Zen and the art of anti-bacterial soap
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Nezer

Antibacterial soap... kills bacteria... bad karma?
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Whatever mod gave me that title...

One could and should consider antibacterial soap as self-defense.

Bad karma comes from the *intent* to do harm to anotehr living thing. Stepping on an ant by accident and torturing an ant with a can of liquid air are two totally different things from a karmatic perspective.

Killing bacteria on my body in an attempt to keep them from harming me is along the same vein. Ideally it would be best to avoid the harmful bacteria but that's just not feasible.

Further, the karmic consequences of killing bacteria vs. a bug which is arguably a higher-order creature is like comparing a Boostaroo to an EAR HP4.

Couple that with the intent of self defense and the karma isn't *as* bad as torturing a poor bug but it is bad karma.

As I've already started participating in sports and political talk here I have been wanting to start a religous thread, here it is.

Am I the only buddhist here or am I just the most insane one?
 
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Anders

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I largely agree with you about the philosophy. From a more practical point of view, I don't think it good to live in a too antiseptic environment because the immune defense system needs something to work with. Extensively killing bacteria with penicillin etc. also leads to resistance - so the bacteria fight back.

Yesterday I got this from Audio Adviser (copied below). Don't know if it is serious. In Sweden we have a "joke day" when the press usually have some fake news of the impossible kind and practical jokes are allowed. Do you have samething similar in US?
Or should one reason seriously on the microbes in LPs? I know that bacteria can live on nearly everyting, like oil and sulphide. But the risk to get those into LPs should be extremly close to zero.

From Audio Advisor:

Kill the Destructive Microbes Clinging to Your LPs
Moisture, dust, and air pollution collect in the grooves of your LPs. These contaminants are bad enough on their own, but they also provide food and a haven for bacteria and fungi which grow in your grooves. These microbial growths are difficult to get rid of.

Conventional record cleaning solutions are based on alcohol solvents and/or surfactants. These solutions may dissolve most oily and fatty contaminants. But they seldom dissolve microbial growths that leave behind grit which is harder than ever to remove. This grit can be burnished into your record grooves during playback and may also initiate fresh microbial attachment and growth.

Vinyl-Zyme Gold is an aqueous solution of preformed, natural enzymes. Its enzymatic action mimics the biological digestion process to break microbial attachment. Vinyl-Zyme Gold leaves your grooves cleansed, non-attractive to dust and other forms of aerial contamination, and non-supportive of microbial growth. Fungi and bacteria will not attach to and grow on a surface cleaned with Vinyl-Zyme.

For LPs, CDs, DVDs, Even Shellac Records
Writing in the Winter 2000 issue of Ultlimate Audio, Curtis Leeds reports the Vinyl-Zyme was able to "remove stains from a handful of discs where nothing I had used before - including most of the well-known cleaners and even the devil's own dreaded alcohol - had been successful."

Vinyl-Zyme Gold contains no alcohol, detergents, or other man-man chemicals, making it non-toxic and environmentally friendly. It is safe and effective on plastic and glass substrates that are not attacked by water. Vinyl-Zyme Gold is safe for everyday use on vinyl or shellac discs, as well as CDs and DVDs.

Choose 8 oz. regular strength spray. Or buy the 2 oz. concentrate that can be used to prepare both regular and extra strength mixes.
 
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Nezer

Antibacterial soap... kills bacteria... bad karma?
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LOL, that's good...

Here we have April Fools Day on April 1st. That's the day where you can take NOTHING seriously!
 
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grancasa

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Nezer,
First off, using anti-bacterial soap is probably doing more harm than good, not just for you but for all creatures. According to the chairman of the American Medical Association council on scientific affairs, "There is no evidence that they do any good and there is reason to suspect that they could contribute to a problem by helpling to create antibiotic-resistant bacteria." So your anti-bacterial soap is making me more sick. Sounds like bad karma to me.

I don't think because you don't intend to do harm you are in any way "karmicly" protected. If I slam my car into the front of a shopping mall, because I wanted to be like some movie star and see what happens, and someone dies, I think that on the karma level I get some demerits (or however it works), even though I didn't "intend" to kill anyone.
 
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Anders

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That was the name, April Fools Day. We also have it on April 1st in Sweden, but this ad made me wonder if it could be a different day in US.
 
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Nezer

Antibacterial soap... kills bacteria... bad karma?
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Quote:

Originally posted by grancasa
Nezer,
First off, using anti-bacterial soap is probably doing more harm than good, not just for you but for all creatures. According to the chairman of the American Medical Association council on scientific affairs, "There is no evidence that they do any good and there is reason to suspect that they could contribute to a problem by helpling to create antibiotic-resistant bacteria." So your anti-bacterial soap is making me more sick. Sounds like bad karma to me.

I don't think because you don't intend to do harm you are in any way "karmicly" protected. If I slam my car into the front of a shopping mall, because I wanted to be like some movie star and see what happens, and someone dies, I think that on the karma level I get some demerits (or however it works), even though I didn't "intend" to kill anyone.


Not when your cooking, unless you like food poisoning. I have enough problems with my GI system I certainly don't need that.

The previous Surgeon General was very much in support of washing hands with anti-bacterial soap. Not doing so spreads nasty bacteria and viruii like solmenela and the flu. While the flu generally isn't *that* bad for some people like the very young, the very old, those with immune system problems and those with asthma it's a risk that isn't necessarry. I have asthma and when I get the flu I am usually down for several months fighting all kinds of nasty lung problems.

When my grandfather was in the hospital undergoing chemo I washed my hands thouroghly in anti-bacterial soap. This was not for my benefit but for his.

I agree with you about the car analogy, though there was no intent to kill there certainly was intent to do harm. That is certainly bad. However, consider for a moment that you are driving along on the interstate at 80 MPH and someone just steps in front of you and they are killed. You certainly weren't looking for trouble and I don't think there is any negative karma there.

If you driving down the road and your tire blows out and run into that same shopping mall and someone is killed, again, no bad karma... Unless... There was gross negligance on you part (knowingly driving around on bad tires).

Fumigating your home for termites is a manner of self defense as they are putting you and your family in danger. However, it would propbably be better for your karma to tear down and rebuild the house.

Karma is very imprtant to the buddhist belief system as karma may not only ripen in this life but further down the road in otehr lives.

Sometimes it's better to take the bad karma though.

There was a story once of a man who say a tiger about to kill a family of jackals or something. The man threw himself in front of the tiger to stop this act and commited suicide. Though this was bad karma to him he felt it was better than letting the tiger take more lives than his own. Because he gave his life and spared teh lvies of others this certainly wasn't as bad as jumping off a cliff because of selfish pety reasons.

Of course, one could also state that the tiger, after finishing off the man, wen't after the family anyway...

Certainly acts of stupidity have to count against you at some level.

Does a Christian that kills and tortures dogs his whole life still go to heaven just because he let Christ into his heart and yet didn't show compasion to other beings? Of course, to truly allow Christ into your heart one would *HAVE* to show compassion but does this compassion apply to other beings besides humans? Cats? Moths? Bacteria??

What about the immunologists that kill mice as part of thier labrotory work?

Yes, I think about some wierd ****.
 
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kerelybonto

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How does the conception of 'orders' of life work in Buddhism? Personally, I think it's a bit arrogant to think your life is more valuable than a bacterium's.

kerelybonto.
 
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kelly

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Quote:

Originally posted by kerelybonto
How does the conception of 'orders' of life work in Buddhism? Personally, I think it's a bit arrogant to think your life is more valuable than a bacterium's.


I think it is arrogant of us to even consider our lives as seperate from the bacterium's, but I have a somewhat unique religious outlook.
 
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Nezer

Antibacterial soap... kills bacteria... bad karma?
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Quote:

Originally posted by kerelybonto
How does the conception of 'orders' of life work in Buddhism? Personally, I think it's a bit arrogant to think your life is more valuable than a bacterium's.

kerelybonto.


No offense, but my life is more valuable to me than yours. I would be willing to bet you feel the same about me.
 
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Nezer

Antibacterial soap... kills bacteria... bad karma?
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Quote:

Originally posted by kelly

I think it is arrogant of us to even consider our lives as seperate from the bacterium's, but I have a somewhat unique religious outlook.


Do tell, I'm quite curious.
 
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kerelybonto

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Yes, of course I expect you to feel that way, Nezer. And, to me, mine is more valuable.

But I'm talking without the 'to me' in there. In the grand scheme of things, why the hell does your life matter? Mine? A bacterium's? They all seem about the same to me. ...

kerelybonto
 
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Nezer

Antibacterial soap... kills bacteria... bad karma?
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Quote:

Originally posted by kerelybonto
Yes, of course I expect you to feel that way, Nezer. And, to me, mine is more valuable.

But I'm talking without the 'to me' in there. In the grand scheme of things, why the hell does your life matter? Mine? A bacterium's? They all seem about the same to me. ...

kerelybonto


In the grand scheme of things my life *doesn't* matter. As a matter of fact life is a farce anyway, a veil we put before ourself in order to explain ourself. Besides, *everything* is impermanent... me, you, head-fi, bacteria, life, and even death.

With that in mind, karma is just some set of rules or boundaries we impose upon ourselves... All the good and all the bad are all brought on by the 'self' anyhow.

Glad to see I'm not the only freak around here that thinks about **** like this. :wink:
 
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Mr.PD

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So, let me see if I got this right. Good Karma and Bad Karma are believed by Buddhist's to be a fact of life? That is to say that Karma actually exists and is real, as much real as a thing like Karma can be.

I was raised in a strict christian family. I have always beleived in Karma. I think some of the things I deal with now are from things I did when I was younger, metephysically speaking.

This is a very interesting thread. Please keep it going, I would like to see more on Buddhism.
 
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Nezer

Antibacterial soap... kills bacteria... bad karma?
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It's very real, at least as real as the ground we walk upon...

But the caveat about karma is it may not come to fruition in this life. As a matter of fact karma could determine your next life.

For more about buddhism check out www.tricycle.com.

Buddhism comes in many forms and I have even heard of christian buddhists. Buddhism is almost a borderline religion/philosophy.

There is a belief that enlightenment comes thorugh meditiation and reflection on the self.
 
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