[hoglum]

Hi! I'm new to these forums and need some advice.
 
I'm using a pair of Sennheiser HD650s and just upgraded from Audigy2 to the Xonar Essence, and I'm pretty sure that something's either broken or not setup correctly. Either that, or I've wasted money on this card. From what I've heard, an audigy2 card cannot properly drive the HD650s due to lack of power and therefore the sound will not be what it could be. Since the Xonar card has a built in headphone amp, it should do a much better job, right? But when I installed the new card today, the sound is almost exactly the same, and yes I have increased the gain setting in the control panel.
 
Some background to my reasoning: Before I bought the HD650s, I was using HD595 and they sounded amazing to my ears. I admit I'm not completely sure wether it was the phones themselves or if I was just playing around with some effects at the time, but at one point I remember clearly that the sound was as if I had the band right in front of me. It almost felt as if I was there, the instruments were clearly separated and I could easily hear where each band member was "standing", so to speak. But the 595's broke, and when I got the 650's, the soundstage was gone. At the time I didn't know much about headphone amps and thought "well, these were pretty expensive, so this must be how music is supposed to sound" and just accepted it even though it sounded bland and boring in comparison to the 595's - which I assume was because I wasn't giving them enough power.
 
Now, I'm not a hardcore audiophile and I may not have the sharpest hearing, but I can tell the difference between good sound and great sound. And the sound I'm hearing now (with the built-in amp) is not very different from what I heard before (without amp). It may not be the best amp in the world, but shouldn't it at least make a big noticable difference?
 
The soundstage is unchanged (=non-existing), regardless of gain setting. As I switch the gain from normal to high to extra high, the sound gets a little louder but only marginally better. All sounds are coming from the headphones, the illusion of being in front of the band is no more. The sound quality seems to have improved only marginally - maybe a little sharper and clearer, snares are perhaps a little snappier and there is a little bit more detail, but it still sounds pretty much like before. It's almost as if the phones are either still not given enough power, or broken. The source material I've been testing on is mostly lossless and >200kbps mp3 files, so that shouldn't be the problem.
 
I've been very careful with the 650's, so I don't see how they could be broken (though I've had them for a couple of years now, without amp). I thought it might be the soundcard drivers too, but I downloaded the latest version for my OS (Windows 7 64bit) so that shouldn't be it, right?
 
When I switch to dolby headphone in the xonar audio center, the sound gets a little closer to what I was expecting, but it also sounds distorted and artificial.
 
So, were my expectations on this card too high? Have I wasted my money? Do I need to have my ears checked? Or have I missed something? My understanding was that a headphone amp makes a huge difference to high-impedance headphones and that the soundstage I experienced before is part of that difference.

 

[Jd007]

I am extremely surprised that you could barely notice the improvement of the ST over the Audigy. I myself just recently upgraded from an Audigy to an ST as well, and the difference was enormous (through both the line out and the headphone out). With my speakers, the Audigy's lower frequency was weak, with the bass lacking any sort of punch feeling. With the ST, the bass is much better, stronger, tighter, with more strength and control.
 
With my IEMs (Shure SE530 + Etymotic ER4P) in the headphone out, similar improvement is heard, though for some reason the difference was smaller than I had expected (I expected to hear a much greater difference with the headphone out than with the line out, since the ST have an amp chip while the Audigy didn't). I was a bit surprised that the improvement through the line out on my speakers was more noticeable than with the headphone out with my SE530s, but there was definitely still an improvement with the ST on the IEMs.
 
I don't think you (or I) have wasted the money on the ST. I do have to point out that the strong point of the card is the DAC (less so for the headphone amp). But the headphone out should still be an improvement over the Audigy nonetheless. Right now I'm waiting for my HD 650s to arrive and to have a go with them in the headphone out. Will get back to you in a few days.
 
By the way, what media player are you using? Are you using WASAPI/ASIO or something similar to bypass the OS? Also have you tried swapping out the op amps? All my above comments about the ST have been with regards to the stock card. Now I have a pair of LME49720NAs in the I/V section, and there is definitely a significant improvement on the lower end of the frequency spectrum, very noticeable with both the line out to speakers and headphone out to IEMs.

 

[hoglum]

 
Quote:

I am extremely surprised that you could barely notice the improvement of the ST over the Audigy. I myself just recently upgraded from an Audigy to an ST as well, and the difference was enormous (through both the line out and the headphone out). With my speakers, the Audigy's lower frequency was weak, with the bass lacking any sort of punch feeling. With the ST, the bass is much better, stronger, tighter, with more strength and control.
 
With my IEMs (Shure SE530 + Etymotic ER4P) in the headphone out, similar improvement is heard, though for some reason the difference was smaller than I had expected (I expected to hear a much greater difference with the headphone out than with the line out, since the ST have an amp chip while the Audigy didn't). I was a bit surprised that the improvement through the line out on my speakers was more noticeable than with the headphone out with my SE530s, but there was definitely still an improvement with the ST on the IEMs.
 
I don't think you (or I) have wasted the money on the ST. I do have to point out that the strong point of the card is the DAC (less so for the headphone amp). But the headphone out should still be an improvement over the Audigy nonetheless. Right now I'm waiting for my HD 650s to arrive and to have a go with them in the headphone out. Will get back to you in a few days.
 
By the way, what media player are you using? Are you using WASAPI/ASIO or something similar to bypass the OS? Also have you tried swapping out the op amps? All my above comments about the ST have been with regards to the stock card. Now I have a pair of LME49720NAs in the I/V section, and there is definitely a significant improvement on the lower end of the frequency spectrum, very noticeable with both the line out to speakers and headphone out to IEMs.

To be honest, I notice a difference in sound quality, but the difference is small enough to be attributed to the placebo effect. Maybe I should do a blind test with my old card, just to make sure. I don't use any equalizers at all and the bass is exactly as before (not very strong), as far as I can tell. All and all I'd describe the sound as more detailed, but still flat - I actually just compared sound quality between the normal gain setting and the extra high setting on the card, and I can honestly barely hear any difference at all in terms of quality. The only major difference is that it's louder.
 
My hearing may not be perfect, but it's not THAT bad. I'm wondering if maybe I got a faulty card or something?
 
And to answer your last questions, I'm using foobar2000 v.1.0.3. Actually I switched to WASAPI set to 24 bit output (same as the setting for the card in windows control panel) just now and I'll have to admit there is an improvement. But it's still nowhere near what I was expecting from this card + amp. I haven't swapped out the op amps, no.

 

[shimm]

Wrong setup no doubts. Maybe wrong position in mobo - to close to CPU, video, PS. And you better find and use some dedicated Molex wire from PS. And change I/U op-amps with 2x LME49720NA, LME49860NA, for example. And use last driver from here: ftp://ftp.asus.com.tw/pub/ASUS/Audio_Card/Xonar_Essence_ST

 

[hoglum]

Ok, so now I've tried changing the card's position in the mobo, I've tried reinstalling the drivers (7.12.8.1777) and disabled the onboard sound card in BIOS, just in case. I've also checked the molex connector. No change whatsoever. Now that I've listened for a while, I can tell the sound quality has indeed improved from before. More detailed and realistic sound. Hardly a 200 euro difference, but still. I think the problem is with the gain setting - increasing it just makes everything louder, it doesn't change the sound's character at all.
 
I haven't changed any of the opamps yet, is that really necessary? From what I've heard, the standard ones sound pretty good.
 

 

[shimm]

Guys who have found their best opamps setup will never back to stock setup. No way. If you don't want to mess with soldering mods, you'll need some stable opamps. There are lot of threads here about opamps rolling. LME49860NA - they are very good, stable, cheap and easy to use (2x DIP8 - same as stock ones).

 

[winma]

Yeah, op-amps is a good alternative. I have used them, and i have experienced big sound improvements. 

 

[xnor]

That's just another way of wasting money, imo.

 

[hoglum]

Ok, I've mailed ASUS about this, still awaiting reply, but I'm not so sure my setup is the problem anymore..
 
I suspected there was either something wrong with the card or the cans, so I went to a local hi-fi store to try out some headphone amps. Just to make sure my cans weren't faulty. They only had one amp, an Argon HA1. I put on some metal, started with the low gain setting, and then increased it. I must say I was underwhelmed by the sound. I was expecting so much more. I thought the instruments would separate much more, the soundstage would be much bigger and that the music would be taken to a whole new level. Not so much. The volume increased, and there was slightly more bass and a more "open" sound with more air around the instruments, but no major change in imaging. The store guys said the argon wouldn't do my cans any justice, so that might've had something to do with it. It would probably sound even better with a better amp, but I don't think my expectations on the soundstage were very realistic.
 
I did however notice a rather big difference with electronic music, but still not even close to what I had hoped for. I guess I must've been messing with some environmental effects on my 595s before.
 
On the upside though, now that I know there's nothing wrong with my cans and probably nothing wrong with the xonar either, I guess I've adjusted my expectations because it sounds really good now, not far from what I heard in the store. The volume change when changing the gain setting makes it very difficult to judge any difference in sound quality, but as far as I can tell the difference is marginal. It sounds great though. And there's a big difference with different kind of music. Meshuggah, which is what I usually listen to, sounds almost exactly the same on all gain settings, but I'm starting to think that has more to do with their sound than with my equipment.
 
So I guess the problem was high expectations or bad hearing, depending on how you look at it.

 

[dex85]

it's possible that HD650 is simply not your cup of tea and they won't get you going no matter what gear you pair them to. maybe it's time to sell them and get the HD595 again, if you prefer them.

 

[jenneth]

Another possibility could be that you simply don't like the HD650.

 

[hoglum]

That's possible I guess, but what I want is a completely neutral and uncolored sound and if the HD650s is closer to that than the 595s (which I believe), I'm sticking with this. I could get philosophical about it but suffice to say that I'm not necessarily looking for what sounds best to me, but rather what the artists intended it to sound like. I know the HD650s color the sound slightly, and I don't know if it's even possible to get a completely neutral sound, but if the 650's do a better job with that than the 595, it's an easy choice.
 
I think the bass is a lot weaker now (but still very good) than with the audigy2, which is a little ironic since the 650s apparently have a fairly dark sound. Most likely that's because I upped the lows and highs with audigy2 since I thought that was a more neutral sound. Now I stand corrected.
 
I think the reason why I thought the 595s sounded so good was because I had really bad cans before them. So the step up to 595 made a huge difference. Maybe the step between 595 and 650 wasn't as big (or maybe the lack of proper amplification made the step smaller).
I'm not gonna go back to the HD595 unless someone convinces me they sound as detailed and neutral as the 650s, but maybe I'll try another pair similar to the 650s in the future.

 

[xnor]

Quote:

Most likely that's because I upped the lows and highs with audigy2 since I thought that was a more neutral sound.

Depends on your listening volume.

 

[Alexander01]

I owned the Asus Xonar STX before (Coming from X-Fi Titanium). The Xonar STX lacks the smoothness, soundstage, imaging and bass depth that X-Fi cards have. I think the high-end Xonar cards are very overrated. On paper the card is very good, but the sound it produces is nothing special. Yes it's clear, but also aggressive, harsh, spikey and edgy. I would return it and get the X-Fi Titanium or wait for the X-Fi Titanium HD. Much more bang for back if you use equalizer software (By default MP3 sounds crap, so you really need to do some equalizing in low and high end frequencies).
 
I was also expecting much more from this card. I was hoping that I got blowed away by an incredible low shaking sub-bass, an enormous amount of soundstage depth/wide and a high quality laidback spacious detailed smoothing high end.
 
Totally Disappointed.. Not the expected audiophile sound
ASUS had to do way more listening tests before releasing a card with too much flaws.

 

[anwaypasible]

what the original poster was describing was a complete lack of enjoyment because of the headphones.
 
no matter what the amplifier.. a truthful drastic change in speaker design will make the difference audible.
 
there really isnt much of a trick to the equation.
your amp made the music louder, that is all it is supposed to do.
there are only two differences that an amplifier can have.
 
1. the audio is louder
2. the electricity coming from the amp can be exited faster and that means better treble (or timber as i like to call it)
 
there are rare cases when a speaker sounds much better when the speaker is being driven at 101%
but most of the time, these speakers will make you go deaf before you are coming close to happy.
 
the other majority of the time, the speaker will reveal its worth at low volume.
there is a sensitivity thing that means someone who says the letter P will either sound dull or it will make your ears tickle.
and then there is a characteristic that is how fast the speakers are.
fast speakers dont slur.. and again, majority of the time the speaker will tell you if it is fast at low volume without the need of an amplifier upgrade.
 
the only time the above happens is when you start talking in comparison of going from normal speakers to concert speakers.
massive amounts of energy will make concert speakers emit the details loud.
 
but like i said, if you cant hear a pin drop with the speakers then you want a new pair of speakers unless the amplifier cant provide the electricity fast enough to reproduce the sound of a pin dropping.
 
i think your headphones are evil and possibly made for those people who are already hard of hearing.
 
the only time louder makes the details easier to be heard is when you start at zero and slowly move your way up to being able to hear that the radio is on.
you shouldnt have to crank up the volume/power to hear those details from the speaker if the speaker is playing as loud as a box fan on low speed.
what you then want is better speakers.
 
dont be so frustrated though because it is easy to listen to a speaker and throw it over your shoulder because it didnt do the job it was supposed to.
there are speaker engineers who are assigned to make hundreds of speakers that cant do the job.. so by the time you are done throwing speakers over your shoulder ~ you turn around and realize that your living room is full of junk speakers.
 
dont let anybody tell you any different, because you have an ear for high quality and you seem like you dont want to just give up and accept the junk that you are stuck with.
i'm trying to tell you that you shouldnt take that crap.
 
yes the new soundcard might be more voltage.. but obviously the new amplifier doesnt send that voltage any faster than the old card.
OR
the speakers cant play the sound any faster because they are junk.