rusitnpiece wrote:
 
What makes people think Sennheiser would release a pair of top grade headphones with a cable not capable of transferring a full frequency range? 
 
Above and beyond "full frequency range," that's easy, for the same reason auto manufactures don't release their vehicles with the best products available on each model made; costs vs sales.
 
The day someone passes a properly conducted blind test i will eat my words.
 
You anti-cable guys seem to keep thinking that what we do has to do with what you think when it doesn't.  All that counts is what us cable guys think about our sound quality.  I had a goal in mind and set out to achieve this goal.  The goal, quality sound of music.  I achieved this goal by replacing the sound card, replacing the computer power supply, buying and burning in a set of HD-650's and adding a set of custom headphone cables.  And for my effort and expense, success!  Notice that nowhere in my above, do I show concern with your diet?
 

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melomaniac said:

come one tuners! what makes people think Lennar would build a luxury condo without getting the right color combination on the walls. come on decorators!

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That's the only one that's a valid analogy.  Some of those cables certainly do look good.

 
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melomaniac said:

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oh yeah, sure. what makes people think BMW would release an expensive car without getting the most horse power out of it. come one tuners! what makes people think Lennar would build a luxury condo without getting the right color combination on the walls. come on decorators! that's why there is no marketing niche, no differentiation, no aftermarket. everything comes out of corporate R&D as perfect as venus out of the foam of the surf.
 

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of course headphones and cars are a great comparison! Think again.... You can scientifically measure the improvement made via car performance upgrades to the point where nobody can deny the improvement. Cables on the other hand have been tested over and over and over again with no huge scientific differences within an audible spectrum and there's always a split between believers and non-believer.
 
If a few performance upgrades on a car add several bhp then nobody can dispute the fact there is an improvement. Nothing can be similarly said with cables.

I have been a long time user of the Sennheiser HD650 and the first thing I did was upgrade to the Cardas Headphone cable.  One thing I have to say is before the original burn-in phase, the sound signature was very pleasing and the subtle overtones were further brought out hence it was well worth the money.
 
As for the comment cables are cables are not quite true.  Electrons pass over and through depending the amount of current, power, and voltage.  Amperage is current.  Silver has a little higher impedance than with copper so the overall effect can be to the negative or positive side.  It is the arrangement of the cable that determines the overall sound phase (based on many cable I have used over the years with the Sennheiser HD650 before completely settling on the Cardas Audio upgrade).  The pureness of the copper is another determining factor in the overall transmission of the audio signal to the headphone.  Different arranging patterns (copper conductor arrangement I.E. Litz) can improve some details and take away some sonic features of a headphone. 
 
Not much of a psychological thing but I had the opportunity to use the Moon Audio Silver Dragon with my HD650 and compare with both the stock and Cardas Audio Upgrade.  Since I was borrowing the cable, I couldn't keep it if I liked it so here is what happened. 
 
Using the standard stock HD650 cable, the sound is somewhat muted in details as though a heavy cotton or closed cell foam is used within the headphone.  It sounds as though there is slight attenuation of treble frequencies while the silky smooth mid-range slightly muffled while the bass frequencies are heavy throughout (this is after the aforementioned 300-hour break-in performed).  This is the veil that many talk about with this headphone. 
 
Upgrading to the Cardas Audio headphone cable: The veil as it were is removed and many of the subtle details in the mid-range are revealed while treble is clearer without sounding harsh.  As a listener it feels as though sitting from the back row to sixth row center stage listening to the orchestra or sound-stage.  Many sonic qualities that define the HD650 reference status is true to the heart assisted by the headphone cable.  The stock cable is fairly good however the Cardas upgrade is better. 
 
Going to the Silver Dragon: the Silver Dragon from Moon Audio is what the title shows is a Silver conductor headphone cable.  The bass is a leaner, but very tight and present, which for me is a welcoming feel since I find the Sennheiser HD650 a bit heavy on the bass side.  The silky mid-range and treble transition is further defined with a much clearer definition to the treble.  Another welcoming feeling is the fact the warmth is still present while feeling as though the cotton balls and earwax is taken out of my ears.  Sound stage is wider and deeper with this headphone as opposed to the Cardas cable's width and the sonic over tones are even more so defined with the Silver Dragon.  The arrangement in the way the conductors are during the building of the cable determines some of the factors of what I am saying.
 
Sadly though as of recent I sold the Sennheiser HD650 with everything that I have done to it.  A perfect cable with both the stock and Cardas Cable including for the great price of 300 plus shipping.  I regret this decision to the heart, however I can't stand that for a near $500 headphone the headband to be primarily made of plastic.  AKG uses steel alloy with an adjustable leather band, Beyerdynamic uses spring steel and aluminum alloy arms, and Ultrasone Edition 9 that I own especially uses metal with a leather band for comfort construction in their headbands.  Yet the Sennheiser HD650 uses plastic.  The only metal found on the HD650 is the support arms and grills while the HD800 does use metal only sandwiched between plastic layers.  Aside from this gripe, I love the HD650 in every way and I hate to see it go.  I did find a home for it and to replace this lovely headphone is the Beyerdynamic DT990 600-ohm version. 
 
The Germans have different names for the 32, 250, and 600-ohm version of the DT880/990 series.  32-ohms is the Consumer Version.  250-ohms = Professional Edition.  600-ohm = Reference Audiophile Edition.  Those Germans are something.
 
Everybody have a great week and weekend.

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Originally Posted by rusitnpiece /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
of course headphones and cars are a great comparison! Think again.... You can scientifically measure the improvement made via car performance upgrades to the point where nobody can deny the improvement. Cables on the other hand have been tested over and over and over again with no huge scientific differences within an audible spectrum and there's always a split between believers and non-believer.
 
If a few performance upgrades on a car add several bhp then nobody can dispute the fact there is an improvement. Nothing can be similarly said with cables.

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okay, not cars then. I'll stick to audio gadgets for my parody of your statement:  "can you get better sound than an iPod? of course, not, why would apple, a leading gadget pusher, be able to sell something that does not give you the best sound." - my point is, your trust in mass products is naive. cables are as much part of a headphone as tires and suspension adjustments and chips and headers are for cars. tweak the parts, change the results. you may not believe in improvements - many people do however.

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yklee118 said:

Upgrading to the Cardas Audio headphone cable: The veil as it were is removed and many of the subtle details in the mid-range are revealed while treble is clearer without sounding harsh.
 
Going to the Silver Dragon: the Silver Dragon from Moon Audio is what the title shows is a Silver conductor headphone cable.  The bass is a leaner, but very tight and present

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yes, you'll hear a difference with those two. I have compared a stock DT880 (250) with a Cardas recabled one, and kept the latter. I also compared a stock DT880 (600) with a Silver Dragon recabled one, but stuck with the former. listening is about taste, people.

wine will last you 1-2 days, the cable will last you for years.
 
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tim3320070 said:

I'll take the lamp cord and buy wine with the left-over....
 

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melomaniac said:

okay, not cars then. I'll stick to audio gadgets for my parody of your statement:  "can you get better sound than an iPod? of course, not, why would apple, a leading gadget pusher, be able to sell something that does not give you the best sound." - my point is, your trust in mass products is naive. cables are as much part of a headphone as tires and suspension adjustments and chips and headers are for cars. tweak the parts, change the results. you may not believe in improvements - many people do however.

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Apple know full well that the majority of people who buy an ipod are not going to worry about the headphones that come with it. Upgrading an ipod with a new pair of headphones means you have a completely different overall headphone, not just a cable swap! 
 
The point about the suspension and tyres is irrelevant. Tyres and suspension provide measurable differences, cables do not.
 
You cant compare changing a cable to changing headphones or amps etc. Point me to one genuine cable study that has proved cables make a difference... i shall be sat here waiting

"In the end, such exotic cables probably do make a difference in the sound. Low makes a good point about the effect of all audio components, including cable. "The only way to get good sound is by not damaging whatever you started with. Every piece of equipment puts out a signal that's distorted compared to the input. Better equipment causes less damage to the signal. The process is like a descending staircase. Every piece of equipment, including the cable, is like a step, taking its toll on the sound. If you replace any step with one that doesn't descend as far, the entire staircase doesn't descend as far, and you have a better sound."
 
Ultimately, you must answer two questions for yourself. Can you hear a difference between various cables? If so, how much can you afford to spend on them? Try to arrange a listening test with a dealer who specializes in cable; you might even be able to perform some experiments in your own setup. As with the rest of your equipment, get the cable that sounds best to you (within your budget). That way, your sound will be as good as it can be. Who could ask for anything more?"
 
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/features/605cable/
 

Lazard, people talk about not damaging the signal, but how do you really know? You can get a visual representation of the signal on an oscilloscope. Most are very precise and detect minute changes that humans cannot. So if the "differences" of a cable do not appear on an oscilloscope, what chance is there that you actually hear a difference? If there is no difference in the signal, then what are you hearing?

I do not find the audio magazines credible. If you look at the economics of magazine publishing, most of their income comes from advertising. And a lot of advertising money comes from cables. Do you think they want to bite the hand that feeds them?

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rusitnpiece said:

Point me to one genuine cable study that has proved cables make a difference... i shall be sat here waiting

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why so lazy? instead of trolling here,  you could look for it yourself - since I bet you're not going to allow any "genuine cable study" even if there are a number of them mentioned in a number of head-fi threads. yawn!

I have in the past had a very thorough look for a pro cable study that is completely legitimate. The result was finding none wherever i looked!
 
Stop pushing it on to me and back up exactly what you said with hard evidence. If you can find ONE GENUINE cable study for me to look at then please be my guest because i certainly cant find any that come to the conclusion after-market cables make any difference whatsoever.
 
Grow up and stop accusing people who don't agree with you as being trolls, my opinion is as important in this thread as yours. Try reading the thread title again. At least i have made an effort to allow cable believers to provide me and non cable believers with evidence.
 
Have a browse through the sound science section and read the threads where measurements have been taken as apposed to word of mouth which you can never rely on 100%.

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lazard said:

wine will last you 1-2 days, the cable will last you for years.
 

 

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Oh but those 2 days are wonderful...

Since this is a DBT free forum, tests don't matter here.  As I wrote earlier, you anti-cable guys just can't wait to pick an online cable fight.

The voting include both pro and anti cable options, so this thread should also cover both.