[unfitstew]

Interesting. Part of the issue is that the Atrium drivers are slower than the Verite drivers. This is why the AO is good for slower and more lush music, but rock and metal are very quick and aggressive. I'm sure the AO is fine for rock and metal, I just don't think that is its specialty. The Verite drivers are very quick, which is why they should be a better match for rock and metal. Also, the AO tuning is more mid focused, which is why people consider it to have a similar focus as the HD6XX, but few consider the HD6XX an optimal fit for rock/metal. The hardwood AC I have is much better for rock and metal than the AO I used to have, since its tuning is more V-shaped, and the hard wood causes the transients to decay quicker, but even then I would say the VO/VC are better for rock and metal since their driver is so much quicker.

The main reason why I think people find the 6xx/600 not optimal for metal/rock is because of its super forward upper midrange. Metal especially needs a bit recessed upper mids because with the very aggressive guitars and such it gets shouty (and too aggressive) with forward upper mids. AO doesn't have as much upper mids to my ears. So at the very least it is a good amount more suited for rock tuning wise than the 6xx for rock. I would be curious if say the AO had Verite speed with its tuning. How it would compare pure tuning wise for rock/metal specifically vs how the VO/VC is now.

Edit: Admittedly I haven't compared the 6xx directly to my AO and AO for sure has more forward upper mids than not. So I could be wrong there. I also have the Camphur Burl VO which is a softer wood with 950 lbf janka hardness. Gorgeous wood though for sure.

 

[jonathan c]

I'm not sure exactly what is going on, but the Verite drivers are much quicker. Sound decays far quicker, and so it is very concise and sometimes even aggressive compared to the Atrium, which is very lush in comparison. **It probably has something to do with the fact that beryllium is super-light, being only number 4 on the periodic table.**

** I would agree totally if the beryllium were replacing part of the biocellulose material. As a coating, at least the beryllium is not weighing things down …

 

[Superunknown2]

The main reason why I think people find the 6xx/600 not optimal for metal/rock is because of its super forward upper midrange. Metal especially needs a bit recessed upper mids because with the very aggressive guitars and such it gets shouty (and too aggressive) with forward upper mids. AO doesn't have as much upper mids to my ears. So at the very least it is a good amount more suited for rock tuning wise than the 6xx for rock. I would be curious if say the AO had Verite speed with its tuning. How it would compare pure tuning wise for rock/metal specifically vs how the VO/VC is now.

Edit: Admittedly I haven't compared the 6xx directly to my AO and AO for sure has more forward upper mids than not. So I could be wrong there. I also have the Camphur Burl VO which is a softer wood with 950 lbf janka hardness. Gorgeous wood though for sure.

Good point. From what I understand, the issue with the AO on hard rock and metal isn't per se that it is mid focused, though that probably doesn't help since that isn't optimal tuning for rock/metal. I believe the bigger issue is that it has a peak in the part of the FR where distorted electric guitars tend to show up, so when this happens, it gets very crowded. That point has been made by several reviewers, and it certainly agrees with my experience with the AO. The hard wood AC doesn't have this problem at all since it is V-shaped. I listen to rock and metal all the time with and it is great, especially with music like Tool. I think, if someone wants an Atrium for rock/metal, the hard wood AC is definitely the way to go.

 

[unfitstew]

Good point. From what I understand, the issue with the AO on hard rock and metal isn't per se that it is mid focused, though that probably doesn't help since that isn't optimal tuning for rock/metal. I believe the bigger issue is that it has a peak in the part of the FR where distorted electric guitars tend to show up, so when this happens, it gets very crowded. That point has been made by several reviewers, and it certainly agrees with my experience with the AO. The hard wood AC doesn't have this problem at all since it is V-shaped. I listen to rock and metal all the time with and it is great, especially with music like Tool. I think, if someone wants an Atrium for rock/metal, the hard wood AC is definitely the way to go.

Yeah. Which is partially why I am deciding on moving on from my Olivewood AC or not. The purple Ash fits my aesthetic tastes so well but it is a softer wood.

Kind of same thing with my VO. I love the Camphur Burls look but I probably would prefer the Ironwoods sound more with it.

 

[Benesyed]

We bought a LOT of the EU ash and plan to use it for numerous things for a while, we will likely have this LTD run through at least DEC 10th or so.

We are moving to a new larger location in January/Feb, right now we're not taking tours or anything but are going to set-up a dedicated listening area and do shop tours/open hours around once every month or so when we get that in place.

Right now we are so out of space and so busy it's hard to accommodate unfortunately which does stink.

Understood, looking forward to that in the future. Would be nice to be able to listen to amp equipment in a little show space! I honestly think amps are so much harder to buy than headphones!

 

[zach915m]

That point has been made by several reviewers

Hey hey hey I'm getting reviewer PTSD - let's stop referencing reviewers or I'm going to run away and hide!

 

[AudioDuck]

So that would then make sense why your blackwood VC is really good for jazz. I have a hardwood AC and it is really good with subbass and rock/metal. If you get a AC in the future, realize that the hardwood AC causes the subbass to decay much quicker, which tames the subbass.

Great point. My Eikon, which has exceptional subbass, is Bocote (~2,000 lb/sq ft Janka rating).

It is very capable with fast, bass-heavy music (rock, electronica, pop) without blurring transients nor letting beats decay too quickly for my ears.

I have seen a number of people think the soft wood AC has too much subbass for genres with a lot of busy transients, though this can be tammed with suede pads. So if you want bassier music on the AC, go with softwood. If you want to listen to music with more tranisients, like rock or metal, and don't want to be depenent on suede pads, go with the hardwood.

As @Monsterzero says “if you love bass, get an AC in a hardwood, but if you REALLY love bass, get an AC in a soft wood”. As speedy transients and swift, deep beats are often on my playlist, a medium-to-hard wood is ideal for my AC purchase… I’m thinking 1,700-3,000 Janka most likely.

 

[unfitstew]

Great point. My Eikon, which has exceptional subbass, is Bocote (~2,000 lb/sq ft Janka rating).

It is very capable with fast, bass-heavy music (rock, electronica, pop) without blurring transients nor letting beats decay too quickly for my ears.

As @Monsterzero says “if you love bass, get an AC in a hardwood, but if you REALLY love bass, get an AC in a soft wood”. As speedy transients and swift, deep beats are often on my playlist, a medium-to-hard wood is ideal for my AC purchase… I’m thinking 1,700-3,000 Janka most likely.

If I end up selling you my Olivewood I think you will love it. It is 2,600/2,700 Janka iirc. It has such great bass and is such a good closed back. I view it as an upgraded/super Eikon. Not that the Eikon doesn't hold its own weight and holds up to newer headphones.

 

[Superunknown2]

Hey hey hey I'm getting reviewer PTSD - let's stop referencing reviewers or I'm going to run away and hide!

lol sorry I'll stop. BTW ConvinceMeAudio is about to release a great review of the VO. I love all your headphones, and most of the reviewers I have seen do also. Embrace the (competent) reviewers, flaws and all!! ok I'll stop now lol

 

[zach915m]

Embrace the (competent) reviewers, flaws and all!!

Yes yes I love them all I swear!

 

[Superunknown2]

Great point. My Eikon, which has exceptional subbass, is Bocote (~2,000 lb/sq ft Janka rating).

It is very capable with fast, bass-heavy music (rock, electronica, pop) without blurring transients nor letting beats decay too quickly for my ears.

As @Monsterzero says “if you love bass, get an AC in a hardwood, but if you REALLY love bass, get an AC in a soft wood”. As speedy transients and swift, deep beats are often on my playlist, a medium-to-hard wood is ideal for my AC purchase… I’m thinking 1,700-3,000 Janka most likely.

Zach has said the AC is in part a successor to the Eikon, a closed back bass canon. I used to have an Eikon, and the AC is waaayyyyyy better. The issue on the AC is not how much bass you want, since they both have the same amount (soft wood is more quantity but less tight, hard wood is less quantity but more tight), but if your music has a lot of busy tranisents, and whether you prefer suede or leather pads. If you will use suede pads, hard or soft wood AC doesn't really matter. But if you will use leather pads, get a soft wood if your music doesn't have a lot of busy tranisents (like EDM) and hard wood if it does.

 

[jonathan c]

Zach has said the AC is in part a successor to the Eikon, a closed back bass canon. I used to have an Eikon, and the AC is waaayyyyyy better. The issue on the AC is not how much bass you want, since they both have the same amount (soft wood is more quantity but less tight, hard wood is less quantity but more tight), but if your music has a lot of busy tranisents, and whether you prefer suede or leather pads. If you will use suede pads, hard or soft wood AC doesn't really matter. But if you will use leather pads, get a soft wood if your music doesn't have a lot of busy tranisents (like EDM) and hard wood if it does.

There is no lack of clarity, extension, impact, speed in the bass from Eikon LTD Cocobolo .

 

[Alenotta]

Yes yes I love them all I swear!

My review of my AC and Caldera are that they are simple the best of the best. I wish everyone could hear them on a 300b amp and experience the holographic magic that just melts your brain. I started my ZMF journey two ZMF Novembers ago with a b-stock VC. It has been so rewarding for my ears. For anyone in that OCD researching mode considering getting a ZMF who hasn't had one yet...do it. B-stock are a great way to get something with the same sound and warranty for less.

 

[robo24]

My review of my AC and Caldera are that they are simple the best of the best. I wish everyone could hear them on a 300b amp and experience the holographic magic that just melts your brain. I started my ZMF journey two ZMF Novembers ago with a b-stock VC. It has been so rewarding for my ears. For anyone in that OCD researching mode considering getting a ZMF who hasn't had one yet...do it. B-stock are a great way to get something with the same sound and warranty for less.

My first time hearing either a Caldera or a 300b amp was both together and both became must-haves and bring the Verites up a level. I have the Envy instead of the Cayin but i'm sure that's also amazing.

A b-stock was one of my first ZMFs and I never did figure out what was "less than" about it. Great way to go though for a first ZMF if you've not heard one, as you're not risking as much if they're not to your taste. And if you have heard one and know what you want, they're also a great way to save money. My b stock blackwood Verite Open is still my #2 or 3 favorite after the Caldera. AC being the other.

 

[Leto Dal]

I have/had the AO, AC, VO and VC. VC isn't as wide of a soundstage as VO but is more 3D and holographic. With the VC it felt like having a bubble of visceral sound you could feel around you, almost like wearing a helmet of sound. It was almost like the audio equivalent of wearing a virtual reality headset. The VC also has a sub-bass rumble that the VO doesn't have. The VO is cleaner and more neutral. Frankly I suggest having both. And going with the ironwoods, if you can handle the weight. I had a regular wood VO and found it uninteresting. I just got an ironwood VO (at $2200 it is a steal right now) and I honestly think it is the best headphone I have ever had. It is tight and concise. It has excellent bass, mids that sound right (the upper mids seemed a little recessed on the softer wood) and the treble is great. ConvinceMeAudio is about to release a review on the VO. He already has a review out on the ironwood VC and he thinks it is one of the best headphones he has ever had, and by far the best closeback. Z also reviewed the ironwood VC and came to the same conclusion. I had the standard wood AO for several months and didn't care for it so I sold it. Because of the tuning of the AO, and the slowness of the driver, it is best for genres I don't listen to much of, like folk and acoustic. People say it is good for classical, but I never cared for the AO on any kind of instrumental music. WaveTheory said the AO gets too crowded in the upper mids at certain frequencies to make it good for rock and metal, and I have to agree. ConvinceMeAudio said the AO gets crowded in probably similar frequencies, which he thought negatively impacted some busy orchestral music. My point on all that is the VO/VC is excellent for rock and metal in particular. The Ironwood VO in my experience is good with almost everything, while the VC seemed better with rock and metal. The AO is probably best with folk and acoustic. I also have a hardwood AC and it is really good with almost everything. So the question is just what do you want to listen to.

Interesting, I have 2 VO, a Pheasantwood 2019 model and a Sapele. Pheasantwood sounds a bit lusher, but it might be the driver that is in use for over 4 years at this point.
I never found neither of those VO good for rock and metal. When it comes to those genres I listen to quite a lot of 90s grunge (hello Soundgarden!), stoner rock (Kyuss, Orange Goblin and such) and and ofcourse prog like Tool and Mastodon. Apart of that 60-70s rock like King Crismon and the usual classic rock suspects. To me VO just doesnt seperate well enough and lack weight to the notes I like. I prefer my VOs for bluegrass, country, indie rock, chamber jazz and vocal heavy stuff. To me there is no other headphone that can present such a cohesive soundscape with inatural microdetail and absolutely incredible euphonic vocals. Feist or Andrew Bird are fantastic with VO or jazz like Patricia Barber. But it falls apart for me for rock and metal a bit, especially on weaker recordings and overly complex arrangments.

For rock and especially prog I grab my redheart Caldera, which has bit more weight to the notes and seperates so much better, still maintaining the natural sound and microdetail. For stoner and doom I find my redwood burl AC incredible. I wonder if its the wood of my VO or just my preference what I expect rock and metal to sound like, but VO is anything but a rock headphone for me, I listen exclusivly to the stuff mentioned above. Caldera on the other hand is probably best allrounder I had, it does basically everything damn well, from classic, edm,rock,.industrial to jazz. Atrium Closed despite having a slower driver, is great for electronic music and some rock / metal too.

Still not sure if I should get VC or AO and if so which wood. I heavily lean towards stabilised stuff atm.