[stuartmc]

  My X12 has been sold to a lucky sailor. I still think it is a worthy recommendation for anyone looking for a smooth and musical Sabre in that price range. I did not sell it because I wasn't happy with it but for other reasons.
Anyway, if there is one quibble that I want to mention, then it is imaging/layering. To my ears, the X12 could image and layer instruments/voices in a strange manner, putting them closer together than I'd like I am used to. As in the center instruments and leading vocals sound big and meaty but the backing vocals and further placed instruments could sound stacked or placed in a weird way. IMO. YMMV.
Only quibble, Otherwise an excellent, quite detailed DAC, especially considering the tonality.

Capt. Guinea Pig had a little different experience with the X12.  I posted about this way back when.  I experienced some break in woes with the X12, but it wasn't as dramatic as the H10. There were only minor issues with bass extension and some treble edge that cleared up after about 40 hours.  For me, anyway, there was never a problem with weird imaging.  The soundstage was only slightly constricted during the break in period and then it opened up nicely.  After I got things sorted out and had plenty of burn in time, I compared the X12 to the Aune S16, an old school Belle Canto DAC and the Rega Apollo R.  All of these do soundstage/imaging quite well and to my ears, the X12 was close to the best of them in this regard. That best one being the Aune S16.  However, the X12 kicked the Aune's butt in tonality and macro-dynamics.

 

[stuartmc]

 
My participation on this thread has not to bash this equipment but to determine if what I am hearing is equipment related, source related, or between my ears related.  I cannot and will not change my musical preferences so the equipment can shine.  The equipment has to make my music shine and if it cannot(as it has proven on several important tracks to me)then it is not for me. 
 
My greatest concern now is no number of equipment changes or money spent is capable of making the music I prefer better.

Ahh, Mr. Pippen99, you have hit on one of the most frustrating aspects of high-end audio.  By the way, congratulations on your retirement. I'm getting close, but you know what they say, Lawyers never really retire, they just lose their appeal!   The frustration I speak of is the inability to truly enjoy some wonderful music because the recordings are utter crap.  Highly resolving gear will unmask all kinds of nastiness that hitherto went unnoticed.  It's a case where ignorance was bliss, but now the unvarnished truth spoils it.   I have listened to, and reviewed, so many outstanding recordings played on top of the line gear, that I really know what the medium is capable of, particularly in the reach out and touch it, soundstage/imaging aspect.  It's a different kind of bliss that is quite addicting, but for me, it was almost like Neo chosing the red or blue pill. Once I took the red pill, there was no going back to the comfort of the Matrix construct.  This phenomenon is precisely why many audiophiles highly prize certain recordings that might not have the best music, but are spectacularly mixed and mastered.  Unfortunately, there aren't all that many recordings that have it all, great music AND great sound. When you find them, you will have what we call an "eargasm." For me, the eargasm is worth my disappointment with some of the records I used to love.

 

[pippen99]

Thank you for your understanding and sympathy.  This system was intended to be an entry into this world, a starting point to point the way forward towards a topend system to play my music the way I thought it could be played.  Now I'm not sure there is a way forward.  You are correct.  There is most likely no going back.  But I wonder if as I move up the audio food chain will even more of my favorite music be revealed as lacking.  Guess I'll just play those tracks in the car!

 

[auvgeek]

 
Thank you for your understanding and sympathy.  This system was intended to be an entry into this world, a starting point to point the way forward towards a topend system to play my music the way I thought it could be played.  Now I'm not sure there is a way forward.  You are correct.  There is most likely no going back.  But I wonder if as I move up the audio food chain will even more of my favorite music be revealed as lacking.  Guess I'll just play those tracks in the car!

Have you found any tracks of "your music" that you think are just stunning on your Gustard stack?
 
PS. I know almost nothing about speakers, but you may have more luck with them in your audio quest.

 

[stuartmc]

Ha ha...That's exactly what I do. I play everything in the car!

 

[Liu Junyuan]

I have several recordings that end up splitting voices from instruments into separate channels, and those tend to be older ones. I heard this effect on my dad's Oppo HA-1 in addition to my gear. I recall this same thing on some of The Doors stuff on my hard drive, but I will have to wait until I can check later.

Some of the older blues recordings with Miles Davis can also sound pretty shoddy. Yeah, for those recordings, it is best to play them on a less technical setup. Honestly, at least you do not own the HD 800s, which make terrible recordings entirely unenjoyable.

Another thing to keep in mind is the way headphones separate sounds. For instance, HE 500 is fairly well known to produce a wall-of-sound effect by which everything is synthesized into a cohesive whole. By contrast, my AKGs (moreso with the Q701) analyze (that is, separate) the sound into its component parts, presenting an entirely different effect than HE 500's tendency toward synthesis. HE-560, since it is a reference headphone, is much better at separating out component parts but not to the extreme of an AKG or HD 800. I know because I listened to my dad's HE-560 for two weeks. By the way, I agree that HE-560 would probably synergize quite well with the H10's warmer signature (the same for HD 600 and I suspect a Beyer DT 880).

Without having heard the LCD-2, I have no clue how it presents and images sound; is it more synthetic or analytic? I am tempted to say it will lean more toward the HE-500 effect than the AKG based on my readings of its organic, lush signature. Fazor might change all of this of course.

Despite the importance of the phone, though, these traits of course exist with other gear in the chain (especially the DAC?). Sabre probably tends more toward analysis, but since X12 has been called "musical" and "natural", I wonder if it combines the best of both? With that said, think the phone carries the largest impact; an HD 800 will always be analytic. So people try to pair it with tubes and and non-sabre DACs.

Sorry for the long-winded post!

 

[bavinck]

I have several recordings that end up splitting voices from instruments into separate channels, and those tend to be older ones. I heard this effect on my dad's Oppo HA-1 in addition to my gear. I recall this same thing on some of The Doors stuff on my hard drive, but I will have to wait until I can check later.

Some of the older blues recordings with Miles Davis can also sound pretty shoddy. Yeah, for those recordings, it is best to play them on a less technical setup. Honestly, at least you do not own the HD 800s, which make terrible recordings entirely unenjoyable.

Another thing to keep in mind is the way headphones separate sounds. For instance, HE 500 is fairly well known to produce a wall-of-sound effect by which everything is synthesized into a cohesive whole. By contrast, my AKGs (moreso with the Q701) analyze (that is, separate) the sound into its component parts, presenting an entirely different effect than HE 500's tendency toward synthesis. HE-560, since it is a reference headphone, is much better at separating out component parts but not to the extreme of an AKG or HD 800. I know because I listened to my dad's HE-560 for two weeks. By the way, I agree that HE-560 would probably synergize quite well with the H10's warmer signature (the same for HD 600 and I suspect a Beyer DT 880).

Without having heard the LCD-2, I have no clue how it presents and images sound; is it more synthetic or analytic? I am tempted to say it will lean more toward the HE-500 effect than the AKG based on my readings of its organic, lush signature. Fazor might change all of this of course.

Despite the importance of the phone, though, these traits of course exist with other gear in the chain (especially the DAC?). Sabre probably tends more toward analysis, but since X12 has been called "musical" and "natural", I wonder if it combines the best of both? With that said, think the phone carries the largest impact; an HD 800 will always be analytic. So people try to pair it with tubes and and non-sabre DACs.

Sorry for the long-winded post!

Thabk you so much! Just moved from an akg k7xx to a hifiman he500, and you explained exactly what I am noticing as a difference but have been unable to describe. The he500 does indeed take some time to get used to compared to k7xx as everything is being blended together, and yet detail is still very present. It is very strange to my ears.

 

[Liu Junyuan]

Thabk you so much! Just moved from an akg k7xx to a hifiman he500, and you explained exactly what I am noticing as a difference but have been unable to describe. The he500 does indeed take some time to get used to compared to k7xx as everything is being blended together, and yet detail is still very present. It is very strange to my ears.

Well that is why I keep both. HE-500 is the clear winner in pure technicality, though. But AKGs also scale quite well, and they are so utterly picky with upstream gear, kind of like HD 800 but to a lesser extent. For instance, I dont know what it is about the Lyr that works so well with the K7xx, but the synergy is so good that it outshines my other phones on that particular amp while sounding terrible on the O2 (harsh, brittle, lifeless). Actually, I am curious whether this H10 can beat out the Lyr's effortless grace with K7xx.

As to the wall-of-sound effect, I believe it has something to so with the HE-500 voice coil, but this is where I need to do more research.

 

[pippen99]

 
Have you found any tracks of "your music" that you think are just stunning on your Gustard stack?
 
PS. I know almost nothing about speakers, but you may have more luck with them in your audio quest.

My latest purchase was Mark Knopfler's newest Tracker.  It was amazing and that is when I began to suspect that my musical choices were not optimal for a hi-fi headphone system.  As mentioned in Dave Mahler's post on the Beatles music Abbey Road and The White Album have some surprisingly musical tracks such as Come Together and Birthday.  Very well recorded.
 
I had hoped, maybe even expected that this headphone system would provide superior sound to my big system but my ADS l810's with a Yamaha sub are really better.

 

[pippen99]

Another thing to keep in mind is the way headphones separate sounds.

I just went and listened to Light My Fire using the HFI-2400s.  The LCD-2f does contribute some to the separation.  With the LCD-2f Manzarek sounds two rooms away.  With the HFI-2400s Manzarek and Densmore are on opposite sides of the same room or at least just inside the door of the next room.  I don't if know if this is dynamic vs planar difference or a dollar difference.

 

[Liu Junyuan]

I just went and listened to Light My Fire using the HFI-2400s.  The LCD-2f does contribute some to the separation.  With the LCD-2f Manzarek sounds two rooms away.  With the HFI-2400s Manzarek and Densmore are on opposite sides of the same room or at least just inside the door of the next room.  I don't if know if this is dynamic vs planar difference or a dollar difference.

Okay cool. It is not necessarily a dollar difference so much as the character of the driver. And yeah a planar always is different than a dynamic presentation. LCD 2F is a nice phone!

 

[Liu Junyuan]

My latest purchase was Mark Knopfler's newest Tracker.  It was amazing and that is when I began to suspect that my musical choices were not optimal for a hi-fi headphone system.  As mentioned in Dave Mahler's post on the Beatles music Abbey Road and The White Album have some surprisingly musical tracks such as Come Together and Birthday.  Very well recorded.

I had hoped, maybe even expected that this headphone system would provide superior sound to my big system but my ADS l810's with a Yamaha sub are really better.

It sounds like you are into classical rock. I have a modest collection of such recordings on my HDD. Most of Pink Floyd is very well recorded, especially Dark Side and Wish You Were Here. Rush did not take the cheap way out either.

 

[pippen99]

It sounds like you are into classical rock. I have a modest collection of such recordings on my HDD. Most of Pink Floyd is very well recorded, especially Dark Side and Wish You Were Here. Rush did not take the cheap way out either.

Classic rock is my music of choice.  Pink Floyd is good. Prefer Yes to Rush, well recorded.  Led Zeppelin is complete trash, hopelessly compressed.

 

[bavinck]

Well that is why I keep both. HE-500 is the clear winner in pure technicality, though. But AKGs also scale quite well, and they are so utterly picky with upstream gear, kind of like HD 800 but to a lesser extent. For instance, I dont know what it is about the Lyr that works so well with the K7xx, but the synergy is so good that it outshines my other phones on that particular amp while sounding terrible on the O2 (harsh, brittle, lifeless). Actually, I am curious whether this H10 can beat out the Lyr's effortless grace with K7xx.

As to the wall-of-sound effect, I believe it has something to so with the HE-500 voice coil, but this is where I need to do more research.

Out of my project Solstice the he500 almost pushes voices right into my face, whereas the k7xx voices came from on the stage. I am also really interested in how that might change on else I get my h10.

 

[bavinck]

Classic rock is my music of choice.  Pink Floyd is good. Prefer Yes to Rush, well recorded.  Led Zeppelin is complete trash, hopelessly compressed.

I agree with this. I bought the physical graphitie remastered - yuck!