[Radio_head]

If someone wants value proposition, they should make like Sir Robin and run away from this hobby as fast as their imaginary horse can take them.  If someone wants good or great, there are a lot of options, many of them allowing organs to remain where they are.  If someone wants the best, there are much fewer, and it will often cost them.  The "Grail" is nothing new in audiophilia or many other hobbies for that matter.  Relativism is all relative.  Personally I find a lot of speaker amp prices patently ridiculous.  3-5X seems to be industry standard for the sane who also like to eat, with 2X being a bargain (EC somehow seems to be able to do it for less, and people wonder why Craig is so skinny).  But something being a better deal doesn't make it better, it just makes the wallet-conscious wake up in a cold sweat less often.  Having heard all the amps in question extensively, I'd have to say the LAu sounds more seductive and engaging with a wider variety of headphones than any other solid state amp on the market.  Does it make it worth the price difference? Every time someone asks me this question an angel loses its wings to some insomniac gamer drinking redbull. 
 
As for product cycles, my understanding (Alex has a long post about it) the first generation (LF1 LL1) was designed to please Alex and his own design goals - seamless chassis, light weight, sports car knobs, no visible screws, etc.  The new generation is him giving in to feedback that amps need to be heavy, have thick beveled faceplates larger than the chassis, and be blacker/more subtle like all the heavy power amps in Stereophile ads. As customers, we're worried about what we lose on resale, but I don't think that consideration should prevent a manufacturer from putting out product that will satisfy their customers the most at any given time (although this is a source of disagreement among manufacturers.  Some will only change things customers won't see as earlier customers would complain otherwise.)  

 

[citraian]

Have you heard a good dac/amp beyond a sound card? 

Sorry, the HA-160 hardly counts as a good comparative example with a whopping 200mW and horrible performance.

As I said, I own a Burson Conductor and I also listened to more expensive dacs (such as Chord QBD) and amps (such as Bakoon). I'm not saying that Essence One is the best of the best but at that price it is a viable option according to my ears and to many reviewers. So... no, I'm not high

 

[Solude]

Read the Muse reviews again.  This time looking between the lines.
 
On the Cav front... am I the only one who finds it a little silly that we say the things are over priced by thousands and then the defence talks about casing?  The LF looked terrible, sure, but it also sounded terrible in context of a $3200 amp.  Sound wise, with tube upgrade, I put it in the $750-$1000 range.  Better than some amps on the lower end of that, worse than ones nearing the $1000 mark.
 
Could the LAu be great?  Maybe, but $6500?  No.  World class solid state balanced amps fall in the $2500-$3000 range.  And there aren't enough impartial LAu opinions to even place it in the great, let alone world class level.

 

[DarthUnnamed]

Hmm...maybe.
 
Any other options? Schiit seems to be out (at least the mjolnir + bifrost) of the list of options for me, dacmini is still possible, maybe Burson conductor 7193?

 

[citraian]

Quote:

Hmm...maybe.
 
Any other options? Schiit seems to be out (at least the mjolnir + bifrost) of the list of options for me, dacmini is still possible, maybe Burson conductor 7193?

Burson Conductor SL1793 is a great choice, way better than dacmini if you ask me.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

If someone wants value proposition, they should make like Sir Robin and run away from this hobby as fast as their imaginary horse can take them.  If someone wants good or great, there are a lot of options, many of them allowing organs to remain where they are.  If someone wants the best, there are much fewer, and it will often cost them.  The "Grail" is nothing new in audiophilia or many other hobbies for that matter.  Relativism is all relative.  Personally I find a lot of speaker amp prices patently ridiculous.  3-5X seems to be industry standard for the sane who also like to eat, with 2X being a bargain (EC somehow seems to be able to do it for less, and people wonder why Craig is so skinny).  But something being a better deal doesn't make it better, it just makes the wallet-conscious wake up in a cold sweat less often.  Having heard all the amps in question extensively, I'd have to say the LAu sounds more seductive and engaging with a wider variety of headphones than any other solid state amp on the market.  Does it make it worth the price difference? Every time someone asks me this question an angel loses its wings to some insomniac gamer drinking redbull. 
 
As for product cycles, my understanding (Alex has a long post about it) the first generation (LF1 LL1) was designed to please Alex and his own design goals - seamless chassis, light weight, sports car knobs, no visible screws, etc.  The new generation is him giving in to feedback that amps need to be heavy, have thick beveled faceplates larger than the chassis, and be blacker/more subtle like all the heavy power amps in Stereophile ads. As customers, we're worried about what we lose on resale, but I don't think that consideration should prevent a manufacturer from putting out product that will satisfy their customers the most at any given time (although this is a source of disagreement among manufacturers.  Some will only change things customers won't see as earlier customers would complain otherwise.)  

 
"Value" is defined by the customer. Always has and always will. It is based on what they're willing to pay for and my comments stand based on my experiences as a customer. With regards to product life cycles, sorry, no amount of hand waving/explanations can change the facts. Based on history (and that's all we have to go on) is a new product version is released every year and I for one will not be part of that. 

 The manufacturer can release what they want as often as they want, but the buyer can choose to not ride the roller coaster either. 
 
Quote:

As I said, I own a Burson Conductor and I also listened to more expensive dacs (such as Chord QBD) and amps (such as Bakoon). I'm not saying that Essence One is the best of the best but at that price it is a viable option according to my ears and to many reviewers. So... no, I'm not high

FWIW, I never did say that you were high. 

 

[Radio_head]

Quote:

On the Cav front... am I the only one who finds it a little silly that we say the things are over priced by thousands and then the defence talks about casing?  The LF looked terrible, sure, but it also sounded terrible in context of a $3200 amp.  Sound wise, with tube upgrade, I put it in the $750-$1000 range.  Better than some amps on the lower end of that, worse than ones nearing the $1000 mark.
 
Could the LAu be great?  Maybe, but $6500?  No.  World class solid state balanced amps fall in the $2500-$3000 range.  And there aren't enough impartial LAu opinions to even place it in the great, let alone world class level.

I was specifically responding to a since-edited post which brought up product cycles/looks/resale and responded in kind.  I don't think of dialogue in attack/defense terms, but if that is how one sees forums then I suppose my "defense" was parrying a specific thrust. 
 
The LAu has started making the rounds, loaner tours, LA/New York meets, and the first couple units should have shipped by now, so shouldn't be long for more people's disjointed ramblings impressions to get out there.  Those I know who have heard it who have experience with high end gear have been similarly impressed.  Then again, not many are ponying up that amount on dynamic amps these days when electrostatica is all the rage.  Having bought an Analog DAC and R10 in the few couple months and owning way too many amps, can't exactly justify it myself.  
 
I can't think of any commercial amp in the $750-1000 range I'd rather have than an LF.  The S7 is closest I can think of at $1600, but it punches way past its class and looks terrible to boot.

 

[citraian]

Quote:

 
"Value" is defined by the customer. Always has and always will. It is based on what they're willing to pay for and my comments stand based on my experiences as a customer. With regards to product life cycles, sorry, no amount of hand waving/explanations can change the facts. Based on history (and that's all we have to go on) is a new product version is released every year and I for one will not be part of that. 

 The manufacturer can release what they want as often as they want, but the buyer can choose to not ride the roller coaster either. 
 
FWIW, I never did say that you were high. 

Solude said that 

 

[Radio_head]

Quote:

 
"Value" is defined by the customer. Always has and always will. It is based on what they're willing to pay for and my comments stand based on my experiences as a customer. With regards to product life cycles, sorry, no amount of hand waving/explanations can change the facts. Based on history (and that's all we have to go on) is a new product version is released every year and I for one will not be part of that. 

 The manufacturer can release what they want as often as they want, but the buyer can choose to not ride the roller coaster either. 
 

Yes, I suppose it is defined by the customer, or at least those who have heard it.  People looking at photos online and pontificating, maybe less so.  At least if sound quality is the ultimate determinate like Solude is talking about.
 
I like Harry Turtledove as much as the next guy but alternative history can be confusing in real life.  The Liquid fire (the amp we've been talking about) was introduced at Canjam 2010 and has been available commercially for 2 years.  A new version has not yet come out though it has been announced.  Actually, not sure what's up with that as it's development page has been taken down from the website - maybe the portable will be released first, making MKII timetable anybody's guess.  There have been multiple runs of the same amp but that doesn't count.  The LL fits better.  The preprod went out for loaners in late 2011 but wasn't available until June/July 2012 so that's more like a year life cycle.  However, the changes in the LL were far less drastic on the internals side.  I don't think Alex will be like an Apple with planned obsolescence making every amp "so last year," but I suppose we'll have to wait and see.  One cycle of one product in a line does not a pattern make.

 

[Gary in MD]

Quote:

Burson Conductor SL1793 is a great choice, way better than dacmini if you ask me.

But it's not under $1k. 
 
And I just demo'ed the top Conductor model from the Cable Co library (it costs nearly $2K) and while I thought it was better sounding than the MJ, it was still not to my liking.   My take was that the amp section basically put you in the back row of the theater, and was not very involving.  Definitely not my choice for rock, pop, etc.  Fine if you listen mostly to small jazz groups or classical and basically just want it to play background music for you.  I also felt that the DAC was too aggressive and not very accurate in its sound, seemingly to compensate for the weaknesses in the amp, but the two elements just didn't mesh well for me.  Those last two words are important.  I understand that others really like the Burson, and I think it does have some strengths for some types of music.  But if folks want an amp/DAC for rock, they probably won't prefer the Conductor.

 

[citraian]

But it's not under $1k. 

And I just demo'ed the top Conductor model from the Cable Co library (it costs nearly $2K) and while I thought it was better sounding than the MJ, it was still not to my liking.   My take was that the amp section basically put you in the back row of the theater, and was not very involving.  Definitely not my choice for rock, pop, etc.  Fine if you listen mostly to small jazz groups or classical and basically just want it to play background music for you.  I also felt that the DAC was too aggressive and not very accurate in its sound, seemingly to compensate for the weaknesses in the amp, but the two elements just didn't mesh well for me.  Those last two words are important.  I understand that others really like the Burson, and I think it does have some strengths for some types of music.  But if folks want an amp/DAC for rock, they probably won't prefer the Conductor.

Yeah, it's over 1000$ but he's the one that mentioned it...
I know a lot of guys that love rock with the Conductor. This as always comes to different tastes. Also, the Conductors needs a lot of hours to begin to sound right...

 

[Gary in MD]

Quote:

The Conductors needs a lot of hours to begin to sound right...

 
This was the Cable Co's demo from their library.  It likely had lots of hours on it, though I have no way to know how many.  And I was comparing it to amps that were brand new... but it still couldn't compete, in my view.

 

[Solude]

You won't like the GS mk1 series much either then.

 

[sachu]

Quote:

You won't like the GS mk1 series much either then.

Edit: A dynalo with a better PSU...
 
do we have any inside pics of the GS-X-mk2? Any measurements on it?

 

[thegrobe]

Edit: A dynalo with a better PSU...

do we have any inside pics of the GS-X-mk2? Any measurements on it?

There are pictures on the product page:

http://www.headamp.com/home_amps/gsx/index.htm

Measurements? Dunno