[dallan]

Hey Jazz, fyi i did pose the question of double amping to the Chord techs at Canjam and they seemed to take it humorously and almost responded as it was a somewhat ridiculous question….. I said it had come up out here and their response was no it was not double amping when you take the rca to an external amp. I don't know but we had discussed it earlier so thought i'd put out Chords take on it in person.

 

[estreeter]

HUGO is great but compare with a proper headphones amp is not really achieve the sound quality should actually get with the same pair of headphones.

That's the only negative point.

 
After months of telling myself that, I shipped my Taurus off to a new owner earlier today. I admit that I preferred the HD800 from the Taurus but that wasnt sufficient reason to keep it - as with anything in this hobby there will always be those who feel differently but the Hugo's headphone out will have to meet my needs for now. There are worse fates  

 

[JaZZ]

  Hey Jazz, fyi i did pose the question of double amping to the Chord techs at Canjam and they seemed to take it humorously and almost responded as it was a somewhat ridiculous question….. I said it had come up out here and their response was no it was not double amping when you take the rca to an external amp. I don't know but we had discussed it earlier so thought i'd put out Chords take on it in person.

 
Maybe you asked the wrong question. It's not about double amping, it's about (unnecessary) additional amping. The signal from the line out is strong enough to drive almost every headphone, and the output impedance is as low as it gets. So what's there to be gained by adding an amplifier? It doesn't take an expert to realize that you can't make a signal more accurate than it already is, and it's a well-known fact (disputed just by very few) that every amp colors the sound, adds distortion of all kinds.
 
Also, the great Rob Watts himself agrees with me (by giving me a reputation for the post you're referring to). Here's one of his key statements (see particularly the last paragraphs).
 

  After months of telling myself that, I shipped my Taurus off to a new owner earlier today. I admit that I preferred the HD800 from the Taurus but that wasnt sufficient reason to keep it - as with anything in this hobby there will always be those who feel differently but the Hugo's headphone out will have to meet my needs for now. There are worse fates  

 
Honestly, I don't always prefer the Hugo's headphone out for my (modified) HD 800 – sometimes I find the detour via «double amping» through the Corda Symphony more fun. It doesn't happen too often, though, and when I do so, I'm aware of the colorations responsible for the fun. Actually it's a pity that only very few Head-Fiers are ready for questioning the maxim «more fun is better»; most seem to seriously think their setups are more true to the original signal no matter how much components they stack – or they don't care for the original signal anyway. The money they spent provides additional conformation. Just one hint: Oftentimes the added amplification stage may indeed have a positive effect (beside the negatives) in that the chain benefits from the coloration's change of sonic balance. If you want to get that without the downsides in the form of signal corruption, I recommend sensitive equalizing. Or modifications on the «source» of the coloration, like the ones on my HD 800.

 

[dallan]

   
Maybe you asked the wrong question. It's not about double amping, it's about (unnecessary) additional amping. The signal from the line out is strong enough to drive almost every headphone, and the output impedance is as low as it gets. So what's there to be gained by adding an amplifier? It doesn't take an expert to realize that you can't make a signal more accurate than it already is, and it's a well-known fact (disputed just by very few) that every amp colors the sound, adds distortion of all kinds.
 
Also, the great Rob Watts himself agrees with me (by giving me a reputation for the post you're referring to). Here's one of his key statements (see particularly the last paragraphs).
 
 
Honestly, I don't always prefer the Hugo's headphone out for my (modified) HD 800 – sometimes I find the detour via «double amping» through the Corda Symphony more fun. It doesn't happen too often, though, and when I do so, I'm aware of the colorations responsible for the fun. Actually it's a pity that only very few Head-Fiers are ready for questioning the maxim «more fun is better»; most seem to seriously think their setups are more true to the original signal no matter how much components they stack – or they don't care for the original signal anyway. The money they spent provides additional conformation. Just one hint: Oftentimes the added amplification stage may indeed have a positive effect (beside the negatives) in that the chain benefits from the coloration's change of sonic balance. If you want to get that without the downsides in the form of signal corruption, I recommend sensitive equalizing. Or modifications on the «source» of the coloration, like the ones on my HD 800.

Yeah, I'm good either way, just reporting back. I have heard the Symphony and would say it would add a degree of color to the 800s as does my Violectric v200. On the other hand i feel the advantage when I add my Eddie Current Zana Deux to the Hugo is immense. It is a very neutral and accurate amp and to my ears it drives the HD800 way better than the Hugo built in amp. So it's no contest to me. With many of my other phones though i just lazily do hook into the Chords amp and don't hit the tubes unnecessarily. 

 

[JaZZ]

Yeah, I'm good either way, just reporting back. I have heard the Symphony and would say it would add a degree of color to the 800s as does my Violectric v200. On the other hand i feel the advantage when I add my Eddie Current Zana Deux to the Hugo is immense. It is a very neutral and accurate amp and to my ears it drives the HD800 way better than the Hugo built in amp. So it's no contest to me. With many of my other phones though i just lazily do hook into the Chords amp and don't hit the tubes unnecessarily. 

 
I don't question your perception, maybe just the interpretation. What does it mean when you're saying «it drives the HD 800 way better»? From my own perspective I would say the HD 800 sounds best with a full sounding (= coloring) amp, as it's by nature a bit bright, lean and treble-friendly (hence coloring), as good as it is – therefore my modification, which is essential to me. If the Zana Deux is such an amp, it may indeed create a better listening experience than strictly neutral electronics (if there's such a thing). Just speculation, though.

 

[dallan]

   
I don't question your perception, maybe just the interpretation. What does it mean when you're saying «it drives the HD 800 way better»? From my own perspective I would say the HD 800 sounds best with a full sounding (= coloring) amp, as it's by nature a bit bright, lean and treble-friendly (hence coloring), as good as it is – therefore my modification, which is essential to me. If the Zana Deux is such an amp, it may indeed create a better listening experience than strictly neutral electronics (if there's such a thing). Just speculation, though.

The V200 is warm and kind of takes the edge off the HD800 if that is what you are referring to. The Zana Deux is more dynamic with a totally black noise floor, just brings the HD800 to another level. It does not warm them, just more detail and ummph probably due to the favorable impedance match. You may not like the combo because it doesn't warm it at all, and actually gets the wax out while keeping the bass real, not smeared. It doesn't emphasis the treble either though like many do in that scenario. Hope you get to hear your 800s with it at one point.

 

[PayToPlay]

I currently use a pair of UE8 with iPhone 6 + Fiio E12. And thinking of upgrading to AK120 + Hugo. Is it worth it and how much of a difference will i notice?

 

[Dobrescu George]

I currently use a pair of UE8 with iPhone 6 + Fiio E12. And thinking of upgrading to AK120 + Hugo. Is it worth it and how much of a difference will i notice?

you do not need ak120 if you are going to buy hugo, it will only act as a transport, and it would probably be a waste if used as a stack. This is because there are a little cheaper options, for transport.
 
I do not exactly know what exactly can be the source of files for hugo, but for 400$ you can get fiio x5, which has a coax out, which works with hugo, and has 2Xmicrosd cards. i consider it a better transport.
 
depending on what you listen, how loud, you might hear big differences with hugo, but i would never buy such an expensive product, without listening first. I considered it the best thing in the world, but i would really sugest you to test before.

 

[JaZZ]

  The V200 is warm and kind of takes the edge off the HD800 if that is what you are referring to. The Zana Deux is more dynamic with a totally black noise floor, just brings the HD800 to another level. It does not warm them, just more detail and ummph probably due to the favorable impedance match. You may not like the combo because it doesn't warm it at all, and actually gets the wax out while keeping the bass real, not smeared. It doesn't emphasis the treble either though like many do in that scenario. Hope you get to hear your 800s with it at one point.

 
I would like to; sadly my friend Kurt who had a Black Rose (which I never got the opportunity to audition) isn't anymore. Nevertheless – in theory – if you compare the signal from the Hugo's line out (= headphone out) with the signal from the Zana Deux, you can hear what the latter adds to and subtracts from the signal. In practice it may be a bit less simple, particularly if we're talking about balanced drive. But still it's impossible that the amp can make the original signal more accurate. If it were able to have better control over the membrane movement, the over-all signal accuracy could indeed benefit, but by definition an amp can't control the membrane movement without motional feedback (you remember Philips active speakers?), at best it can have a higher damping factor than a contender – but since the Hugo's is so high already...
 
I'm not an electronics expert and would like to get some more answers to my inner questions, but there's no unanimity even among the experts when it comes to audio electronics. What I believe, though, is that the HD 800 is an easy to drive headphone (high impedance, high efficiency, no particularly uneven impedance and phase response), it's kind of a myth spread on Head-Fi. On the other hand it's a fact that it has a treble emphasis which benefits from matching electronics. Or corresponding modifications at the source, which moreover come with improved transient response – translating to perceivedly better dynamics.

 

[PayToPlay]

you do not need ak120 if you are going to buy hugo, it will only act as a transport, and it would probably be a waste if used as a stack. This is because there are a little cheaper options, for transport.

I do not exactly know what exactly can be the source of files for hugo, but for 400$ you can get fiio x5, which has a coax out, which works with hugo, and has 2Xmicrosd cards. i consider it a better transport.

depending on what you listen, how loud, you might hear big differences with hugo, but i would never buy such an expensive product, without listening first. I considered it the best thing in the world, but i would really sugest you to test before.

The thing is that I want to have an ultra portable setup with iem and the AK120 for when i cant carry the Hugo. So the transport wont bring any difference when using Hugo?

 

[dallan]

   
 
 What I believe, though, is that the HD 800 is an easy to drive headphone (high impedance, high efficiency, no particularly uneven impedance and phase response), it's kind of a myth spread on Head-Fi. On the other hand it's a fact that it has a treble emphasis which benefits from matching electronics. Or corresponding modifications at the source, which moreover come with improved transient response – translating to perceivedly better dynamics.

I guess this is where we differ. On the original HD800 thread as well as subsequent threads the discussions are about how hard of a headphone it is to drive "correctly". I don't know what correctly means but the point was it is a hard phone to drive and the hardest until the on slot of planer technology. It is also high impedance. So i guess my point is that it doesn't matter how loud you can make it with the Hugo that doesn't mean that the amp can drive the HD800's to their potential. So this is probably our disagreement. I don't believe the amp is capable (even though it is very good) to drive the HD800 to it's potential. As far as how clean the signal is, i agree that you would get a cleaner signal directly from the unit, which is why i drive easier driven headphones directly from the Hugo. So in some ways we are in agreement and other we are not, all is good though, about what you like.

 

[JaZZ]

  I guess this is where we differ. On the original HD800 thread as well as subsequent threads the discussions are about how hard of a headphone it is to drive "correctly". I don't know what correctly means but the point was it is a hard phone to drive and the hardest until the on slot of planer technology. It is also high impedance. So i guess my point is that it doesn't matter how loud you can make it with the Hugo that doesn't mean that the amp can drive the HD800's to their potential. So this is probably our disagreement. I don't believe the amp is capable (even though it is very good) to drive the HD800 to it's potential. As far as how clean the signal is, i agree that you would get a cleaner signal directly from the unit, which is why i drive easier driven headphones directly from the Hugo. So in some ways we are in agreement and other we are not, all is good though, about what you like.

 
Yes, that's where we differ, and so be it. BTW, the myth of the hard to drive HD 800 is not based on technical data, but the difficulty to find synergetic electronics components.

 

[AnakChan]

  you do not need ak120 if you are going to buy hugo, it will only act as a transport, and it would probably be a waste if used as a stack. This is because there are a little cheaper options, for transport.
 
I do not exactly know what exactly can be the source of files for hugo, but for 400$ you can get fiio x5, which has a coax out, which works with hugo, and has 2Xmicrosd cards. i consider it a better transport.
 
depending on what you listen, how loud, you might hear big differences with hugo, but i would never buy such an expensive product, without listening first. I considered it the best thing in the world, but i would really sugest you to test before.

 
Hmmm...I actually thought the AK120, especially the Titan with the internal storage in addition to 2x microSD would be an advantage (and the AK120 Titan has 128gb internal therefore totalling to 528gb). And I believe @rudi0504 has an AK120 mod with a coax out so coax out of an AK120 is possible? I know, it's quite a bit to do just for a transport with additional 128gb over the X5.

 

[dallan]

   
Yes, that's where we differ, and so be it. BTW, the myth of the hard to drive HD 800 is not based on technical data, but the difficulty to find synergetic electronics components.

Well obviously in my opinion it is not a myth that they are hard to drive, it is the reality. In my world the myth would be that they need to be modified to sound good when they are actually just being under driven, or that you would need to add other equipment to color the sound. But of course in reality this is a debate for another thread.

 

[Currawong]

What I found with amps is that some that I tried weren't as highly-resolving as the Hugo. That left me with using it with only TOTL amps if I wasn't to end up sacrificing resolution for dynamics.