I don't have my Ori anymore, but that was my first love and one I can still remember quite well. I have actually been chatting with Zach about this, and how while listening with the CC's, I do get some Ori vibes. The way the sound jumps way outside the cups yet remains weighty and smooth is similar. The CC's don't hit quite as hard down low, but are more refined, tighter and textured. The CC are more resolving and tighter sounding top to bottom, with better extension up top as well, while still staying smooth. The CC are cleaner and bigger sounding, with better speed and more expansive staging in all directions, and one could say the CC is somewhat a "Super Ori". All that said, they do have their differences, and I would have to have an Ori on hand to get into more specifics. I can say this though, if you like the Ori, I think you will love the CC.
I was just about to type the same thing, and I concur.
I’ve yet to hear the CC (eagerly awaiting the day I get the opportunity), but currently own the VC & AC. The AC is really great for movies.
Yeah one thing I love about ZMF closed backs is they don't skimp on dynamics.
I have them both let me finish a small system rearrangement i'm in the midst of and i'll give them a quick side by side.
We have here the Alpha and Omega! First and last! Ok I don't know if the Caldera will be Zach's last planar, but it sounds really cool to say Alpha and Omega, so I'm using it. Fight me!
What a fantastic comparison, I only have the Atrium Opens and this compels me to listen to these same songs to see what I can hearWe have here the Alpha and Omega! First and last! Ok I don't know if the Caldera will be Zach's last planar, but it sounds really cool to say Alpha and Omega, so I'm using it. Fight me!
Behold the Ori, the alpha. Pinnacle of ZMF Fostex mods. From it's birth pains sprung forth the ZMF universe and all contained within its vastness. And it's foil, the Omega, the Caldera Closed (CC going forward). A newborn star burning with the intensity of youth and vitality. Set to a decaying orbit they spin, the heat of competition burning away all but the essence of each. As they collide only one shall remain. Will the old become the new? Alpha to Omega? Or will the old be vanquished to the void of darkness? Will the Omega truly remain unchallenged? Come my ZMF brothers and sisters, the church bell rings, the pulpit beckons. Bend thy knees and hear my words of such an epic struggle the likes of which none can comprehend. Let thy sonic waters cleanse thee!
Or just read this idiot's comparison of two headphones.
It's easier for me to do stream of consciousness thoughts while listening so this will be a bit haphazard and random to read, sorry. CC using red mesh with Caldera thick pads. Ori no mesh or tunning materials, and Ori cowhide pads. Border Patrol Nos dac and DNA Stratus amps. Tidal hifi/lossless for music files.
Jethro Tull - Aqualung:
Ori:
First though, why don't i listen to these more?!?!? So fun. I started tapping my feet as soon as the riffs started.
Fostex frame is so weird feeling after years of ZMFs. Zach's frames are light years more comfortable.
Transients hazier. Overall resolution not as high, just hazier all around.
Warmer tuning.
Bass a bit more one-note vs the ultra expressive CC's bass. Not boomy, but lacking fine detail and textural info.
More bass weight, thicker.
Less fatiguing.
More intimate stage, but still spacious enough for me. CC just more cathedral-like.
CC:
Slightly thinner sounding, not as full. More upper mid presence.
Heavier on my head, but feels better/more comfortable.
Micro detail more easily identified.
Wider stage.
Honestly kinda glaring in the upper mids vs the Ori. Need to do a frequency sweep to identify the hz I'm hearing glare.
After the first "eyeing little girls with bad intent" Ian gives a little giggle as the lyrics fade off. Stand out far more with the CC. Honestly I rarely hear the light giggle with most other headphones unless i'm looking for it. CC just pulls it out easily.
Final thoughts:
Call me nuts, I had more fun with the Ori on this track. Not as fatiguing up top, and the warmer overall presentation just fits me better. All technical merits go to CC by a decent margin. But technical ability doesn't always mean better, lesson learned. Wow, color me surprised, I thought the CC would kick the Ori in the sack on everything. This is going to be interesting...
Queen - Keep Yourself Alive:
Ori:
Opening strumming more side to side, less front to back spatial movement. Still well done, just no match for the CC.
Again warmer tonal balance.
Vocals lacking nuance vs CC. Not as expressive or engaging. Dull in comparison.
Drum solo slams harder than CC. Very exciting.
CC:
Opening strumming seems to shimmer around the stage, up/down/back/forward. Very cool effect. Excellent staging by the CC.
Drum solo in the middle epic in detail, space, and overall presentation. But... could use more weight. Still had me toe tapping hard.
Vocals more engaging. Hearing breaths and subtle inflections that are dulled on the Ori.
Guitars have more presence.
For this track the CC just works, I have no desire to go back to the Ori for this one.
Final thoughts:
The CC Strikes Back! Like that black helmeted demon of Lucas' nightmares, the CC dominates undisputed here. This track sounded more fun and engaging on the CC. The Ori was a bit dull in comparison. The leaner tonal balance of the CC worked better for me.
Iron Maiden - The Clairvoyant:
Ori:
Bass strumming to open thicker and weightier here. More engaging and exciting.
Drums have more impact and weight as well. Opening of track before vocals begin are more fun on Ori.
Guitars though weightier lack bite at the solos that rob them of their energy.
Really good overall listen, but I just keep wanting to go back to the CC.
Bruce lacks the usual emotion in his voice, the Ori dulls him.
CC:
Vocals better on CC, more forward and powerful. No fatigue, just better presence.
Noticeably more spacious sounding. Ori sounds boxed in next to CC here.
Guitar solos more fun, better bite and extension.
Being only a moderately resolving recording, the CC extracts the most from it.
Final thoughts:
What started out as an interesting comparison is starting to go how I initially expected. The CC takes this one easily, and goes up 2-1. Wasn't close, the CC rocked me, the Ori bored me.
Peter York - Space Race:
Ori:
Percussion is thunderous! Excellent impact, very fun.
Smaller sounding stage vs the CC but I might actually like it for it's honest simplicity. The CC might actually sound too spacious? Not quite, but close.
The funny breath gasps from the flute solo still cracking me up! But are less obvious on the Ori. More dull/smooth, and pushed back into the mix. Less highlighted...
Man that bass impact is fun! Keep coming back to how fun the bass is.
Drumming stands out on the Ori, winds/strings on the CC.
CC:
Flute solo around 1:30ish just sounds better here. More present, more nuanced, more...more! I love the little breaths the performer was taking between notes. They're so expressive and entertaining to me here. Ori dulls them, makes them harder to pull out of the mix.
CC's stage really showcases this track's wonderful recording quality. Sounds bigger, more spacious, and more separated.
Percussion is addicting. I swear I can see the drums themselves while Pete plays. I can almost see the subtle wrinkles and textures of the covering material.
Every time I hear that flute solo I crack up at those hilarious gasps for air!
Final thoughts:
I gotta say this one ended up being a tie for me. Lets not factor it into the score, still 2-1 CC. But they were enjoyable for different reasons. I felt the CC really nailed the winds and higher frequencies. But the Ori countered with such delicious bass impact. I did about 4 replays of this track with each headphone, and in the end I still didn't have a preference. If i'm in the mood for bass, Ori. Strings/winds, CC. This one could go either way for me, both equally as good, just different.
Lyle Lovett - Blues Walk (Live):
Ori:
Horns lacking presence. Sound small and far back.
As always, percussion is just fun, period. Any lack of nuance is made up for with power and impact.
Stage seemed unusually small on this track, and I cannot place why. The CC staged just fine. Thinking it's something in the less forward upper mids/treble that's giving the CC the larger, airier stage.
CC:
Sounds so much more spacious than the Ori.
The horn that comes in around 0:50ish finally sounds right. CC gives it adequate presence. Ori neuters it.
Everything just sounding better here. Not going to bother with repeated listening.
Final thoughts:
CC takes this one easily. Bigger, bolder, more nuanced, more subtle, still dynamic and impactful. The Ori's limitations are on display hard here. Unless you only care about bass quantity, the CC outclasses it here handily. 3-1 CC and moving right along.
Tom Petty - Mary Jane's Last Dance:
Ori:
Overall pucker factor not as high as the CC (keep reading to understand...).
Percussion lovely! Big and bold, drives the beat. CC drives with higher frequencies, the Ori with lows. Think i'm liking the Ori approach more.
Harmonica just as enjoyable on the Ori. Don't feel I've lost anything vs the CC.
Not going to spend much more time here, the Ori nails this track.
CC:
Everything has a slight sheen or glare to it. Making me tense, though not fully fatigued. Just a touch brighter than I like.
LOVE the harmonica harmonics. Beautiful decay and tone.
Tom's vocals are matched perfectly to the CC, big and bold, but not overly aggressive. Ori dulls his voice slightly, but not overly so. Both excellent.
Guitar solo around 2:30ish biting hard, making me pucker up... Both enjoyable and slightly too intense at the same time.
Another solo around 4:00 making me pucker...
Final thoughts:
And the Ori takes another one! I just found this track a bit too aggressive on the CC. The Ori channeled the energy and emotion of the track without any pucker factor. 3-2 CC, this is getting interesting again!
John 5 - The Werewolf of Westeria:
Ori:
Bass slamming! Double bass double slamming! TLDR fun bass...makes big booms.
Percussion really dominates and drives this track with the Ori.
Track lacking usual excitement, too dark.
CC:
Though not as punchy as the Ori, the drums are still quite potent on the CC.
Strings sound better, more present. This is a guitar driven track and the CC nails it. Too dark on the Ori.
Really rocking this one, so fun. I find this track to be pure energy through the 4ish minute mark and the CC just brings it.
Easy win for CC.
Final thoughts:
Not close, CC takes it. Being an 8 minute guitar solo jam session, any headphone better put the strings front and center. CC does this, Ori doesn't. 4-2 CC.
Souffle au coeur - L'Imperatrice:
Ori:
Ultra low bass not as present as CC. Mid bass though stronger punch. Has an odd hollow quality to the bass that's really confusing me. I don't get this on any other track with the Ori. But next to the CC it's like a particular frequency band is missing, and causing the bass to be somehow hallow sounding while still being extremely potent.
Woooooooooooooooo that bass punch is slamming! Harder than the CC for sure until it goes into the ultra ultra low stuff.
Synth tones sound weird, not correct after listening on the CC.
Overall this track doesn't sound good to me on the Ori. Too much low end punch but with a hollow or nasal quality to it.
Stopping the track after one listen, just don't like it.
CC:
Nice balance of lows to highs. Deep bass around 1:40ish really hits and rumbles. Woo does it hit.... good stuff!
Slight static crackling sound effects in track come through more noticeably.
Did I mention that low bass hits hard? Can feel the CC shaking from it.
Synthesizer tones not overly bright. These can get me on some headphones, but not here. Well done, forward but not too far forward.
Final thoughts:
CC with an easy win here, it just sounds correct to me, whereas the Ori sounds off, like something isn't right with the tuning. Thankfully I wouldn't say that about the Ori in a vacuum at all, just here with this track. We're at 5-2 CC and I'm starting to long for my Atrium on my OTL, so lets wrap this one up with one of my all time favorite songs.
Simon & Garfunkel - The Sound of Silence (Electric Version):
Ori:
Instant goosebumps!
Vocals are not as forward, but the warmer tuning make them more musical and enjoyable.
No glare or sheen here, very natural sounding and enjoyable.
CC:
Kinda thin sounding to open. The plucking guitar beneath the vocals are glaring at me.
Percussion actually sounds better here, more resolved and separated.
Bass guitar more easily identified vs the Ori, which hides it. To be fair, it's far back in the mix and not easy to make out at the best of systems.
Vocals are better here, more expressive. Both singers have ultra expressive and nuanced voices, and the CC picks up those subtle pitch fluctuations better.
A more technical listen, not as musical and engaging than the Ori.
Final thoughts:
Dam the Ori for kicking the CC in the sack on this one. I just found it to be more engaging overall. The CC was a bit too thin in comparison. This track is pretty bright and thin in general, and the CC does it no favors. The Ori's added warmth does wonders for it. 5-3 CC, lets wrap it up with final final thoughts.
Final Final Thoughts:
Despite a valiant effort from the Ori, it's Fostex driver was no match for the custom unit in the CC. It's amazing how much Zach was able to get out of that Fostex driver, I bow in respect. But the CC is just the better headphone all around. Despite it's slightly leaner overall tuning, it's still warm enough and highly engaging. I've found it does it's best on audiophile grade recordings that really take advantage of it's huge stage and resolving ability. The Ori is still fun and enjoyable though, make no mistake. I'm making it a point to rotate it in way more than I do now. But the CC is just too much for it when compared directly. The Omega remains, king of kings. Well unless I toss the AC at it....
Funny you mentioned the AO, I'm listening to it as we speak with my OTL. I know people love planars, but I just can't get over how good high impedance dynamic drivers sound with tube amps. I'll take the AO over the CO/CC any day if I could only have one headphone. Not even a thought. The CO/CC only enter the discussion as a complimentary piece to it.What a fantastic comparison, I only have the Atrium Opens and this compels me to listen to these same songs to see what I can hear
Great write-up. I always like and encourage people sharing their own experiences in more details.We have here the Alpha and Omega! First and last! Ok I don't know if the Caldera will be Zach's last planar, but it sounds really cool to say Alpha and Omega, so I'm using it. Fight me!
Behold the Ori, the alpha. Pinnacle of ZMF Fostex mods. From it's birth pains sprung forth the ZMF universe and all contained within its vastness. And it's foil, the Omega, the Caldera Closed (CC going forward). A newborn star burning with the intensity of youth and vitality. Set to a decaying orbit they spin, the heat of competition burning away all but the essence of each. As they collide only one shall remain. Will the old become the new? Alpha to Omega? Or will the old be vanquished to the void of darkness? Will the Omega truly remain unchallenged? Come my ZMF brothers and sisters, the church bell rings, the pulpit beckons. Bend thy knees and hear my words of such an epic struggle the likes of which none can comprehend. Let thy sonic waters cleanse thee!
Or just read this idiot's comparison of two headphones.
It's easier for me to do stream of consciousness thoughts while listening so this will be a bit haphazard and random to read, sorry. CC using red mesh with Caldera thick pads. Ori no mesh or tunning materials, and Ori cowhide pads. Border Patrol Nos dac and DNA Stratus amps. Tidal hifi/lossless for music files.
Jethro Tull - Aqualung:
Ori:
First though, why don't i listen to these more?!?!? So fun. I started tapping my feet as soon as the riffs started.
Fostex frame is so weird feeling after years of ZMFs. Zach's frames are light years more comfortable.
Transients hazier. Overall resolution not as high, just hazier all around.
Warmer tuning.
Bass a bit more one-note vs the ultra expressive CC's bass. Not boomy, but lacking fine detail and textural info.
More bass weight, thicker.
Less fatiguing.
More intimate stage, but still spacious enough for me. CC just more cathedral-like.
CC:
Slightly thinner sounding, not as full. More upper mid presence.
Heavier on my head, but feels better/more comfortable.
Micro detail more easily identified.
Wider stage.
Honestly kinda glaring in the upper mids vs the Ori. Need to do a frequency sweep to identify the hz I'm hearing glare.
After the first "eyeing little girls with bad intent" Ian gives a little giggle as the lyrics fade off. Stand out far more with the CC. Honestly I rarely hear the light giggle with most other headphones unless i'm looking for it. CC just pulls it out easily.
Final thoughts:
Call me nuts, I had more fun with the Ori on this track. Not as fatiguing up top, and the warmer overall presentation just fits me better. All technical merits go to CC by a decent margin. But technical ability doesn't always mean better, lesson learned. Wow, color me surprised, I thought the CC would kick the Ori in the sack on everything. This is going to be interesting...
Queen - Keep Yourself Alive:
Ori:
Opening strumming more side to side, less front to back spatial movement. Still well done, just no match for the CC.
Again warmer tonal balance.
Vocals lacking nuance vs CC. Not as expressive or engaging. Dull in comparison.
Drum solo slams harder than CC. Very exciting.
CC:
Opening strumming seems to shimmer around the stage, up/down/back/forward. Very cool effect. Excellent staging by the CC.
Drum solo in the middle epic in detail, space, and overall presentation. But... could use more weight. Still had me toe tapping hard.
Vocals more engaging. Hearing breaths and subtle inflections that are dulled on the Ori.
Guitars have more presence.
For this track the CC just works, I have no desire to go back to the Ori for this one.
Final thoughts:
The CC Strikes Back! Like that black helmeted demon of Lucas' nightmares, the CC dominates undisputed here. This track sounded more fun and engaging on the CC. The Ori was a bit dull in comparison. The leaner tonal balance of the CC worked better for me.
Iron Maiden - The Clairvoyant:
Ori:
Bass strumming to open thicker and weightier here. More engaging and exciting.
Drums have more impact and weight as well. Opening of track before vocals begin are more fun on Ori.
Guitars though weightier lack bite at the solos that rob them of their energy.
Really good overall listen, but I just keep wanting to go back to the CC.
Bruce lacks the usual emotion in his voice, the Ori dulls him.
CC:
Vocals better on CC, more forward and powerful. No fatigue, just better presence.
Noticeably more spacious sounding. Ori sounds boxed in next to CC here.
Guitar solos more fun, better bite and extension.
Being only a moderately resolving recording, the CC extracts the most from it.
Final thoughts:
What started out as an interesting comparison is starting to go how I initially expected. The CC takes this one easily, and goes up 2-1. Wasn't close, the CC rocked me, the Ori bored me.
Peter York - Space Race:
Ori:
Percussion is thunderous! Excellent impact, very fun.
Smaller sounding stage vs the CC but I might actually like it for it's honest simplicity. The CC might actually sound too spacious? Not quite, but close.
The funny breath gasps from the flute solo still cracking me up! But are less obvious on the Ori. More dull/smooth, and pushed back into the mix. Less highlighted...
Man that bass impact is fun! Keep coming back to how fun the bass is.
Drumming stands out on the Ori, winds/strings on the CC.
CC:
Flute solo around 1:30ish just sounds better here. More present, more nuanced, more...more! I love the little breaths the performer was taking between notes. They're so expressive and entertaining to me here. Ori dulls them, makes them harder to pull out of the mix.
CC's stage really showcases this track's wonderful recording quality. Sounds bigger, more spacious, and more separated.
Percussion is addicting. I swear I can see the drums themselves while Pete plays. I can almost see the subtle wrinkles and textures of the covering material.
Every time I hear that flute solo I crack up at those hilarious gasps for air!
Final thoughts:
I gotta say this one ended up being a tie for me. Lets not factor it into the score, still 2-1 CC. But they were enjoyable for different reasons. I felt the CC really nailed the winds and higher frequencies. But the Ori countered with such delicious bass impact. I did about 4 replays of this track with each headphone, and in the end I still didn't have a preference. If i'm in the mood for bass, Ori. Strings/winds, CC. This one could go either way for me, both equally as good, just different.
Lyle Lovett - Blues Walk (Live):
Ori:
Horns lacking presence. Sound small and far back.
As always, percussion is just fun, period. Any lack of nuance is made up for with power and impact.
Stage seemed unusually small on this track, and I cannot place why. The CC staged just fine. Thinking it's something in the less forward upper mids/treble that's giving the CC the larger, airier stage.
CC:
Sounds so much more spacious than the Ori.
The horn that comes in around 0:50ish finally sounds right. CC gives it adequate presence. Ori neuters it.
Everything just sounding better here. Not going to bother with repeated listening.
Final thoughts:
CC takes this one easily. Bigger, bolder, more nuanced, more subtle, still dynamic and impactful. The Ori's limitations are on display hard here. Unless you only care about bass quantity, the CC outclasses it here handily. 3-1 CC and moving right along.
Tom Petty - Mary Jane's Last Dance:
Ori:
Overall pucker factor not as high as the CC (keep reading to understand...).
Percussion lovely! Big and bold, drives the beat. CC drives with higher frequencies, the Ori with lows. Think i'm liking the Ori approach more.
Harmonica just as enjoyable on the Ori. Don't feel I've lost anything vs the CC.
Not going to spend much more time here, the Ori nails this track.
CC:
Everything has a slight sheen or glare to it. Making me tense, though not fully fatigued. Just a touch brighter than I like.
LOVE the harmonica harmonics. Beautiful decay and tone.
Tom's vocals are matched perfectly to the CC, big and bold, but not overly aggressive. Ori dulls his voice slightly, but not overly so. Both excellent.
Guitar solo around 2:30ish biting hard, making me pucker up... Both enjoyable and slightly too intense at the same time.
Another solo around 4:00 making me pucker...
Final thoughts:
And the Ori takes another one! I just found this track a bit too aggressive on the CC. The Ori channeled the energy and emotion of the track without any pucker factor. 3-2 CC, this is getting interesting again!
John 5 - The Werewolf of Westeria:
Ori:
Bass slamming! Double bass double slamming! TLDR fun bass...makes big booms.
Percussion really dominates and drives this track with the Ori.
Track lacking usual excitement, too dark.
CC:
Though not as punchy as the Ori, the drums are still quite potent on the CC.
Strings sound better, more present. This is a guitar driven track and the CC nails it. Too dark on the Ori.
Really rocking this one, so fun. I find this track to be pure energy through the 4ish minute mark and the CC just brings it.
Easy win for CC.
Final thoughts:
Not close, CC takes it. Being an 8 minute guitar solo jam session, any headphone better put the strings front and center. CC does this, Ori doesn't. 4-2 CC.
Souffle au coeur - L'Imperatrice:
Ori:
Ultra low bass not as present as CC. Mid bass though stronger punch. Has an odd hollow quality to the bass that's really confusing me. I don't get this on any other track with the Ori. But next to the CC it's like a particular frequency band is missing, and causing the bass to be somehow hallow sounding while still being extremely potent.
Woooooooooooooooo that bass punch is slamming! Harder than the CC for sure until it goes into the ultra ultra low stuff.
Synth tones sound weird, not correct after listening on the CC.
Overall this track doesn't sound good to me on the Ori. Too much low end punch but with a hollow or nasal quality to it.
Stopping the track after one listen, just don't like it.
CC:
Nice balance of lows to highs. Deep bass around 1:40ish really hits and rumbles. Woo does it hit.... good stuff!
Slight static crackling sound effects in track come through more noticeably.
Did I mention that low bass hits hard? Can feel the CC shaking from it.
Synthesizer tones not overly bright. These can get me on some headphones, but not here. Well done, forward but not too far forward.
Final thoughts:
CC with an easy win here, it just sounds correct to me, whereas the Ori sounds off, like something isn't right with the tuning. Thankfully I wouldn't say that about the Ori in a vacuum at all, just here with this track. We're at 5-2 CC and I'm starting to long for my Atrium on my OTL, so lets wrap this one up with one of my all time favorite songs.
Simon & Garfunkel - The Sound of Silence (Electric Version):
Ori:
Instant goosebumps!
Vocals are not as forward, but the warmer tuning make them more musical and enjoyable.
No glare or sheen here, very natural sounding and enjoyable.
CC:
Kinda thin sounding to open. The plucking guitar beneath the vocals are glaring at me.
Percussion actually sounds better here, more resolved and separated.
Bass guitar more easily identified vs the Ori, which hides it. To be fair, it's far back in the mix and not easy to make out at the best of systems.
Vocals are better here, more expressive. Both singers have ultra expressive and nuanced voices, and the CC picks up those subtle pitch fluctuations better.
A more technical listen, not as musical and engaging than the Ori.
Final thoughts:
Dam the Ori for kicking the CC in the sack on this one. I just found it to be more engaging overall. The CC was a bit too thin in comparison. This track is pretty bright and thin in general, and the CC does it no favors. The Ori's added warmth does wonders for it. 5-3 CC, lets wrap it up with final final thoughts.
Final Final Thoughts:
Despite a valiant effort from the Ori, it's Fostex driver was no match for the custom unit in the CC. It's amazing how much Zach was able to get out of that Fostex driver, I bow in respect. But the CC is just the better headphone all around. Despite it's slightly leaner overall tuning, it's still warm enough and highly engaging. I've found it does it's best on audiophile grade recordings that really take advantage of it's huge stage and resolving ability. The Ori is still fun and enjoyable though, make no mistake. I'm making it a point to rotate it in way more than I do now. But the CC is just too much for it when compared directly. The Omega remains, king of kings. Well unless I toss the AC at it....
Darn, you had me all in with this passage, the saga of Ori and CC in a ZMF alternate universe.
