[x RELIC x]

I did.         (and I still have two  D-777 discmans which rarely get used but still sound great)




Absolutely.

I'm glad it won't be long before someone gets serious about storage capacity in DAPs (even if it turns out not to be Fiio).

I strongly expect one of the DAP manufacturers to permit some means of achieving 1tb before 2015 is over.

Happy days, and not a cassette in sight!

I guess you guys missed my point. The main point was that I agree it's now 2014 and we have progressed far, and pointed out that progress is inevitable and good. I just appreciate where we are at now and look forward to what's to come without stressing over it.

Cheers

 

[olddude]

I started with 78s and 45s, then we got 33 1/3s.  Didn't have a TV until I was ten.  Color TV?  In my twenties.  Didn't have a car radio until my later twenties, no FM stereo until I was nineteen.  So all of this stuff is fine with me.  But there is a reality here, and the "I want it all" thing can get to me.  Sure, streaming will be here full bore in a bit, and sure bigger storage will be here soon, but having everything on a home system is a bit different than on a portable.  Factor in size,weight, battery life and the rationality of 20,000 to 40,000 songs of lossy quality available on a portable and I wonder what the point is.
 
I have a few mp3s laying around on my computer and I just checked some.  They are averaging 2.5-3mb each.  My 16/44s are around 35mb, and my hi-res goes from 60-150mb per song.  I have two 64gb cards, with over 200 albums and neither card is near full.  So, figuring twelve or so songs per album, I have about 2400 songs.  At four minutes each that's 160 hours of music in CD or hi-res quality.  If I listen for four hours a day that's about forty days of music without repeating a song.  And my cards are less than 3/4s full.  
 
Having it all at your fingertips is seductive.  I get that.  I figure I could have about sixty days of music at four hours a day and never repeat a song.  In lossless and hi-res.  So how much is really enough?

 

[headwhacker]

  Mython, you make pretty convincing argument, talking about Hi-Res music and the objective need to have more storage space in a modern audio player.
 
However, I do not feel the need to justify my music or other audio material choices, their size etc even before almighty FiiO.
 
Yes, Hi-Res music is very important, no one questions that.
 
But also, if, in addition to my music, I choose to keep and to listen to my teaching courses and audiobooks in the same audiophile player, it does not make me any less audiophile, or that other audio material any less important.
 
Bottom line: the adequate storage space in a portable audio player is not a luxury, not an impossible dream - just a practical need.
 
And, when it comes to practical needs, people usually get what they want, on one way or the other.

 
You sound to be so sure about what you think and deem other people who think's otherwise as imposing their will. But fail to realize you are doing the same in return. You are already talking about swapping msata storage even It has not existed yet on any DAPs. Like I said, you are not virtually limited in space with existing DAPs. Maybe convenience.
 
If you care about music much you should read more about hi res and don't assume no one questions hi-res files these days.
 
It's a different topic but there are a lot of people will argue with you that you don't need more than 16/44. 
 
I have no interest against putting in huge storage but when you design with a fixed price point in mind, you can't just put the best parts in and call it a day. Ask James, about it. I'm pretty sure they need to make a profit with any product they put out there.
 
Practical needs? Yeah listen to yourself Not everyone share the same need as yours.

 

[Dobrescu George]

it is better to max out the potential, than to listen to the ones that do not need it. 
 
Say, i do not need streaming, and i am 100% sure i never will. but the thing is better to have it for those who use it. Same thing about storage. you don;t need it, but it is better to be here for those who need it.
 
what would be absolutley enough?... i have no ideea. From 3TB i must go to 5tb anyday soon, because 3TB are not enough for my data. Just for music?... i say, i cannot fill more than 1tb of music. not until 2020, with how much music comes each year.

 

[headwhacker]

  it is better to max out the potential, than to listen to the ones that do not need it. 
 
Say, i do not need streaming, and i am 100% sure i never will. but the thing is better to have it for those who use it. Same thing about storage. you don;t need it, but it is better to be here for those who need it.
 
what would be absolutley enough?... i have no ideea. From 3TB i must go to 5tb anyday soon, because 3TB are not enough for my data. Just for music?... i say, i cannot fill more than 1tb of music. not until 2020, with how much music comes each year.

 
How do you define the max potential? With unlimited cost and size maybe. Unfortunately not. Many people already find X5 huge. So you can't just slap all the potentially uber leet components in there and make everyone happy. Let's say you do manage to do that, I'm pretty sure something else will be sacrificed. Most likely battery life. Factor in the cost and the price would skyrocket. Sure for some cost is not important. But it will definitely make X7 just as impractical to others.
 
Maybe in a few years with further miniturization of electronics component, then you can pack as many storage option when there is space to spare. I believe cloud storage will actually make it irrelevant.
 
The way I see it storage is the least of a concern considering how packed X5's guts already is with the amp/DAC/SoC circuits. If you sacrifice any one of those it's difficult if not impossible to upgrade later (at least the amp section of X7 is interchangeable. But storage, I don't think so. it will not degrade the DAPs ability to play high quality music if you are to swap as many cards as you like. It's inconvenient, yes but in no way as important as the other components you guys seem willing to sacrifice.
 
Battery life is actually the better aspect of a DAP that needs improvement than slapping more built in storage. 
 
Look at these players, any one of these are already very good and would be difficult for X7 to beat.
 
HM901
All the AK line
DX100
 
All of them are huge, the common thing many people deem impractical for a portable device. Not to mention they are unreasonably expensive (except for DX100).
 
So if you are designing for a price point and a fix physical dimension. Let's put in msata first, then worry about the other components later, I say good luck hitting the other goals.

 

[waynes world]

 
don't jump on me from any camp, i just posted my thoughts. it is not about having or not the entire collection, but at this price, i pretty much would preffer the entire collection more than any streaming service. i cannot use streaming services for very obscure black metal, post hardcore, EDM music. i particulary enjoy some bands that are very very far from being alavaible on any streaming services. I totally understand that bands that are on streaming services resolve the need of storage for some people, but i mainly listen in flac and i cannot fiind what i love there. my actual collection has 500gb, and i don't have any hi res in there. only flac and mp3. 

 
For my dream dap, I want it all baby! Give me streaming capability AND lots of storage. Beautiful!
 
I've only recently gotten into streaming, and I'm loving it. But that doesn't mean that I'm suddenly going to want to stop listening to my music collection. Right now I have a measly 300GB of mostly mp3 files. I hate having to deal with limited capacity cards, or very expensive cards, and I hate spending time transferring files to said cards. If my dream dap had 1T or 2T of storage and I could put all of my music on it, that would be awesome. I would also then feel motivated to get more of my tunes in lossless format so that I could really enjoy the benefits of an awesome hi-res player like the X7.
 
Ymmv!

 

[Brooko]

Recent discussions have been interesting, and I do think it is necessary to remember that everyone has different preferences and Fiio can't implement them all - especially if they have a price point in mind.
 
My own preferences of most to least important would include:
 
SQ
Ease of use (GUI)
Battery life
Power
Price
Space (as long as I can get up to 256 gb I'm fine)
If possible I'd like bluetooth (for the car), but I know it's a "wish' rather than a need.
 
Now I know I'm just one person, but I thought I'd make a little comment on some of the recent discussions re space.
 
First - to those with extremely large collections.  It would be very interesting to know how many users with huge collections are young, and how many actually own their music (ie have paid for it). The common thing nowadays seems to be for torrenting and downloading, and (just IMO) one of the drawbacks with this is that there is very little investment in the music because of this.  I currently have close to 400 albums.  All paid for.  Because I'm not "made of money", I have to think carefully before making a purchase.  So I'll listen to the album (youtube etc) for days before I make a decision.  And that way I only get what I know I'll listen to.  Even then 400 albums is still getting up there - and there are many albums on my player I won't have heard for a month or more. I scratch my head when I read about some people's need to have 20K plus tracks.  I'd be willing to bet they have very little investment in the actual music.  I also tend to think that if they culled their collections to what they'd actually listen to we wouldn't have these debates
 
Secondly - the msata thing.  Don't get me wrong, if it could be implemented cheaply, I'd be a supporter.  I think 1 Tb is overkill personally - but if we could get 512 Mb, that would be pretty cool.  But to me it's a wish rather than a need (see above paragraph on mega collections).  My entire 400 albums is all redbook FLAC and fits on a 128 Gb and 64 Gb card on my X5 (with about 40 Gb spare).  I can see where people with high res and DSD collections might want more space - but even then, 256 Gb should be reasonably sufficient right now (ie 2 x 128 Gb cards).  My issue with those saying msata is a "must" is simply what it does to the cost.  Fiio stated a target of trying to get to a $699 cost.  Most people already have microSD cards, so there isn't an extra cost in getting those.  Going to msata might add a huge amount of storage - but it would also add around $250-350 to the cost depending on how much it costs to implement.  That pushes the price up to a grand or more.  That takes it off my radar, and I'd imagine it would do the same for a lot of others.
 
Personally I like where they are going with their post on page 1.  To me it looks like a great balance of everyone's "wants".  And if 256 gb microsd cards come out sometime next year - then users wanting the extra storage and prepared to pay for it also get their needs met.
 
Sound like the best of all worlds to me 

 

[headwhacker]

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Originally Posted by Brooko /img/forum/go_quote.gif
  Recent discussions have been interesting, and I do think it is necessary to remember that everyone has different preferences and Fiio can't implement them all - especially if they have a price point in mind.
 
My own preferences of most to least important would include:
 
SQ
Ease of use (GUI)
Battery life
Power
Price
Space (as long as I can get up to 256 gb I'm fine)
If possible I'd like bluetooth (for the car), but I know it's a "wish' rather than a need.
 
Now I know I'm just one person, but I thought I'd make a little comment on some of the recent discussions re space.
 
First - to those with extremely large collections.  It would be very interesting to know how many users with huge collections are young, and how many actually own their music (ie have paid for it). The common thing nowadays seems to be for torrenting and downloading, and (just IMO) one of the drawbacks with this is that there is very little investment in the music because of this.  I currently have close to 400 albums.  All paid for.  Because I'm not "made of money", I have to think carefully before making a purchase.  So I'll listen to the album (youtube etc) for days before I make a decision.  And that way I only get what I know I'll listen to.  Even then 400 albums is still getting up there - and there are many albums on my player I won't have heard for a month or more. I scratch my head when I read about some people's need to have 20K plus tracks.  I'd be willing to bet they have very little investment in the actual music.  I also tend to think that if they culled their collections to what they'd actually listen to we wouldn't have these debates
 
Secondly - the msata thing.  Don't get me wrong, if it could be implemented cheaply, I'd be a supporter.  I think 1 Tb is overkill personally - but if we could get 512 Mb, that would be pretty cool.  But to me it's a wish rather than a need (see above paragraph on mega collections).  My entire 400 albums is all redbook FLAC and fits on a 128 Gb and 64 Gb card on my X5 (with about 40 Gb spare).  I can see where people with high res and DSD collections might want more space - but even then, 256 Gb should be reasonably sufficient right now (ie 2 x 128 Gb cards).  My issue with those saying msata is a "must" is simply what it does to the cost.  Fiio stated a target of trying to get to a $699 cost.  Most people already have microSD cards, so there isn't an extra cost in getting those.  Going to msata might add a huge amount of storage - but it would also add around $250-350 to the cost depending on how much it costs to implement.  That pushes the price up to a grand or more.  That takes it off my radar, and I'd imagine it would do the same for a lot of others.
 
Personally I like where they are going with their post on page 1.  To me it looks like a great balance of everyone's "wants".  And if 256 gb microsd cards come out sometime next year - then users wanting the extra storage and prepared to pay for it also get their needs met.
 
Sound like the best of all worlds to me 

 
I pretty much agree with your list. Unless battery is replaceable, I'll rank power above it. In addition, of all the items in your list storage is the easiest to remedy in a final product. The rest are impossible or very difficult to fix. Also I would add Wifi. It will become a very important feature. It can extend storage and can be used to connect to wireless speakers. Making the device very versatile. I would rank it even above more storage space.

 

[Brooko]

Good news is that according to the initial post - both wifi and bluetooth are covered

 

[alnilam]

It seems to me that some of you guys confuse this fascinating 'X7, the Flagship DAP from FiiO' topic with some other, mostly irrelevant topics like 'the legality of file sharing' or 'how to be a good policeman' or 'my way is the right way' or 'shame on those non-paying torrenting bastards' etc.
 
Back to reality: X7 is just another audiophile player, with its strong and weak points, it may be a genuine improvement in some ways that matter, so as a result FiiO will increase their loyal base and profits (I for one sincerely hope they will succeed), or it may be more of the same, we will just wait and see.

 

[Mython]

FTR, I have well over 500 CDs (now ripped to flac), purchased throughout the 1990s, onwards, and although my Hi-Res collection is not (yet) as large as I'd like it to be, on the occasions when I purchase Hi-Res albums these days, I am conscious, every time, of the very large file size. I generally don't buy larger than 24/96, but sometimes a 24/192 will make it into my digital shopping cart and I think it would shock some people to realise the huge difference in filesize between 16/44.1 and 24/192 (or .DSD, though I generally avoid it). Lack of finances, this past couple of years, is the only thing that has stopped me amassing 3 or 4 hundred GB of additional Hi-Res music, and there is no reason to presume that my appetite for high quality music will abate in the years to come, so please don't presume that all of us with large music collections haven't paid for them. I won't deny that during my university days, in the late 90s, I did 'acquire' some 60s/70s/80s pop music, for nostalgic purposes, and it didn't cost me a dime. I'm not proud of it, but that was just crap-quality low bitrate mp3s and did not slow down my legitimate purchasing of CD albums one iota.
 
I understand why you said it, but it's very insulting to those of us who have enjoyed music for decades and have been / are willing to devote a larger proportion of our income to this hobby than the average man on the street, when a legitimate desire for high capacity DAP storage is rebutted with accusations that there must be some illegitimacy in the acquisition of such a large music collection. Some people think nothing of dropping a quarter of a million bucks on a hi-fi system; some people have stamp collections costing as much; some give away as much to charity each year, but whatever 'their thing' in life might be, it doesn't necessarily mean there is any illegitimacy involved. "Different strokes for different folks.", etc.
 
Respectfully, the request for optional high storage capacity in the X7 is a totally legitimate one, even if you don't personally feel the need for it.
 
It is also something which would help the X7 bring something new to the market that isn't already being offered by several other competing DAPs.
 
It may be a challenge to engineer it, within the many constraints, but Fiio could actually reap great success from doing so, so it's not a selfish user-request, either.
 
It remains to be seen if James and his team feel it might be a mountain worth climbing, but all parties may gain from it in the longrun, albeit some less than others.
 
I'm going to take a step back from the topic, now, and watch&wait to see what James'/Fiios response may be, to the past several pages of discussion. As I've already clearly stated, I will respect their decision, either way.

 

[Currawong]

A friendly reminder that the topic is the X7 DAP. 

 

[Brooko]

Reread my post Mython. I wasn't accusing, and I wasn't pointing fingers. I was merely making an observation, and if you read Skerry's post, it looks like I hit the nail on the head. Your collection (and age group) is probably similar to mine. I really do appreciate what you are saying regarding wanting extra space.

But consider the cost factor Fiio was planning first up. Now consider what msata would add.

I was just giving an opinion - just like you've been doing. I respect where you are coming from - perhaps you could do the same?

 

[KT66]

Imagine the amazing player that could be built if manufacturers didn't have to worry about memory size and battery size.

I don't need more than 4 hours, and the choice of 20 hi rez or 40 red book albums is enough, infact the narrower choice makes me listen to music I normally might avoid. This is good for my listening habit.
All I care about is sound quality, I feel I am in a tiny minority.

 

[Mython]

But consider the cost factor Fiio was planning first up. Now consider what msata would add.

 
Would adding an mSATA slot really make a huge difference to the price? I don't know.
 
I'm not an electronics engineer, but I would think the hurdles in adding mSATA support to the X7 would (broadly-speaking) tend to be more of a practical nature rather than cost-based.
 
To be clear - whether increased capacity were to be accomplished via an mSATA slot or via a soldered onboard memory chip, I 100% believe that the cost of any additional memory should not be 'imposed', involuntarily upon customers, but rather that those costs should be optional for each individual customer to buy or not buy - just as Cowon have often offered more than one flavour of a given model. I suppose that may marginally decrease production efficiency, but it needn't be a massive hit, and the compensation for Fiio could be a best-seller.
 
I'm all-ears, though, and I'm sure James will comment sometime in the coming days.
 
 

I was just giving an opinion - just like you've been doing. I respect where you are coming from - perhaps you could do the same?

 
I do respect that you don't feel the need for large storage capacity. I have no problem with that at all.
 
All I'm saying is that that does not need to conflict with others differing needs, and bringing into question the legitimacy of people's large music collections:
 

Originally Posted by Brooko /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I scratch my head when I read about some people's need to have 20K plus tracks.  I'd be willing to bet they have very little investment in the actual music.
 

 
...isn't an amicable or strictly relevant thing to bring into the discussion, even if you did, by sheer chance, happen to strike a nerve with one member amongst all the rest of us, on varying sides of the discussion.
 
It's not personal. I was responding to the insinuation rather than to who you are as a person.

 
FWIW, I agree with some of what you said. 512mb would be pretty cool. But 1TB would be more future-proof for those of us venturing beyond Redbook.
 

Originally Posted by Brooko /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Secondly - the msata thing.  Don't get me wrong, if it could be implemented cheaply, I'd be a supporter.  I think 1 Tb is overkill personally - but if we could get 512 Mb, that would be pretty cool.  But to me it's a wish rather than a need (see above paragraph on mega collections).

 
I feel 512mb is a legitimate 'need' for people who take Hi-Res seriously. Even 1TB can be filled with 24/192 without much difficulty at all, but I concede that I would be thankful and grateful for 512mb if 1TB was deemed to not be viable, on an engineering basis.
 
The enthusiasm from some (myself included) for 512mb-1TB is not only because of having ever-expanding lossless music collections, but also from the standpoint that there is little point in developing and marketing new DAPs if they do not appreciably offer more than there competing predecessors.
 
 

Originally Posted by Brooko /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
My issue with those saying msata is a "must" is simply what it does to the cost.

 
I hear what you're saying.
 
Either way, this factor remains to be seen, and we can move forwards from there.
 
 
 

  A friendly reminder that the topic is the X7 DAP. 

 
Yep; duly noted