[pippen99]

If you were to read through the entire 68 pages of this thread (I'm amazed that we have carried on this long) you won't find any such concern or complaint, except for one comment by a very recent contributor. I think it is quite safe to say that the H10 has no such problem.

There are many variables at play that could give someone this impression. My point is that it is not something inherent to the H10.

I am that "recent contributor".  This is my first "Head-fi" system.  I do not have the experience or audio sophistication to point to a particular piece of equipment and say this is the culprit. I have done by best to describe what I have heard and the improvement as the equipment has burned in. 

  My X12 has been sold to a lucky sailor. I still think it is a worthy recommendation for anyone looking for a smooth and musical Sabre in that price range. I did not sell it because I wasn't happy with it but for other reasons.
Anyway, if there is one quibble that I want to mention, then it is imaging/layering. To my ears, the X12 could image and layer instruments/voices in a strange manner, putting them closer together than I'd like I am used to. As in the center instruments and leading vocals sound big and meaty but the backing vocals and further placed instruments could sound stacked or placed in a weird way. IMO. YMMV.
Only quibble, Otherwise an excellent, quite detailed DAC, especially considering the tonality.

Perhaps this contributor is partially describing what I have heard.  I know I have lost the enjoyment in several of my favorite songs.  Several of the oldest Beatles songs and particularly The Doors Light My Fire are unlistenable now.  With the Beatles songs the guitar and vocals are all on the far right while the drums are alone on the left.  There is nothing in the center making it sound like everybody's playing in two rooms far apart.  The same for the organ solo in Light My Fire.  I never experienced this phenomenon with my mini-system + ultrasone HFI-2400.
 
Again I would point out that I have stated my limitations including suspect source material and hearing loss.  I am just looking for answers and help!

 

[bavinck]

I am that "recent contributor".  This is my first "Head-fi" system.  I do not have the experience or audio sophistication to point to a particular piece of equipment and say this is the culprit. I have done by best to describe what I have heard and the improvement as the equipment has burned in. 


Perhaps this contributor is partially describing what I have heard.  I know I have lost the enjoyment in several of my favorite songs.  Several of the oldest Beatles songs and particularly The Doors Light My Fire are unlistenable now.  With the Beatles songs the guitar and vocals are all on the far right while the drums are alone on the left.  There is nothing in the center making it sound like everybody's playing in two rooms far apart.  The same for the organ solo in Light My Fire.  I never experienced this phenomenon with my mini-system + ultrasone HFI-2400.

Again I would point out that I have stated my limitations including suspect source material and hearing loss.  I am just looking for answers and help!

OK then, thanks for the clarification. What you describe about the Beatles and doors recording sound typically for older recording and has not (ime) to do with your amp or dac.

Thanks for all the help squashing this rumour. For complex music I am primarily refering to progressive and folk metal that can get extremely complex, much life classical music can. Sounds like the h10 will do me well.

 

[pippen99]

OK then, thanks for the clarification. What you describe about the Beatles and doors recording sound typically for older recording and has not (ime) to do with your amp or dac.

Thanks for all the help squashing this rumour. For complex music I am primarily refering to progressive and folk metal that can get extremely complex, much life classical music can. Sounds like the h10 will do me well.

I may have over clarified.  What I described is more an aside or in addition to what I have been trying to relate. (Sigh) The limitations of trying to portray sound via the printed word!
A simple arrangement such as folk, perhaps a piano and a guitar and vocals, or any four piece arrangement with vocals:  I can identify each instrument clearly.  There is separation so each instrument including vocal is clear, strong and vibrant. On the other hand the best description of what I hear is to use the example of Journey or ELO.  I seem to lose the bottom end and everything else is a large globular mass in the middle.  Nothing stands out, nothing is distinctive.  Everything seems to condense into mediocrity. 
 
Once again "limitations" whether they be my description, the equipment, or the source material.  I just don't know.

 

[auvgeek]

 
I am that "recent contributor".  This is my first "Head-fi" system.  I do not have the experience or audio sophistication to point to a particular piece of equipment and say this is the culprit. I have done by best to describe what I have heard and the improvement as the equipment has burned in. 

Perhaps this contributor is partially describing what I have heard.  I know I have lost the enjoyment in several of my favorite songs.  Several of the oldest Beatles songs and particularly The Doors Light My Fire are unlistenable now.  With the Beatles songs the guitar and vocals are all on the far right while the drums are alone on the left.  There is nothing in the center making it sound like everybody's playing in two rooms far apart.  The same for the organ solo in Light My Fire.  I never experienced this phenomenon with my mini-system + ultrasone HFI-2400.

That's the mastering. I just listened to The Doors "Light My Fire" on Tidal and Spotify. The drums are entirely on the left channel and the organ is entirely on the right. It's just the way it was recorded. Don't blame the equipment for reproducing the mastering accurately.

 

[pippen99]

  That's the mastering. I just listened to The Doors "Light My Fire" on Tidal and Spotify. The drums are entirely on the left channel and the organ is entirely on the right. It's just the way it was recorded. Don't blame the equipment for reproducing the mastering accurately.

please read the last line of the post immediately preceding yours.

 

[Liu Junyuan]

My X12 has been sold to a lucky sailor. I still think it is a worthy recommendation for anyone looking for a smooth and musical Sabre in that price range. I did not sell it because I wasn't happy with it but for other reasons.
Anyway, if there is one quibble that I want to mention, then it is imaging/layering. To my ears, the X12 could image and layer instruments/voices in a strange manner, putting them closer together than I'd like I am used to. As in the center instruments and leading vocals sound big and meaty but the backing vocals and further placed instruments could sound stacked or placed in a weird way. IMO. YMMV.
Only quibble, Otherwise an excellent, quite detailed DAC, especially considering the tonality.

Thank you. Quite honest analysis indeed. Unfortunately, despite your intent, that is an ultimately damning critique for my preferences as well, so I will stick with Gungnir.

 

[Liu Junyuan]

I never felt that imaging was unnatural or off in any way on the LCD-X's, HD800's or LCD-2F's when combined with the H10 + X12 stack.

It's difficult to gauge how something will sound from subjective impressions, but I'd like to add the opinion that I have no issues with the imaging/layering with the H10 + X12. It's also possible that I have not heard even BETTER DACs, but either way I do not feel the need to upgrade anymore.

As you said, YMMV .

@bavinck
what kind of music would you consider "complex"? I've never felt this way about the H10.

Thanks for your useful counterpoint .

 

[Liu Junyuan]

If you were to read through the entire 68 pages of this thread (I'm amazed that we have carried on this long) you won't find any such concern or complaint, except for one comment by a very recent contributor. I think it is quite safe to say that the H10 has no such problem.

There are many variables at play that could give someone this impression. My point is that it is not something inherent to the H10.

I have read through the thread entirely and am also suspicious of this claim, but I remain ultimately undecided at this point. I really wish I had access to another amp like Meier Audio Classic, Lake People G109, or V200, all of which I would bet could handle anything thrown at them with ease.

 

[olek]

Wow, this room is boiling with activity!
 
Here are my 2 cents.
 
This morning I found that H10 passes my 'happy feet' test - my feet try to dance under the table as I listen to music while browsing. It also started to pass my 'distraction test' - from time to time I just can't go on reading and have to close my eyes and listen. Both are really good thing. The thing about me, is that my conscious ability to analyze sound is not so great (and bad hearing damage does not help either), but subconscious sound 'parsing' is pretty good.
 
Also I feel that sound moved farther away from my head - an awkward way to say that soundstage has improved.
 
I also came to realization than H10's sound signature is slightly warm, with gentle (not rolled off!) treble, still very close to neutral, close enough to be beyond my ability to judge it. I also realized that all that extra 'liquid' smoothness I hear from Precision 1 is likely kind of colouration, audio-gd's house sound, just lush enough to make a difference. At this point I like them both, with H10 winning on detail, and Precision 1 having more 'pleasant', analog/tubey sound (while being a tiniest bit brighter).
 
I also agree with Liu that gain switches seem to tweak sound a little bit. It is fairly small difference, but on -12 sound becomes 'lighter' and more relaxed, and on +12 it gets more 'weighty' and aggressive. At least that is the way it seems to my (very imprecise) ears.
 
All in all, it sounds quite nice to me now! And if one can expect more improvement after 200-300 hours of burn in - even better!

 

[Liu Junyuan]

I am that "recent contributor".  This is my first "Head-fi" system.  I do not have the experience or audio sophistication to point to a particular piece of equipment and say this is the culprit. I have done by best to describe what I have heard and the improvement as the equipment has burned in. 


Perhaps this contributor is partially describing what I have heard.  I know I have lost the enjoyment in several of my favorite songs.  Several of the oldest Beatles songs and particularly The Doors Light My Fire are unlistenable now.  With the Beatles songs the guitar and vocals are all on the far right while the drums are alone on the left.  There is nothing in the center making it sound like everybody's playing in two rooms far apart.  The same for the organ solo in Light My Fire.  I never experienced this phenomenon with my mini-system + ultrasone HFI-2400.

Again I would point out that I have stated my limitations including suspect source material and hearing loss.  I am just looking for answers and help!

I know that you qualified your limited experience, but a claim like this is going to scare everyone off (which is absolutely fine, if it is indeed truly attributable to the gear).

Could you by chance share with me which recording/mastering you are listening to and a specific Beatles song so that I can try to help determine whether this is true? I will be able to isolate amps to at least see if this is a property inherent to the H10 ( I do not own the X12).

Also, would it be possible for you at some point to use your other system to see whether you are in fact hearing this from the amp or DAC? What is your other system by the way？

Thanks. I am just trying to help out because no one in their right mind would be able to ignore your sudden lack of enjoyment in these famous songs.

 

[Arnotts]

 
please read the last line of the post immediately preceding yours.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/422657/the-beatles-mono-vs-stereo <--- read David Mahler's post
 
The sound you hear is just poorly mixed/mastered stereo, from a time when mono was preferred.

 

[conquerator2]

I want to clarify my post a bit - it is only my subjective experience so do not take it for granted or inherent to the DAC. It is the single aspect that I could criticize...
I think for the money overall this DAC is an easy bargain. I think it did many things better than my Gungnir and NFB7.
It was also an impulsive sale that was supposed to fund something... Did not work out unfortunately. So I am on a lookout for a DAC again.
Otherwise, I was thinking about keeping the X12 for a very long time... Could have happily lived with it

 

[bavinck]

I want to clarify my post a bit - it is only my subjective experience so do not take it for granted or inherent to the DAC. It is the single aspect that I could criticize...
I think for the money overall this DAC is an easy bargain. I think it did many things better than my Gungnir and NFB7.
It was also an impulsive sale that was supposed to fund something... Did not work out unfortunately. So I am on a lookout for a DAC again.
Otherwise, I was thinking about keeping the X12 for a very long time... Could have happily lived with it

Thanks for this. I am seriously considering getting the x12. X12 is kind of the most money I would want to out into a dac right now.

 

[stuartmc]

I have read through the thread entirely and am also suspicious of this claim, but I remain ultimately undecided at this point. I really wish I had access to another amp like Meier Audio Classic, Lake People G109, or V200, all of which I would bet could handle anything thrown at them with ease.

One of our original Gustard swabbies, Flysweep, had the Violectric V200 and in his opinion, the H10 was the superior amplifier.  I have many amps in my listening room, accumulated from many years of reviewing and am very well acquainted with the idiosyncrasies of amplifiers of nearly every conceivable topology.  These are all loudspeaker amplifiers, so how this experience correlates to headphone amplifiers is certainly debatable, but playing the same music on my big rig and then on my headphone system (Rega Apollo R > X12 >H10 > HE-560) reveals no weakness in the latter system's ability to sort out complex passages.  In fact, I am rather shocked by how well this affordable headphone rig performs. So much so, that I have rejoined my old publication and am now devoting all of my attention to headphone gear.  By the way, the only other dedicated headphone amplifier I had on hand to compare to was the Ifi Ican.  That amplifier is fairly well regarded around here and the H10 bested it in nearly every parameter I can think of. It wasn't even close.

It sure is difficult to make a purchase decision without having the product in your hands and the benefit of an extended listening session.  I had to do that with the H10, but I trusted the opinions of Flysweep  and others here who had more experience with headphone gear than I did.  We all have different tastes and reviews are highly subjective, so I actually looked up some of Flysweep's commentaries/reviews of gear that I was familiar with and determined that he heard things quite similar to the way I do.   That gave me confidence to pull the trigger on the H10 and I am very glad that I did. I wish you well in your search and we are a friendly bunch including chaps like Mike (zilchOmd) who hasn't purchased any Gustard gear (yet, lol).

 

[pippen99]

 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/422657/the-beatles-mono-vs-stereo <--- read David Mahler's post
 
The sound you hear is just poorly mixed/mastered stereo, from a time when mono was preferred.

I believe you are correct in this assessment.  Good post by David Mahler.  However this means I have to wax philosophical for a moment.  In participating in this thread and reading other threads on Head-fi I have the impression that many participants regard the equipment as an end in itself.  Very many of you own multiple pieces of equipment, sell and trade on a regular basis comparing and looking for different performance and sound. 
 
I come to this hobby from an apparently different perspective(not being judgemental  just different).  Headphones have been my first choice for listening for 40 years and now having the time(retirement in a few months) and the money( pretty much set up for retirement) I wanted to upgrade my listening experience.  For me the equipment is a means to an end.  The end being to listen to the music I grew up with, saw performed live( over 400 concerts attended) and prefer to this day reproduced as well as it can be.  I will probably never have more than 2 similar pieces of equipment on hand at the same time and the unit being replaced will be for sale.
 
My participation on this thread has not to bash this equipment but to determine if what I am hearing is equipment related, source related, or between my ears related.  I cannot and will not change my musical preferences so the equipment can shine.  The equipment has to make my music shine and if it cannot(as it has proven on several important tracks to me)then it is not for me. 
 
My greatest concern now is no number of equipment changes or money spent is capable of making the music I prefer better.