[HeyManslowdown97]

Regarding DSD, I have found the DSD pro to process DSD files a bit strangely. If I convert a DSD to Flac which is lossless so it should sound the same, the DSD pro plays the DSD louder, while they sound exactly the same on my desktop. That might account for your perception of DSD being better, loudness is invariably interpreted as "more clarity" etc.

No! It is entirely different way the file is a processed. One is streamed with more information on one bit and the latter PCM (Flac) depending on resolution is generally 44/16 that means it streams at 44.1 in 16 bit resolution. It’s not the same sampling rate nor process. You actually the opposite you have lower the dB either -3 or below when converting PCM to DSD. I honestly don’t know what you are talking about it being played at a higher volume; that’s actually how they normalize many mp3s by jacking up the volume. If you played dsd at PCM red book -0.1 it would clip on the peaks in many recordings!

The DSD sounds fine and maybe they convert the Native files and trick to player as in DoP. The player believes it’s in PCM container but that’s a longer more older method process not used in many modern dacs and requires a lot of cpu power.

Moreover, many jazz enthusiasts (myself included) and recording studios favor DSD over any other format. They like DXD which is PCM in higher sampling and higher resolution. That’s why you buy a dac with chip like the akm4497 and that’s why they advertise it to play DSD NATIVELY and PCM at up to 768 kHz PCM at 32 bit.

From the offical Akm page of the Ak4497eq:

Supporting High Resolution Data
The first in the industry, a 22.4MHz DSD input is supported. The digital input supports up to 768 kHz PCM and 22.4 MHz DSD (Direct Stream Digital), recreating high-resolution sound that is as close as possible to the original acoustic source.

● Application

High-end Audio, Professional Audio, AV Receivers, CD/SACD Players, Network Audio, USB DAC’s

It’s in the description. Not sure why people buy this player or any dac with the akm4497 when all they play on them are mp3s. There are better mp3s players for that with better apps like upsampling the files to play at CD quality.

https://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/datasheet1/?partno=AK4497EQ

 

[citral23]

Maybe you should try for yourself (compare with foobar2000 on a desktop) before making statements and being passive-agressive with people with remarks such as "I honestly don’t know what you talking about", jumping on every post like it needs an immediate correction from your innate knowledge, that happens to have a lot of "I don't know but maybe" and marketing quotes all over it.

 

[HeyManslowdown97]

Maybe you should try for yourself (compare with foobar2000 on a desktop) before making statements and being passive-agressive with people with remarks such as "I honestly don’t know what you talking about", jumping on every post like it needs an immediate correction from your innate knowledge, that happens to have a lot of "I don't know but maybe" and marketing quotes all over it.

You need a dedicated sound card to hear the difference or an external dac that can playback dsd in Native mode. Geez, Louise!

Some people don’t like the format and that’s a personal choice.

 

[citral23]

Personally I like DSD but I think this is a very good read to remain objective and avoid versing into bias : http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0218/DSD_Versus_PCM_Myth_Versus_Truth.htm

 

[HeyManslowdown97]

Personally I like DSD but I think this is a very good read to remain objective and avoid versing into bias : http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0218/DSD_Versus_PCM_Myth_Versus_Truth.htm

I absolutely agree with the conclusion on the “Problem”. Digital errors in files or how things are processed is huge problem. However, there’s been huge improvement in this with clocks and buffering with heavy cpu intensity especially upsampling in real time (that’s why the Ashton and Kern portable flagship player cost 3 grand!)

The clocks are what a great needle is to vinyl players and lasers are to cd/dvd players.

The clocks that give off Ultra low phase noise oscillation work best in real time playback! And a rule of them you never want introduce unintended noise to the audio signal.

There are also debates about crystek vs silicon I believe crystek is better!

Some believe lowering the kHz and not using nyquist doubled sampling 44.1 in playback is better because it focuses on the frequencies of what people can actually hear.

“For easier comparsion(lower is better), we overlay the two phase noise graph at the same scale, under 25khz(human listenable range) over 25khz(human unlistenable range)” crystek is better with with lower ppm IMO.

I love DSD because it’s most analog of all the digital formats. That’s about it. DXD is nice too but it takes up a lot data to store and that’s why a encoder/decoder like MQA is amazing!

I also replaced my flash drive on my Zishan with 512 or 128 (can’t remember??) but in order to do so you have to re-write the software and reboot it on the new flash drive.

Which brings me to my last point as a very risky mod is to replace the stem Max Ii with with blank ones as development boards and open source your Zishan but you’d have the write the software from scratch or find one that works with Zishan and modify the comments. (That takes guts as a truly hack/mod putting in a LDO that creates more noise like some do is not despite sheep-like followings)

 

[EGO DEATH]

I've just read the whole thread.

What’s the usb-DAC mode like? The Z1 is rather bright sounding. For someone who is treble sensitive, should one look for “dark” gear or “warm” gear?, similarly does cold/analytical go hand in hand with “bright”?
What sort of mod is most fitting for someone with treble sensitivity from what I understood the ak4493 is bright. What about AK4490 vs AK4497?
What are the differences between the different dacs on the sound signature and quality, also same question regarding Op amps and low pass filters.

Ak4490 = Ak4490EQ correct?

What does: native lpf balance, non-single ended, “always adhere to the cpld + dual audio crystal solution to achieve I2S”, mean?

What’s a ”headless player"? The absence of a volume knob controller?

 

[citral23]

- There is no dac mode so far if I understand correctly. Might come with new firmware, might not.

- The brightness/ sound quality / signatures of modern dacs is completely subjective imo, as no measurement shows anything else than a flat response if correctly implemented (I'm not saying there is no difference, just that if it can't be measured it's subjective, so everyone will tell you something different, usually based on what they purchased being the best lol) Truth is the headphones / IEMs / Speakers make a LOT more difference than dacs. Even ear-tips lol. If you find a dac bright, pair it with warm IEMs / short ear-tips vOv

Ak4490 = Ak4490EQ correct? Yes.

What’s a ”headless player"? A player without screen (Z1, Z2)

Do you really have to write in purple/bold? It's quite agressive for the eyes of the reader :/

 

[HeyManslowdown97]

Common sense for iem charters. The resistance has NOTHING TO DO WITH how the player is chartered unless they are tested to be “underpowered”??! Different concept!

What “IvanTT” did is paralleled circuit of Zishan series DAC then used opa1622 as the universal buffers to get more juice in the Circuit and bypassed the stock lpf filters with his own design and then cited that he’s “seen” most daps that have Ohms below 10-0 ohms (more like read it). It is possible to lower the resistance if it’s stable to get more power but you must know what you are doing or accept the risk of what you are doing since this is a shortcut and is no substitute for high end headphone source designed with this in mind. You can ask lower the ufs in the ceramic caps near the resistance but again this is high risk of unstable.

The language in the description is important:

“most high-end audiophile headphone sources are well under 2 ohms.”

Again, the Zishan is a budget friendly MP3 player not a Ashton & kern or an Burson Audio Headphone amp with super sophisticated circuitry design, specs with better power supply!

Read the IPod influence compared to the Zishan’s 22ohms or 10ohms, it is well below the 120ohms standard! Unless you are talking about the low pass filter that has either a 390 Ohms or 470 ohms input resistance for the high impedance input of the op amps! You can perhaps lower thr output to get better results in the FET ac output??

Sourced by Nwguy (where the 1/8 came about)

“PSUEDO STANDARDS: A lot of professional gear has a 20 – 50 ohm headphone output impedance. I’m not aware of any that follows the 120 ohm IEC standard. Consumer gear tends to be in the range of 0 – 20 ohms and, with the exception of tube and certain other esoteric designs, most high-end audiophile headphone sources are well under 2 ohms.

THE iPOD INFLUENCE: Since the 120 ohm standard was published in 1996, music players advanced from lo-fi cassette tape and skipping portable CD players to the massive iPod craze. Apple helped take high quality audio portable and there are at least half a billion portable digital players in circulation not including phones. Nearly all portable music/media players now run from a single cell Li-Ion battery. These batteries only produce a bit over 3 volts which means you typically get less than 1 volt RMS of audio output driving typical headphones (sometimes much less). If you add 120 ohms to the output, and use typical portable headphones (nearly all of which are in the range of 16 –32 ohms) the headphones usually won’t play loud enough. And most of the battery power is wasted as heat in the 120 ohm resistor. Only a small fraction of the power makes it to the headphones. That’s a big problem in portable audio where getting the best battery life from ever smaller devices is critical. It’s much more efficient to deliver all the power to headphones.”

 

[EGO DEATH]

- There is no dac mode so far if I understand correctly. Might come with new firmware, might not.

- The brightness/ sound quality / signatures of modern dacs is completely subjective imo, as no measurement shows anything else than a flat response if correctly implemented (I'm not saying there is no difference, just that if it can't be measured it's subjective, so everyone will tell you something different, usually based on what they purchased being the best lol) Truth is the headphones / IEMs / Speakers make a LOT more difference than dacs. Even ear-tips lol. If you find a dac bright, pair it with warm IEMs / short ear-tips vOv

Ak4490 = Ak4490EQ correct? Yes.

What’s a ”headless player"? A player without screen (Z1, Z2)

Do you really have to write in purple/bold? It's quite agressive for the eyes of the reader :/

Thanks for the answers, I was looking on some rolling on yt and indeed to describe the sonic changes seems difficult, also they were so slight from what few videos I saw, not the best examples perhaps.

 

[cqtek]

Well, as I commented, I measured the frequency responses between the Burson Audio Playmate (Zout < 1), AGPTek Rocker (Zout < 1) and Zishan T1 (Zout = 10).
I think you should despise the differences above 15kHz, which I tell you should not be taken very seriously, as they are not consistent (I must say that I take the measurements with a microphone attached to a vinyl tube on a padded surface ...).
But the rest of the curve already gives a clear idea of what I want to comment: The FR of the sources with flat response and Zout < 1 Ohms, are practically the same. The FR of a source with flat response but with Zout = 10 Ohms, is not equal, for IEMs with low impedances.
And I insist again that I have not spoken at all if one sounds better than the other. These are just simple measures that reveal completely clear results.



Finally, a last test with another source whose Zout = 10 Ohms, as is the DAC Tempotec Serenade iDSD.
It is possible that the FR is more similar to the FR of the Playmate, but there are slight differences in bass and treble. I must say that these differences between Playmate and Serenade are audible, as the Serenade feels more aggressive at the top and more vigorous at the bottom.
But even so, there's something else in T1 that affects the lower zone, @citral23 may be right in his comments.



I also want to clarify that I am not against Zishan or this model. The first thing I love is the intention to make a font as modular and affordable as this one. But as an honest reviewer, I prefer to rely on measurements before making merely subjective value judgments. Measurements are irrefutable, opinions are blown away. That is why I am really worried about having presented erroneous measurements on the T1, relative to the measurements of the waveforms at 75Hz.

And, above all, I am not looking for any confrontation, much less do I want to argue with anyone. I respect all opinions. This is just a hobby for me.

Peace, colleagues.

 

[HeyManslowdown97]

@citral23 dude, do the the opa1622 mod and stripe the output caps and chart it.

@cqtek it’s all good. No progress comes without healthy confrontation keep doing your thing because you could be onto something!

 

[Ivan TT]

But even so, there's something else in T1 that affects the lower zone,

Yup, output caps are 220uF, assuming earphones are 16Ohm together with 10Ohm output resistors we get High Pass Filter, cut off frequency just under 30Hz. Convention is that filter will produce 3dB attenuation at the cutoff frequency, so this definitely has SOME effect.
Possible solution would be to increase output caps capacitance either by replacing them (not sure if anything of higher capacitance that would fit exists), or paralleling tantalum caps, even extra 100uF will make a difference.

 

[Ivan TT]

Measurements

By the way, just found an old measurement of FR of DSD Pro, green stock with output caps/resistors and purple without (plus a bit of impedance improving trickery ), using DIY IEM based on Bellsing 6 BA drivers, taken using UMIK-1.

 

[HeyManslowdown97]

Yup, output caps are 220uF, assuming earphones are 16Ohm together with 10Ohm output resistors we get High Pass Filter, cut off frequency just under 30Hz. Convention is that filter will produce 3dB attenuation at the cutoff frequency, so this definitely has SOME effect.
Possible solution would be to increase output caps capacitance either by replacing them (not sure if anything of higher capacitance that would fit exists), or paralleling tantalum caps, even extra 100uF will make a difference.

One the Zishan Dsd 799 Pro, You can put tantalum caps with low esr and they sound fantastic but it’s tricky to put with a lot of headaches fitting them on the board.

Tantalum caps with Low ESR really cuts down the noise and makes the audio signal stronger in my opinion than aluminum caps but I would imagine low esr caps would work just as well but fitting may be an issue!

I have 68uf 16v low esr tantalum caps (shock and vibrate tested) that Id like to replace the stock power caps but it’s a pain to get those suckers off but as a “reserve” with the lpf caps may help the system signal improve even more clear as well!

Didn’t know that you increasing the ufs in the hpf but will it make the slope steep or smooth? Would be interesting to experiment and chart this!

Funny thing happened by mistake I put 0805 10 uf instead of the stock value of 1uf near the resistance values and the player sounded more punchy but it did limit the soundstage a lot. It didn’t sound bad just preferred the stock values more depth. So you can experiment with those values along with resistance values as well. Haha



The lpf at 100uf is perfect for DSD (in my opinion). I also used tantalum 100uf with low esr with the the caps near the akm4497 and replaced the ceramic caps with >than 1% 10ufs 16volt And they sound fanatics. Experiment with the some wimps there too but it wasn’t stable. I like that the T1 has dip8s gives you more op amp rolling options in case you get bored with the certain sound. In the Zishan dsd it’s a real pain! Haha

Film caps can also be a great option just didn’t know to implement them in the scheme!

Good stuff guys!

 

[HeyManslowdown97]

By the way, just found an old measurement of FR of DSD Pro, green stock with output caps/resistors and purple without (plus a bit of impedance improving trickery ), using DYI IEM based on Bellsing 6 BA drivers, taken using UMIK-1.

The Green stock is actually better. There’s a slope where the 100 slope is and there’s a slight dip at around 2k to avoid harsh semblance. It’s actually tuned pretty good.

The only thing in question is to bump up the output meaning moving the line on par with burson and the other daps. But the filters are actually pretty close as far as how they are tuned! (80 dB levels on the chart)

If you hover around 0db you can potentially have digital clipping when tracks peak. Even cd redbook standard is slightly below at 0db.

I prefer the stock values with the smooth slope and slightly below -0db with with a slight dip at 2k.

You also have more dynamic range if it’s slightly below with headroom. The files themselves are where the eq should happen in my opinion but sound and format preference are a personal choice.

How you would eq in post music production. The same principles apply to op amps, filters, etc it’s just that circuitry is “analogue” with parts.