YAFirstTimeDIYerT: CMoy panasonic pot only plays on left channel
Feb 15, 2008 at 9:29 PM Post #16 of 62
Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Very interesting--thanks for clearing me up! I hadn't heard that 0.1 uF was the typical maximum limit for decoupling, or maybe I had my values confused with those of the input capacitors (0.1 uF minimum, higher is better to avoid low bass roll-off).

I'd heard that film capacitors were better than ceramics for decoupling due to higher linearity in the audio range, whereas ceramic capacitors had better high-frequency linearity, but I might be misremembering what I've read. Either way, it's nice to know that ceramic isn't a bad choice.

Just curious... When would it be recommended to use additional decoupling capacitors?



I'm far from an EE, so take my words with a grain of salt. It's mostly what I've been able to glean from publications outside the audio field, since I don't trust anyone's opinion there to be anything more than 'it sounds better to me', which I personally don't put a lot of stock in.

Decoupling capacitors exist to make the power supply impedance as low as possible across as wide a frequency range as the part will be operating at. As you should already know, wires and PCB traces have parasitic inductance which presents a relatively high impedance to fast signals. A high impedance means that an instantaneous current draw on the pin will cause a voltage fluctuation we want to avoid. Placing a decoupling capacitor near the part counters those effects with a small amount of capacitance to stabilize the voltage at the pin when a fast load transient is encountered. DC and slower signals suffer much less from inductive parasitics, and decoupling caps generally have little effect at these frequencies; the power supply or bulk capacitors can respond quickly enough.

As a result, you want the fastest cap possible so that it can respond more quickly and keep the voltage sag during a load transient as short as possible. More uF doesn't help with this. Linearity isn't too big a deal either since the goal is not to pass a signal linearly, but to respond quickly. A ceramic cap, while nonlinear, should still respond fairly well far outside the effective range of a film cap (well into the GHz). A larger value than necessary can only have a detrimental effect, the cap only needs to be large enough to respond to the transient while the power supply catches up. It just needs to counter the frequency response of the power supply lines and the power supply itself, so it's only working in the MHz range, where small values are king. Generally small currents are involved as well, so a large capacitance is not required.

From what I've read about digital decoupling, 0.1uF as a standard value is a holdout from the 70s when not much was known about the physics of complex power supply networks. Most of the papers I've seen suggest that this value is much too large, especially when there are lots of them across the same power supply rails.

At low frequencies like audio, this isn't really important though. 0.1uF caps at each part is a fine solution, but I don't see a reason to go any larger than that. 0.01uF should perform just as well.

Some reading material if you're interested, this is a complex field when we're talking about GHz digital signals:

Electronic Design Welcome
http://download.cypress.com.edgesuit..._an1032_12.pdf
Decoupling
 
Feb 19, 2008 at 4:10 AM Post #17 of 62
Very interesting, error401. Thanks for the info.
smily_headphones1.gif


@LazyAzN, I've added a detailed parts list to the first page of my CMoy thread... If you haven't ordered parts yet, consider giving it a look.
 
Feb 23, 2008 at 7:39 PM Post #18 of 62
Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Very interesting, error401. Thanks for the info.
smily_headphones1.gif


@LazyAzN, I've added a detailed parts list to the first page of my CMoy thread... If you haven't ordered parts yet, consider giving it a look.



(copied from my excel spreadsheet)
Actually, I ordered a while ago... lol...
DIP-8 IC Socket IC SOCKET .300 8 DIP GOLD AE10034-ND
Volume Control (Potentiometer)POT 10K OHM 12MM HORZ MET BUSHINP2U4103-ND
Volume KnobKNOB CLR/MATTE.50"DIA .250"SHAFT226-3100-ND
Power SwitchSWITCH TOGGLE SPDT 6A SLDR 5PCS360-1788-ND
Battery ClipsSTRAP BATTERY 9V I-STYLE 4"LEAD2238K-ND
LED HolderBEZEL LED PANEL 3MM BLACK NYLON67-1331-ND
Stereo Mini Jack (3.5mm)Calrad Electronics CAL-30-493A 3.5mm Stereo Panel jackCAL-30-493A
Power Indicator LEDLED 3MM GREEN DIFFUSED160-1710-ND
ProtoboardMultipurpose PC Board with 417 Holes 276-0150
Capacitors (C1)CAP 470UF 25V ELECT VZ RADIAL493-1304-ND
Input Capacitors (C2)CAP POLYPROPYLENE .47UF 50V 2%P3933-ND
Rail Splitter (R1)IC 1/2 RAIL VIRTUAL GND TO-92296-1994-ND
Film Resistor (R2)RES METAL FILM 100K OHM 1/4W 1%P100KCACT-ND
Gain Resistor (R3, Gain 6)RES 2.00K OHM 1/4W 1% METAL FILM2.00KXBK
Film Resistor (R4)RES 10.0K OHM 1/4W 1% METAL FILM10.0KXBK-ND
Film Resistor (R5) RES 47.5 OHM 1/4W 1% METAL FILM 47.5XBK-ND
RES 100 OHM 1/4W 1% METAL FILM100XBK
Film Resistor (RLED)RES 4.75K OHM 1/4W 1% METAL FILM4.75KXBK-ND
Op-AmpIC DUAL PRECISION OPAMP 8-DIPOPA2228PA-ND
Ceramic ResistorCAP .10UF 50V CERAMIC X7R 10%BC1084CT-ND
SolderRosin Core Solder (2.5 Oz.)64-005
Desoldering BraidDesoldering Braid 64-2090
HeatshrinkNTE Electronics NTE-47-20248-CL 3/32 x 48 H/S 3/32IN 48IN CLEARNTE-47-20248-CL
Wire75-Ft. UL-Recognized Hookup Wire (22AWG)278-1224
Altoid TinAltoid Tin Spearmint
Microcontroller (robot)IC MCU AVR 32K FLASH 40-DIPATMEGA324P-20PU-ND
BatteryEverready 9VEVEN22
3.5mm PlugCanare Corp CAN-F-12 CANARE 3.5MM TRS MINI PHONE PLUG STEREO CAN10154


So for just a mini update:...

I attempted to build it last night, but it ended up down right horrible. I sheared one side of the protoboard with a box cutter, and pop, there goes one useable side of the protoboard. But the other was sort of useable. Because my 30w soldering iron's tip is so huge, the solder kept clinging to the iron rather than the component (even when the component was heated). Thus, everything was mayhem. I even broke my TLE2426CLP (those pins downright SUCK, one broke, but I guess it's my fault partially). I also screwed up the orientation of the capacitors too...

Today though, I decided to buy another protoboard and a 15w Radio Shack soldering iron. To say the least, so far it's going much much better. No problems so far soldering the jumpers. But I know I'm going to have fun desoldering everything else on the other board to place on this board lol.

But one word thing I regret is getting the C2 capacitors (CAP POLYPROPYLENE .47UF 50V 2%). Those things are MASSSIVELY HUGEEEEEEEEEE.... So huge they barely could fit in the holes. If there were smaller ones out there I probably wouldn't have bought them...

I'll probably take pictures to remember not to use a 30w iron for something this small. But yeap, at least I have enough parts for "two"!
 
Feb 24, 2008 at 9:56 AM Post #20 of 62
Quote:

Originally Posted by FooTemps /img/forum/go_quote.gif
lol, you need better tips mike.


Heh, not like you're building one anytime soon
tongue.gif
...

Anywho... yeah, the CMOY "somewhat works," so I'm in dire need of help figuring out what is going on (without hopefully using a multimeter since I don't have one). In bullet form:

- Clicking which goes to the song, other than that nothing.
- Sometimes I can make out the lyrics being played slightly since it's faint.
- Left doesn't work unless the pot is near maximum
- By shorting C2 to R4, R5, or directly to the out, I can hear everything fine in the right, but not the left. (Which somewhat proves the power is fine)
- My switch doesn't turn off the sound either way, so I'm wondering if the on-on SPDT switch means that one wire goes into the middle (to be off???
confused.gif
)

Pictures to see if you guys spot any shorts (yes the right side did get a copper wire stuck, but it SHOULDN'T effect the overall amp since it's in a hole that's not needed. and yes... my soldering skills suck.)



 
Feb 24, 2008 at 10:17 AM Post #21 of 62
Whoa, those input capacitors are huge... It's advisable to go higher than 0.1uF to avoid bass roll-off, but I guess 0.47uF 50V is probably overkill. Guess I'll go revise my list, since I recommended a very similar part.
redface.gif


Depending on your playback device, you may not need C2 at all, in which case you could jumper the pads.

Even the 0.1uF input capacitors recommended by Tangent are somewhat large. Here's a picture from my Tangent CMoy build during the assembly stage:

scale.jpg
 
Feb 24, 2008 at 8:18 PM Post #22 of 62
Yeah, but I don't think the C2 is the issue here... I just shorted the r.out to pin 1 of the op-amp, and it works perfectly fine. When it gets to pin 3, 5, or 7, then it begins to have problems (if going L, R, L, R...)...

But what's weird is that I also realize... this thing doesn't even need to run on battery to hear the music/clicking... Does that help in findiing out where the thing is messed up? So is this a voltage problem? It may or may not... since it's just the line in going thru C2.
 
Feb 24, 2008 at 9:05 PM Post #23 of 62
You really need to buy a multimeter in order to make some very basic checks on the Cmoy board. Are you getting 1/2 of total battery voltage from V+ and V- to GND? Since you veered off the Tangent board layout (as pictured above in infinitesymphony's post), I am not sure I can be of much help.
 
Feb 24, 2008 at 10:02 PM Post #25 of 62
Quote:

Originally Posted by breakfastchef /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Since you veered off the Tangent board layout (as pictured above in infinitesymphony's post), I am not sure I can be of much help.


Here's the layout I think he's using for the build:

revisedcm0y.png


That multimeter probably would be fine for simple voltage and continuity tests.

Edit: Since you broke the railsplitter, how have you corrected the design?
 
Feb 24, 2008 at 10:31 PM Post #26 of 62
Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That multimeter probably would be fine for simple voltage and continuity tests.

Edit: Since you broke the railsplitter, how have you corrected the design?



When I broke the railsplitter, I did revert back to the original Tangent design but did keep MisterX's design for the ceramic resistors to go around and get that jumper that connects to C1. For the r.in and l.in up one spot and jumpered to that spot since I couldn't fit it under C2. I also checked the sound by shorting the line that goes from the jumper from C2 to the ceramic resistor, and it sounds funky but it does get some music that is better than leaving the amp unshorted.

Will having only eight ranges be sufficient for the multimeter??? What voltage am I looking to use when I get one?
 
Feb 24, 2008 at 11:39 PM Post #27 of 62
Quote:

Originally Posted by LazyAzN /img/forum/go_quote.gif
What would the cheapest sufficient multimeter be then? Would RadioShack.com - Cables, Parts & Connectors: Test & measuring equipment: Multimeters: Pocket-Sized 8-Range Analog Multimeter be sufficient?


If you have a Harbor Freight around, one of these would do it:
Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

Your symptoms sound like the opamp is not even powered, hence no difference with/without power turned on, battery in, etc. Looking you pics over, I didn't see anything drastic, but again your layout changes might have me missing something. There were some areas on the right side of the board that looked jumpered, but I couldn't tell whether that was intentional or not.
 
Feb 24, 2008 at 11:54 PM Post #28 of 62
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pars /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If you have a Harbor Freight around, one of these would do it:
Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

Your symptoms sound like the opamp is not even powered, hence no difference with/without power turned on, battery in, etc. Looking you pics over, I didn't see anything drastic, but again your layout changes might have me missing something. There were some areas on the right side of the board that looked jumpered, but I couldn't tell whether that was intentional or not.



I do have a Harbor Freight, 20-30 minutes away, so it may be worth it. On the right side of the board (I use bullet form since I'm a to the point type of person)

- Right side has a wire stuck, so I made sure it's not connected to anything
- I jumpered the r.out and r.in one slot higher/lower to make it easier to conenct (ditto for left)

But I did just notice rigth now the battery holder is hanging by a strand for the black wire, so I'm going to see if i can solder it back on and see if it helps. I also did clean the bottom with rubbing alcohol and used a blade to make sure no wires/solder were connecting to another trace where it shouldn't.
 
Feb 25, 2008 at 12:12 AM Post #30 of 62
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pars /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I meant the right side from your bottom view... sorry for not being clear.


Oh, that was S-jumpered. Probably did misread your post.
I just resoldered the battery wire, same issue. Voltage problem.... hmm..
Just spotted something... the capacitor isn't grounded because the jumper is in the wrong slot!!! If you look at my soldering section, the capacitor's lower end isn't connected to the ground.
 

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