Interesting! I'm also very treble-sensitive and now I'm really looking forward to hearing the Caldera Closed for myself at CanJam SoCal.
ZMF Caldera Closed
- Thread starter goldwerger
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The treble is quite a bit less than the Caldera Open and Atrium Closed and personally it's my favorite treble presentation and quantity of the whole lineup.
idairyou
1000+ Head-Fier
Amplify Audio has his review up on the CC.
Playing around with the mesh because I was curious about (and wanting) a bass boost with the black mesh. Primarily because I still perceive more bass with the Open than the Closed and have been listening primarily to the AC the past several months and the bass quantity sounds much greater on those. Using suedes on all.
The first graph is from the measurements section of the website and the 2nd is from the video about changing the mesh. I'm guessing these were different rigs and maybe different pads too? The major difference is in the first graph everything up to 200Hz is elevated, especially below 30, and again from about 1.5-6.5kHz, while the 2nd shows no bass elevation at all and a different treble boost, just 4.2-9.5kHz. So there either is or isn't a significant bass boost with the black mesh.
Perhaps @zach915m can answer definitively but also curious what others who have swapped mesh have heard.
Good news is the mesh swapping was much easier than I expected and pretty fool proof. I feared it would be much more sticky and prone to tearing but not at all! So far liking the black mesh as much as the red, but it's not like it's as easy to A/B as pad swapping. In both graphs the black is showing a treble boost and that's not bothering me and the Open still sounds brighter, with at least female vocals on the Open sounding more recessed when I get the sub-bass to the same volume on both models. On my 2 sub-bass test tracks, around 3:25 of Why So Serious? from The Dark Knight soundtrack and Beyoncé's Partition at about :10 I do feel like with the black mesh the amount of sub-bass is now equal to or exceeding the Open.
I tried no mesh which I thought would be awful, but it wasn't. I still prefered any mesh over no mesh. The most consistent difference between the red and black meshes in both the above graphs is the boost with black in the 4-6kHz range. So far I'm preferring that treble boost, but that's also the range where I have the most hearing loss so that makes sense and I'm probably hearing closer to the what those without hearing loss get from the red mesh. Regardless I'm leaving the red mesh on for review purposes until I get through all the comparing I planned, because I'd like to review as close to stock as I can.
What's interesting is when I go back and forth with the Open there is still something a little too bright for me now on the Open which I ordered that mesh to try to tame. So even with no mesh on the CC, it doesn't have whatever that range is that the Open does which is irking me slightly.
The first graph is from the measurements section of the website and the 2nd is from the video about changing the mesh. I'm guessing these were different rigs and maybe different pads too? The major difference is in the first graph everything up to 200Hz is elevated, especially below 30, and again from about 1.5-6.5kHz, while the 2nd shows no bass elevation at all and a different treble boost, just 4.2-9.5kHz. So there either is or isn't a significant bass boost with the black mesh.
Perhaps @zach915m can answer definitively but also curious what others who have swapped mesh have heard.
Good news is the mesh swapping was much easier than I expected and pretty fool proof. I feared it would be much more sticky and prone to tearing but not at all! So far liking the black mesh as much as the red, but it's not like it's as easy to A/B as pad swapping. In both graphs the black is showing a treble boost and that's not bothering me and the Open still sounds brighter, with at least female vocals on the Open sounding more recessed when I get the sub-bass to the same volume on both models. On my 2 sub-bass test tracks, around 3:25 of Why So Serious? from The Dark Knight soundtrack and Beyoncé's Partition at about :10 I do feel like with the black mesh the amount of sub-bass is now equal to or exceeding the Open.
I tried no mesh which I thought would be awful, but it wasn't. I still prefered any mesh over no mesh. The most consistent difference between the red and black meshes in both the above graphs is the boost with black in the 4-6kHz range. So far I'm preferring that treble boost, but that's also the range where I have the most hearing loss so that makes sense and I'm probably hearing closer to the what those without hearing loss get from the red mesh. Regardless I'm leaving the red mesh on for review purposes until I get through all the comparing I planned, because I'd like to review as close to stock as I can.
What's interesting is when I go back and forth with the Open there is still something a little too bright for me now on the Open which I ordered that mesh to try to tame. So even with no mesh on the CC, it doesn't have whatever that range is that the Open does which is irking me slightly.
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idairyou
1000+ Head-Fier
If you purchased the Caldera thick (top perf only) with your CC, put those on your AC. Adds a bit more air, and bass impact.
I did put the suede (top perf only) on the Bokeh and it is not coming off. It adds a lushness to the Bokeh that can't be beat for me.
I also prefer the black mesh with all the pads. I still haven't decided which pad I like best with the CC yet. All I do know is I need to buy an extra set of top perf only thick and suede when they go on sale individually.
Also did anyone notice it took longer to break in the CC compared to other ZMFs. It took about 250 hours before my brain fully clicked into the FR.
JackarlTwo
500+ Head-Fier
Playing around with the mesh because I was curious about (and wanting) a bass boost with the black mesh. Primarily because I still perceive more bass with the Open than the Closed and have been listening primarily to the AC the past several months and the bass quantity sounds much greater on those. Using suedes on all.
The first graph is from the measurements section of the website and the 2nd is from the video about changing the mesh. I'm guessing these were different rigs and maybe different pads too? The major difference is in the first graph everything up to 200Hz is elevated, especially below 30, and again from about 1.5-6.5kHz, while the 2nd shows no bass elevation at all and a different treble boost, just 4.2-9.5kHz. So there either is or isn't a significant bass boost with the black mesh.
Perhaps @zach915m can answer definitively but also curious what others who have swapped mesh have heard.
Good news is the mesh swapping was much easier than I expected and pretty fool proof. I feared it would be much more sticky and prone to tearing but not at all! So far liking the black mesh as much as the red, but it's not like it's as easy to A/B as pad swapping. In both graphs the black is showing a treble boost and that's not bothering me and the Open still sounds brighter, with at least female vocals on the Open sounding more recessed when I get the sub-bass to the same volume on both models. On my 2 sub-bass test tracks, around 3:25 of Why So Serious? from The Dark Knight soundtrack and Beyoncé's Partition at about :10 I do feel like with the black mesh the amount of sub-bass is now equal to or exceeding the Open.
I tried no mesh which I thought would be awful, but it wasn't. I still prefered any mesh over no mesh. The most consistent difference between the red and black meshes in both the above graphs is the boost with black in the 4-6kHz range. So far I'm preferring that treble boost, but that's also the range where I have the most hearing loss so that makes sense and I'm probably hearing closer to the what those without hearing loss get from the red mesh. Regardless I'm leaving the red mesh on for review purposes until I get through all the comparing I planned, because I'd like to review as close to stock as I can.
What's interesting is when I go back and forth with the Open there is still something a little too bright for me now on the Open which I ordered that mesh to try to tame. So even with no mesh on the CC, it doesn't have whatever that range is that the Open does which is irking me slightly.
I'm pretty sure they're the same rigs and pads. But I'm not sure if the CC meshes have that much impact on bass frequencies, it could just be a matter of difference in seal when measuring. I'd imagine the meshes would mostly affect 2KHz and up. @zach915m or @AnyDave could clarify!
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AnyDave
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The meshes shouldn’t have any effect on bass frequencies. I suspect you are correct that there is a difference in the seal on the test figure.
Some more thoughts after another week with the Caldera Closed. This is absolutely my favorite ZMF and therefore favorite headphone.
I didn't expect to prefer it over the Open, which has been my favorite since I got a pre-release version. It's an incredible achievement to basically take everything I loved about the Open, make it a bit warmer, and make it a closed headphone. I'm realizing how much of an advantage closed is for me, as I'm hearing things in the Closed that I'm not as much in the open. Because it's always warm where I live and windows and inside doors are always open, there is always ambient noise from my computer fan, the wind, nature sounds, distant humming from appliances. At night it's even louder. Being closed greatly reduces all that and creates a greater sense of atmosphere and little background sounds in music are very obvious while I barely hear some of them on the Open at the same volume.
Spent much of the past 2 days comparing with my Macassar Ebony Atrium Closed and Koa Verite Closed. As I've found when comparing the Caldera Open with the open version of those 2 others, the CC is just on another level in terms of detail, imaging, clarity with an overal tonality more similar to the Verites than the Atriums.
The AC is definitely brighter, and my Macassar is much less bright than the Redwood Burl AC I also have, while the CC is more expansive and detailed.
When going to the AC the treble really jumps out. Vocals are more forward on the CC but it’s not a huge difference. The AC will seem wider initially when switching to it, but I think that’s mostly the greater treble and vocals seeming slightly further away, creating more of a sense of space. The AC are more forgiving of less than ideal recordings, but the CC is still more forgiving that the CO.
Listening to the drum solo at the end of Snarky Puppy’s live “Take It!” it’s much easier to hear the placement of each sound, and everything is more distinct, like there’s actually more happening on the CC. When I switched to the VC, it’s more intense and in your face, but still not as clear and distinct. The drums in the middle of TOOL’s “Chocolate Chip Trip” are just insane on the CC. There’s just more to every beat like I can almost visualize shape and texture of each sound. Again, the VC is the most intense because everything is just in a smaller bubble, with that masking some of the detail though still having more than the AC.
Sub-bass quantity is clearly greater on the AC, creating more of a rumble and sense of physicality than the CC. Cymbals stand out much more on the AC. On tracks with a good amount of bass the AC comes across as the more full sounding headphone, but on tracks without that it can actually come across as more thin sounding.
The lambskin thick pads make the vocals less forward and more difficult to focus on though they do sound the widest. Tried them a couple different times but didn’t last more than a few songs either time. Just not for me. Leathers all feel too hot on my skin, kind of immediately.
The protein still do feel the most exciting/fun and maybe the most detailed, but at the expense of stage width and I think that is what’s creating a perception of more detail as sounds at the extremes come across a little louder because they’re closer to the center. I want to try them again with EDM, but for other music for now I don't see wanting to use them frequently.
Every time I go back to the Top Wide Perf suedes they just sound the most right for me. I wasn't sent the hybrid pads so can't comment on those, though from graphs they seem to measure very similarly. I also tried to Top Perf suedes, and the greater density of holes on the top surface just takes away too much bass. I find them just right on the AC, but the Top Wide Perf which are the stock suedes on the CC don’t have that issue and I completely understand why Zach made that change to the suedes for the CC specifically.
Verite Closed with Auteur suede solids are about 5-6db louder than the CC. CC soundstage is much wider, the bass seems much more spread out and detailed, female vocals a bit more forward. Female vocals on the VC are closer to sibilant and a bit more nasally. Overall much more similar than the CC compared to the AC. The mid-bass quantity is very similar, but just so much more detailed and textured on the CC. Sub-bass seems more present on the CC.
On my days off next week I'm planning to do much more comparing with the DCA Stealth, the only other closed planar I own, and really one of the few TOTL ones out there.
The Redheart cups remain some of the most beautiful pieces of wood I've seen and I'm loving the shape even more than I did initially!
I didn't expect to prefer it over the Open, which has been my favorite since I got a pre-release version. It's an incredible achievement to basically take everything I loved about the Open, make it a bit warmer, and make it a closed headphone. I'm realizing how much of an advantage closed is for me, as I'm hearing things in the Closed that I'm not as much in the open. Because it's always warm where I live and windows and inside doors are always open, there is always ambient noise from my computer fan, the wind, nature sounds, distant humming from appliances. At night it's even louder. Being closed greatly reduces all that and creates a greater sense of atmosphere and little background sounds in music are very obvious while I barely hear some of them on the Open at the same volume.
Spent much of the past 2 days comparing with my Macassar Ebony Atrium Closed and Koa Verite Closed. As I've found when comparing the Caldera Open with the open version of those 2 others, the CC is just on another level in terms of detail, imaging, clarity with an overal tonality more similar to the Verites than the Atriums.
The AC is definitely brighter, and my Macassar is much less bright than the Redwood Burl AC I also have, while the CC is more expansive and detailed.
When going to the AC the treble really jumps out. Vocals are more forward on the CC but it’s not a huge difference. The AC will seem wider initially when switching to it, but I think that’s mostly the greater treble and vocals seeming slightly further away, creating more of a sense of space. The AC are more forgiving of less than ideal recordings, but the CC is still more forgiving that the CO.
Listening to the drum solo at the end of Snarky Puppy’s live “Take It!” it’s much easier to hear the placement of each sound, and everything is more distinct, like there’s actually more happening on the CC. When I switched to the VC, it’s more intense and in your face, but still not as clear and distinct. The drums in the middle of TOOL’s “Chocolate Chip Trip” are just insane on the CC. There’s just more to every beat like I can almost visualize shape and texture of each sound. Again, the VC is the most intense because everything is just in a smaller bubble, with that masking some of the detail though still having more than the AC.
Sub-bass quantity is clearly greater on the AC, creating more of a rumble and sense of physicality than the CC. Cymbals stand out much more on the AC. On tracks with a good amount of bass the AC comes across as the more full sounding headphone, but on tracks without that it can actually come across as more thin sounding.
The lambskin thick pads make the vocals less forward and more difficult to focus on though they do sound the widest. Tried them a couple different times but didn’t last more than a few songs either time. Just not for me. Leathers all feel too hot on my skin, kind of immediately.
The protein still do feel the most exciting/fun and maybe the most detailed, but at the expense of stage width and I think that is what’s creating a perception of more detail as sounds at the extremes come across a little louder because they’re closer to the center. I want to try them again with EDM, but for other music for now I don't see wanting to use them frequently.
Every time I go back to the Top Wide Perf suedes they just sound the most right for me. I wasn't sent the hybrid pads so can't comment on those, though from graphs they seem to measure very similarly. I also tried to Top Perf suedes, and the greater density of holes on the top surface just takes away too much bass. I find them just right on the AC, but the Top Wide Perf which are the stock suedes on the CC don’t have that issue and I completely understand why Zach made that change to the suedes for the CC specifically.
Verite Closed with Auteur suede solids are about 5-6db louder than the CC. CC soundstage is much wider, the bass seems much more spread out and detailed, female vocals a bit more forward. Female vocals on the VC are closer to sibilant and a bit more nasally. Overall much more similar than the CC compared to the AC. The mid-bass quantity is very similar, but just so much more detailed and textured on the CC. Sub-bass seems more present on the CC.
On my days off next week I'm planning to do much more comparing with the DCA Stealth, the only other closed planar I own, and really one of the few TOTL ones out there.
The Redheart cups remain some of the most beautiful pieces of wood I've seen and I'm loving the shape even more than I did initially!
The more i read about the CC the more i want one. Every single thing i read about it seems to be what i like. The more laid-back and non-fatiguing midrange and voices especially. Most of the ZMF's have too much energy for me in the midrange, i find them shouty. I also like both treble and bass extension, so i don't like a HD600 headphone a la Atrium that much. The VO was perfect. I really liked it. And i currently have no real closed-back, only the Maxwell and IEM's. I'm also a sucker for planars and i heard every closed-back planar on the market and there is not a single one without compromises (only one i haven't heard is E3).
I'll wait for a nice stabilized version in November. Oh boy, i'm excited. I will also just get the whole mesh and pad combo.
I'll wait for a nice stabilized version in November. Oh boy, i'm excited. I will also just get the whole mesh and pad combo.
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I think I get what you mean with the midrange shoutiness. I had the same problem with my Atrium at first and had to use the Auteur Pads because the Universe were too shouty for me.
I think my ears adjusted over time though. I still don't like the Universe on my Verite that much though (Verite Pads ftw)
I was coming from stuff like Hifiman Arya, HE1000v2, Stax SR-009BK, HD800S, Beyerdynamics... all pretty lifeless in the midrange with strong treble in comparison in my opinion, I just wasn't used to that kind of sound yet.
Still the Caldera Closed definitely is more recessed in that area, similiar to the Bokeh I feel like. Also if you like the Verite I am pretty sure you will like the CC as well.
Wood maybe plays a role too, when I got my stabilized resin Atrium I was comparing it to my Cherry Aged Copper version and it also felt a bit less shouty with faster decay in the upper frequencies. Could have been placebo as well though.
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AnyDave
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The Atrium Open definitely has the most pronounced primary peak of all of the ZMF headphones. The CC and the VO are a bit lower in amplitude in that are of the frequency response.
It is also part what makes the Atrium so special though. Together with the kick, it adds excitement (that "attention!") to that otherwise more romantic laid back sound.
Yeah, I just edited my post while you were posting. I think the Verite and CC are pretty simliar in that they are both very easy to listen to without any areas in the sound signature that stand out too much.
AnyDave
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Oh, absolutely. I love the Atrium. I'm used to listening to headphones and IEMs with that type of response.
Oh, sorry to go kinda OT here but could you mention some IEMs that are similiar to the Atrium? I don't like my Monarch MKIII that much anymore (too much bass) and was looking for a "ZMF IEM"
AnyDave
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Hmm, I'm not sure I have any particular recommendations. I worked on the old Etymotic ER4s, which have a similar primary peak to the Atrium. I wouldn't say they sound identical, though.
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