Yes Virgina, There is a difference in USB cables
Jul 11, 2015 at 8:23 AM Post #211 of 279
  from totally ludicrous to absolutely insane, so you're saying we should expect many audiophiles to still make that claim.
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More likely that they will swallow the claim,; hook, line, and sinker when provided by a vendor as a justification for a purchase decision.
 
Jul 11, 2015 at 9:01 AM Post #212 of 279
   
 
The standard for Bit Error Rate on a USB link is from 1 bit error in every ten to the tenth bits to one 1 bit error in every 10 to the 12th data bits.
 
A 44/16 stereo audio link operates at approximately 1.4 milliion bits per second or  1.4 times 10 to the sixth bits.  Using the lower standard, that means one error bit every 7070 seconds of operation or just about two hours.  Using the higher standard increases that by a factor of 100 to one error every 200 hours or just over every 8 days. Due to data formatting overhead, these numbers are a little higher than actual but are a good indication of the size of the alleged problem.
 
In short the presumption that a listener will actually hear a bit error on a standards-compliant USB link ranges from totally ludicrous to absolutely insane.

 
The admirable Jim LeSurf at St Andrews University did some measurements on a DAGMAGIC 100 DAC using the USB connection, he found a consistent actual error rate of 1 part per million (1 in in 10 to the 6th), though admittedly the DAC mentioned had unusually poor measured performance in modern terms on USB when SP measured it,,,
 
Jul 11, 2015 at 9:55 AM Post #213 of 279
 
Jesus Christ. I have an MSc in Music Tech: no it wouldn't.


Hope you didn't actually pay anyone for that degree.

se

Sears had a special, get one free with a pair of cargo shorts.....
 
   
The admirable Jim LeSurf at St Andrews University did some measurements on a DAGMAGIC 100 DAC using the USB connection, he found a consistent actual error rate of 1 part per million (1 in in 10 to the 6th), though admittedly the DAC mentioned had unusually poor measured performance in modern terms on USB when SP measured it,,,

 
Poor performance aside, would the DACMAGIC  still null out?
 
Jul 11, 2015 at 11:15 AM Post #215 of 279
  Well my Furutech Formula 2 USB cable just arrived. I plugged it in and I can hear more straight off.
 
The cable should improve in time as it runs in. At the moment stuff like cymbal taps are clearer. Chimes sound ore like chimes than chime sounding unclear noises.
 
It's not a complete sound signature changing, because the source, and headphones are still the same. However on day one it is enough to make me feel I don't want to return the item.
 
The point is that 1 and 0 going along the cable do get corrupted, or become indefinable. When the data is complied by the DAC some is missing, but the music can be reproduced still.
 
My Grado SR225e and Meridian Explorer are getting a wiff of hi-fi about them now.
 
(NB Anyone thinking of making a comment about the thread being old - do I look like I care.)


OK I am reserving judgement, going back on what I said, and not sure at the moment.
 
I realised today that when I got the cable yesterday, I had made a mistake. I had put my headphones on the wrong way round. Rather than going straight to A-B testing, I played my favourite tracks at the moment; music I knew well. I was literally hearing stuff in the right hand side which I had not heard so clearly before. Totally because it was previously more orientated to the left.
 
What has me ultimately confused, is that I felt over-all the signature sounded more dynamic. I think maybe because I was listening more analytically rather that just enjoying music. What I now find bizarre is I used to think my set up got congested when the going go tough. I.E. when there was a lot going on, which is understandable at the price. I thought the new cable cured that. Yet now my basic stock cable doesn't sound congested.
 
Btw, clearly I would not expect to hear an entirely different sound signature with the same DAC and headphones.
 
Anyway now I have to go back and A-B this.
 
[NB. I was 100% convinced of better audio with speaker cable years ago, and analogue interconnects. I mean, all sorts of stuff happened. Therefor I am more than prepared to give a USB cable a chance. I bought from Amazon so I am free to try the product and return if not happy.] 
 
I mean I can't say more at this stage.
 
With ref to stuff people have added since I first posted:
  1. Jitter is one thing that has me considering there is merit in the case for a quality cable. I was as sceptical as everyone here previously. However parts of lost data would affect end result. The argument is about how much data is lost. (An example of transferring a word document shows that checking is done so you that's why documents copy perfectly.)
  2. Lost data would not result in complete dropout unless entire steams of packets are lost. E.g. like when a digital radio loses signal.
  3. I think the strength in argument for why small amounts of lost data can be heard is this. Our hearing and brains are incredibly fine tuned. By definition we can hear change in pitch because we can detect vibration up 20,000Hz (when young). In other words we can pick out differences of data coming where the impulse rate is one impulse per 0.00005 seconds.
  4. Follow that with the example of a signal to the brain where the impulse are 0.0001. What has happened is the pitch of the signal has gone from 20,000Hz to 10,000Hz. Compare that sensitivity to a moving picture. We only need 24 frames per second to see a moving picture. 
 
I wish I could add more at this stage, but I can't. I am music fatigued right now from listening yesterday. I guess I'd be better coming back to this after some gaming and a day out.
 
(I would swear I heard a difference yesterday when I did a little A-B. However now I am not prepared to commit to that. I wonder also if my DAC and headphone kit are not enough to pick up difference.) 
 
Jul 11, 2015 at 11:34 AM Post #216 of 279
any advice on a relatively cheap usb card to record signals? I only have a laptop, the integrated crap doesn't even have a proper line input and measures worst than pretty much anything I ever attempted to measure/record. something that could stay clear up to -100db would be fine for almost anything I use(and I just don't care about anything past that anyway).
 
thx.
 
Jul 11, 2015 at 11:36 AM Post #217 of 279
  any advice on a relatively cheap usb card to record signals? I only have a laptop, the integrated crap doesn't even have a proper line input and measures worst than pretty much anything I ever attempted to measure/record. something that could stay clear up to -100db would be fine for almost anything I use(and I just don't care about anything past that anyway).
 
thx.

 
On the DIY forum there seems to be some good recent commentary about the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2. 
 
Jul 11, 2015 at 3:08 PM Post #219 of 279
 
   
Poor performance aside, would the DACMAGIC  still null out?

 
bad usb measurements
 
Though bad I'm not sure the noise/distortion would be in any way audible, the jitter is relatively high but worst sidebands are still only at -100db 

 
If the noise/distortion/jitter is not audible then do we would need any better specs than what the DACMAGIC provides?
 
btw, would you know off hand what usb transport chip the DACMAGIC is using?
 
  by the way...who's Virgina?

 
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Jul 11, 2015 at 3:59 PM Post #220 of 279
   
If the noise/distortion/jitter is not audible then do we would need any better specs than what the DACMAGIC provides?
 
btw, would you know off hand what usb transport chip the DACMAGIC is using?
 
 
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Yes, afaik it is the C-media CM108, but this is the old dacmagic not the dacmagic plus with headphone amp
 
Jul 11, 2015 at 4:53 PM Post #221 of 279
I notice my comments in post 215 have made a post that is large. Sorry I suppose and I hope I have not made a TLDR post. However I felt it important to be open and completely honest given my change in stance. (That is while judgement is reserved.)  I mean, there is no shame in being wrong or correcting yourself is there. Thus it's better to be honest with folk that may be considering buying a USB cable. After all that's part of the point of forums, to inform and help and share ideas and information.
 
After all (my) post 200 left it sounding clearly that an audio quality USB works. It would not be right to leave that impression as I was in error at the time. I am in undecided territory right now, and not prepared to write off the USB cable yet.
 
Jul 11, 2015 at 7:58 PM Post #223 of 279
  I notice my comments in post 215 have made a post that is large. Sorry I suppose and I hope I have not made a TLDR post. However I felt it important to be open and completely honest given my change in stance. (That is while judgement is reserved.)  I mean, there is no shame in being wrong or correcting yourself is there. Thus it's better to be honest with folk that may be considering buying a USB cable. After all that's part of the point of forums, to inform and help and share ideas and information.
 
After all (my) post 200 left it sounding clearly that an audio quality USB works. It would not be right to leave that impression as I was in error at the time. I am in undecided territory right now, and not prepared to write off the USB cable yet.


no problem at all for me, it's not like you will find many all knowing beings on headfi. well, a great many believe they are, but that's the difference between facts and opinions ^_^.
it's normal to be wrong and even better to be able to admit it.
 
 
 
and about usb cables, as always there is probably no black or white answer. it's possible that some are bad enough to change the sound, just like it might be possible that some design of DAC input would improve with specific cable/shielding/...
but I believe it's safe to say that under normal circumstances with a not too long USB cable, there is no reason to even care. I personally would look for a DAC with independent power supply, or with a real async USB before spending money on cables. but as it happens I have zero troubles with an odac that has neither of those stuff, so my experience with USB makes it all seem infinitely irrelevant. 
 
Jul 12, 2015 at 12:45 PM Post #224 of 279
A cable can be designed to be a better conductor certainly however only when sensitive equipment and other factors are taken into consideration would any differences be noticeable.

Belkin usb cables usually fo a good job.
 
Jul 12, 2015 at 3:25 PM Post #225 of 279
 
   
If the noise/distortion/jitter is not audible then do we would need any better specs than what the DACMAGIC provides?
 
btw, would you know off hand what usb transport chip the DACMAGIC is using?
 
 
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Yes, afaik it is the C-media CM108, but this is the old dacmagic not the dacmagic plus with headphone amp

 
Thanks !
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