-1000 is a superior 'phone at that price segment, and the K701 is still better than either of them

its all subjective anyways, so who gives a damn what anyone thinks of them, except you (the listener)

 

[scytheavatar]

The difference between the D5000 and D7000 is much more than the difference between the SR225 and RS1...

I do agree that the D7000 isn't worth $1000 but <$600 is too cheap for them. And you do realize that the D7000 uses a different driver than the D5000, do you?

And why are you comparing the D7000 to the K701 and GS1000 when they are different sounding phones? At least compare the D7000 to the HD650, and I think that the D7000 is definitely a nice upgrade to the HD650, or the DX1000, where there's numerous comparisons done already.

 

[obobskivich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scytheavatar /img/forum/go_quote.gif The difference between the D5000 and D7000 is much more than the difference between the SR225 and RS1... I do agree that the D7000 isn't worth $1000 but <$600 is too cheap for them. And you do realize that the D7000 uses a different driver than the D5000, do you?

about as much as I realize the HD 580 uses a different driver than the HD 600

make whatever value claims you'd like, like I said, who gives a damn what anyone thinks of them, except the listener, as a society (head-fi) we need to stop the whole "NO THIS IS BETTER THAN THAT" "THIS IS BIGGER THAN THAT" trend, becuase as a larger society (humans) we love linear reasoning

audio and music is funny like that

and oh yeah, imho, the RS-1 and SR-225 are worlds apart

who's right?


































































give ya a hint: neither of us.

 

[warpdriver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif I said may be better, speaking in terms of other users' opinions in my opinion, the GS-1000 is a superior 'phone at that price segment, and the K701 is still better than either of them its all subjective anyways, so who gives a damn what anyone thinks of them, except you (the listener)

I completely disagree that the GS1000 is superior and that the K701 is better than both of them. The K701 is decent value but I think the GS1000 is a worse headphone than the D5000 at double the price, making it doubly poor value (Grado's MSRP policy eliminates any chance we'd see nice discounts like the D7000)

Other user's opinions are useful only if I haven't heard them. But they are pretty much useless if I have.