[GreenBow]

A cable can be designed to be a better conductor certainly however only when sensitive equipment and other factors are taken into consideration would any differences be noticeable.

Belkin usb cables usually fo a good job.

I think this is the issue. I mean some cables are better at conducting.
 
What the hi-fi world quote as the issue, is jitter. In fact I just noticed an article in HiFi Choice about just this. They describe how jitter and signal degradation causes loss in sound quality. However I am still not entirely convinced.
 
I think part of the issue is that they test equipment, with all adjoining equipment being high quality. I.E. they will use an awesome DAC, amp, and speakers, or headphones. They may well then hear differences. However many people with humble equipment won't have the definition to pick out changes between cables.
 
What irritates me more, is that it is unlikely that errors caused by jitter, will appear in the same places. Or it also means there must be quite a lot of jitter. If a single cable can make a system sound overall more dynamic and clearer, cheap cables must be absolute junk. Add to this that I bought a DAC which is asynchronous to reduce jitter. Now I feel lost in it all.
 
Anyway all that said I will have one more go at A-B this cable with a stock cable, this week.

 

[interpolate]

Yes, I agree with this audiophile quality cables being a bit of a myth (aka buyers market). Although I was using a generic RCA-Phono cable with my FiiO DAP and although the sound was good, I thought I would use a branded quality cable in it's place. The sound output is louder and cleaner using the same setup which means in some cases upgrading cables can make a difference.
 
Jitter happens at the stages before digital-to-analogue which means any differences will be small and indistinguishable to the casual listener. In a heavily loaded USB hub with different devices demanding various resources, there is potential for a timing error which is why sound interfaces are better left on their own bus if possible.
 
In any circuit you are going to introduce some form of roundtrip latency whether you want it or not, the question is whether it is really detrimental to the overall sound or even if you are only one that cares.

 

[dvw]

A cable can be designed to be a better conductor certainly however only when sensitive equipment and other factors are taken into consideration would any differences be noticeable.

Belkin usb cables usually fo a good job.

 
If you consider jitter and bit error to be major contributing factor, then you don't even really needs to AB the cable. Bit error and jitter make very distinctive sound. It is not subtle at all. No need for "sensitive" equipment. it is a myth.

 

[GreenBow]

   
If you consider jitter and bit error to be major contributing factor, then you don't even really needs to AB the cable. Bit error and jitter make very distinctive sound. It is not subtle at all. No need for "sensitive" equipment. it is a myth.

I never heard an opinion say jitter has a distinct sound. This Hi-Fi Choice article says,
"Small amounts of jitter tend to blur the stereo image. Making it hard to pinpoint instruments in the soundstage as clearly. More jitter shrinks the stereo image. In worst cases jitter can change the whole tonal character of the sound."
 
I have been googling jitter. I am going to keep doing until I understand enough to try to decide whether it matters to my system. Unless I see a reliable scientific author doing the information, I will reserve judgement.
 
However this sort of thing seems to be cropping up a lot.
"CABLE JITTER: Cables can “smear” digital signals by attenuating the highest frequencies."
http://nwavguy.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/jitter-does-it-matter.html
 
Actual papers written on jitter.
http://www.altmann.haan.de/jitter/pdfextern/jitter92.pdf
 
http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Measurements-in-Digital-Audio1.pdf
 
Have to say though I still can not be sure I can for sure hear any change in the music. I did once today just have a moment thinking the better cable sounded brighter or clearer. I was listening on the standard cable, and stopped the track mid play. When I plugged in the audio quality USB cable I thought, "Oh wow OK". However I went back and A-B the particular part of a track and saw nothing. However that could be explained by the fact that data was freshly sent.

 

[arnyk]

 
I never heard an opinion say jitter has a distinct sound. This Hi-Fi Choice article says,
"Small amounts of jitter tend to blur the stereo image. Making it hard to pinpoint instruments in the soundstage as clearly. More jitter shrinks the stereo image. In worst cases jitter can change the whole tonal character of the sound."
 
I have been googling jitter. I am going to keep doing until I understand enough to try to decide whether it matters to my system. Unless I see a reliable scientific author doing the information, I will reserve judgement.
 
However this sort of thing seems to be cropping up a lot.
"CABLE JITTER: Cables can “smear” digital signals by attenuating the highest frequencies."
http://nwavguy.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/jitter-does-it-matter.html
 
Actual papers written on jitter.
http://www.altmann.haan.de/jitter/pdfextern/jitter92.pdf
 
http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Measurements-in-Digital-Audio1.pdf
 
Have to say though I still can not be sure I can for sure hear any change in the music. I did once today just have a moment thinking the better cable sounded brighter or clearer. I was listening on the standard cable, and stopped the track mid play. When I plugged in the audio quality USB cable I thought, "Oh wow OK". However I went back and A-B the particular part of a track and saw nothing. However that could be explained by the fact that data was freshly sent.

 
 
I have a lot of experience with measuring and conducting listening reliable listening tests related to jitter. As a result I can answer most reasonable questions about it.
 
Jitter isn't just one thing and so its sonic effects are far from being consistent. Jitter is FM distortion, so its sound is dependent on both the signal being modulated and the nature of the modulation itself. IOW piano sound that is jittered by a low frequency sounds one way (watery) and a cymbal that is jittered by a high frequency sounds receives a completely different kind of change (possibly noise).
 
For another example vibrato is an example of FM distortion, and what person who is knowledgeable about music would say any of the things bout vibrato that you have found in your readings?
 
From Wikipedia & Google:
 
"Vibrato is a musical effect consisting of a regular, pulsating change of pitch. It is used to add expression to vocal and instrumental music.Vibrato is typically characterised in terms of two factors: the amount of pitch variation ("extent of vibrato") and the speed with which the pitch is varied ("rate of vibrato")."

 

[upstateguy]

  Yes, I agree with this audiophile quality cables being a bit of a myth (aka buyers market). Although I was using a generic RCA-Phono cable with my FiiO DAP and although the sound was good, I thought I would use a branded quality cable in it's place. The sound output is louder and cleaner using the same setup which means in some cases upgrading cables can make a difference.
 
Jitter happens at the stages before digital-to-analogue which means any differences will be small and indistinguishable to the casual listener. In a heavily loaded USB hub with different devices demanding various resources, there is potential for a timing error which is why sound interfaces are better left on their own bus if possible.
 
In any circuit you are going to introduce some form of roundtrip latency whether you want it or not, the question is whether it is really detrimental to the overall sound or even if you are only one that cares.

 
I heard a similar thing changing the mini to mini cable from my Pico dac to the O2 amp.
 
I needed a longer cable at one point and switched to an unused "flat" cable I had purchased along with the round, better looking shorter cable I was currently using.  It sounded louder (and therefore cleaner).  I switched back and forth a few times to see if the change persisted.  It did, so I stayed with the flat cable.  Funny thing is that I'm pretty sure I tried all the mini to mini cables when I bought them and I don't remember noticing any difference in loudness.
 
Illusion?  Maybe.

 

[GreenBow]

Anyway I carried on reading. I am not really any clearer. The issue is that however much I try I can not hear that my audio is suffering from jitter.
 
Sometimes I think the Furutech Formula 2 cable I have, transports me, and the music more. However when I go back and A-B it again with the stock cable I struggle to hear difference. I am not sure I hear better dynamics or extra bass, which this expensive cable is meant to have. (Yet sometimes I occasionally think I do. Like @upstateguysaid, is it illusion/placebo maybe.)
 
The problem is that I listen to one track with the audio quality cable. Then I listen to the old cable. Then I come back and listen the quality one again. Then back to the old. By this time I am fatigued with whatever track. Initially I may sometimes think the better cable is better. By four or even six listens later, I become less interested and convinced of no difference.
 
The presiding issue though, is that for nearly £40 I should be convinced. This is the review. http://www.whathifi.com/furutech/formula-2/review However as I said before the kit they tested on is far superior to mine. They are using the Audiolab M-DAC which is an astonishing DAC. My Meridian Explorer is vastly lacking next to the M-DAC. Plus they will be using some very good amping and speakers, or at least better Grado than my SR225e. Their soundstage and clarity will be much easier to see changes in, were there any.
 
 
@ arnyk, I'm sorry but you appear to have misunderstood jitter. Unless I have completely misunderstood what you meant. Jitter is caused by clock timing. Neither do I understand why you have introduced vibrato.

 

[Steve Eddy]

What seems to be overlooked in all of this is that the only place that jitter counts is at the output of the DAC chip when it makes the conversion.

Has anyone shown that different USB cables cause any meaningful change in jitter at the output of the DAC chip?

se

 

[nick_charles]

What seems to be overlooked in all of this is that the only place that jitter counts is at the output of the DAC chip when it makes the conversion.

Has anyone shown that different USB cables cause any meaningful change in jitter at the output of the DAC chip?

se

 
To the best of my knowledge no, and I have looked far and wide... also to date nobody has ever credibly demonstrated that even digital kit that is total bollocks jitter wise is distinguishable from anything else on jitter alone even with femtosecond clocks and nuclear reactor powered reclockers

 

[GreenBow]

What seems to be overlooked in all of this is that the only place that jitter counts is at the output of the DAC chip when it makes the conversion.

Has anyone shown that different USB cables cause any meaningful change in jitter at the output of the DAC chip?

se

You don't really get jitter out. You get an altered sound wave out, from jitter into the DAC. That is precisely what positive reviews of so called audio quality cables are saying.
 
There is also the issue that some state that errors occur due to reflections and interference and so on. I.E. not all down to jitter.

 

[Bibo]

 
I never heard an opinion say jitter has a distinct sound. This Hi-Fi Choice article says,
"Small amounts of jitter tend to blur the stereo image. Making it hard to pinpoint instruments in the soundstage as clearly. More jitter shrinks the stereo image. In worst cases jitter can change the whole tonal character of the sound."
 
I have been googling jitter. I am going to keep doing until I understand enough to try to decide whether it matters to my system. Unless I see a reliable scientific author doing the information, I will reserve judgement.
 
However this sort of thing seems to be cropping up a lot.
"CABLE JITTER: Cables can “smear” digital signals by attenuating the highest frequencies."
http://nwavguy.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/jitter-does-it-matter.html
 
Actual papers written on jitter.
http://www.altmann.haan.de/jitter/pdfextern/jitter92.pdf
 
http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Measurements-in-Digital-Audio1.pdf
 
Have to say though I still can not be sure I can for sure hear any change in the music. I did once today just have a moment thinking the better cable sounded brighter or clearer. I was listening on the standard cable, and stopped the track mid play. When I plugged in the audio quality USB cable I thought, "Oh wow OK". However I went back and A-B the particular part of a track and saw nothing. However that could be explained by the fact that data was freshly sent.

The Meridian Explorer you are using is working in asynchronous mode, that means it has its own clock. So cable jitter can and does not apply here.

 

[cjl]

   
 
The standard for Bit Error Rate on a USB link is from 1 bit error in every ten to the tenth bits to one 1 bit error in every 10 to the 12th data bits.
 
A 44/16 stereo audio link operates at approximately 1.4 milliion bits per second or  1.4 times 10 to the sixth bits.  Using the lower standard, that means one error bit every 7070 seconds of operation or just about two hours.  Using the higher standard increases that by a factor of 100 to one error every 200 hours or just over every 8 days. Due to data formatting overhead, these numbers are a little higher than actual but are a good indication of the size of the alleged problem.

That BER spec sounds like it's for a standard USB link with error correction, rather than for USB audio. Are you sure that's typical for non-ECC usb audio links?
 
(Admittedly, I wouldn't expect the BER on a USB link to be bad enough to make any audible difference, but still, in the interest of pedantry and correctness...)

 

[nick_charles]

  That BER spec sounds like it's for a standard USB link with error correction, rather than for USB audio. Are you sure that's typical for non-ECC usb audio links?
 
(Admittedly, I wouldn't expect the BER on a USB link to be bad enough to make any audible difference, but still, in the interest of pedantry and correctness...)

 
The measured BER for a olde DACMAGIC DAC on USB came out as 1ppm so 1 bit per million. Red book requires 1411200 bits per second so 1 bit out of 16 every 44,100 samples is wrong which seems like a lot so a blip of duration 1/44,100 of a second, Question:  even if it was a high order bit would we be able to detect it as it would last only 0.023 of a millisecond and a good sample would overwrite it in our audio memory damn soon?

 

[arnyk]

   
The measured BER for a olde DACMAGIC DAC on USB came out as 1ppm so 1 bit per million. Red book requires 1411200 bits per second so 1 bit out of 16 every 44,100 samples is wrong which seems like a lot so a blip of duration 1/44,100 of a second, Question:  even if it was a high order bit would we be able to detect it as it would last only 0.023 of a millisecond and a good sample would overwrite it in our audio memory damn soon?

 
Depends on what sort of signal was missing the bits. Some signals are far more diagnostic for making missing bits audible than others.

 

[Steve Eddy]

To the best of my knowledge no, and I have looked far and wide... also to date nobody has ever credibly demonstrated that even digital kit that is total bollocks jitter wise is distinguishable from anything else on jitter alone even with femtosecond clocks and nuclear reactor powered reclockers

Thanks, Nick!

se