[atomicbob]

   
 
1 - Crossover cable not required. Ports are auto-sensing and will sync up either directly connected or via a switch.
2 - It should work with most if not all GigE copper switches, and should even work over 10/100, especially when we're talking two channel audio. The highest network utilization I've seen on the link I'm using for Dante has been around 20Mbit/sec. We are really only using a fraction of the capacity of the network for stereo audio purposes.
3 - UTP, though as Bob pointed out, if you want to use STP and want to maintain isolation across the network connection, probably better to have the shield only connected at the source.  Also, if you are using AES out, it is also transformer coupled right at the interface.

Thank-you.
 
So does this imply that if I dedicate an ethernet port from a laptop for Dante VAC, I could connect the laptop EN port directly to the Rednet D16 EN port using a short Cat 6 UTP and dispense with the switch for a single Rednet device system?
 
For the lab and larger systems I would expect to obtain one of the recommended managed switches. For portable operation it is preferable to minimize the number of items and connections necessary.

 

[rb2013]

   
Hi rb2013,
 
I kind of grew into these solutions as I initially used WiFi and later ethernet using Devialet's proprietary ethernet/WiFi streaming protocol called 'AIR'. Having an IT background I initially didn't believe things could sound different, 'bits are just bits' right? I was so wrong! After trying out some things I learned from the computeraudiophile forum things went quickly and I also figured out that using a tweaked computer USB could actually sound better than the WiFi and ethernet inputs of the Devialet. (still can't explain the why or hows behind this with certainty).

Another preconception I had was that ethernet/WiFi and USB should in theory be better than the S/PDIF or AES/EBU inputs on the Devialet. Wrong again! I found out in practice using the Mutec MC-3+ USB that it improved SQ significantly (I learned about the device from a fellow Devialet owner). This could of course also be because of the Mutec being a better DDC and re-clocker than the Devialet USB/ethernet internals which I today consider to be 'mediocre' as you called the Mutec's USB input (which I don't agree with! To me it's sounds brilliant in tandem with the microRendu).
 
Because of the above the Sonore Signature Rendu had never been on my radar and it never got really much press attention and little user reviews as well. Also I now see it's available in a 220/230V version but this option must have been added recently, it used to be 110V only. The Devialet unfortunately doesn't have an I2S input so I can't use that. Another thing that held me back was the fact that I am in The Netherlands and importing stuff from the US is expensive (shipping+customs duties and VAT).
 
I'm not saying the microRendu is my "end station", I'm actually very interested in Ravenna/Dante or any other audio over ethernet/IP protocol. Devialet AIR being similar, functionality wise, was one of the reasons I bought the Devialet. I didn't like finding out though that it doesn't support automatic sample rate switching, so that's a setback for me.
 
I'm waiting for the four rail custom Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4 PSU to arrive, it will power my Mutec, which I will mod, as well (and the microRendu, Anti-Mode and FMC).

That PH SR7 is a very sweet PS!  And not cheap.  When I say the Mutec USB card is not anything special - that it as a stand alone.  As compared to the F-1 with the XU208 XMOS and Cyrstek CCHD-575 clocks.  They Mutec does do galvanic isolation - so that is a positive aspect of their design.  You are kind new to this thread - and it's become a monster.  But in a head to head with a well fed F-1 the Mutec was no match.  It is an excellent SPDIF reclocker though.
 
If your looking to max your SQ with the microrendu - you might try the F-1 with the PH PS and a few other tweeks.  Before gutting the PS on the Mutec.
 
The AES67 solution is not going to work for you - and certainly the microrendu - which was designed with USB as a coupler.
 
I hope that Roon-RATT does make a true bridge to a ASIO like output - so others can use it.  But by it's very design really can't see how that would be possible.  Without major surgery on the player side.  Now JR and Foobar have UpNP plugins - not really sure how that works though.
http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_upnp
Damn this is getting complicated:
 
So happy with my chain now: PC>REDNET3>DAC

 

[rb2013]

   
Well it's true, you can't. The microRendu is not a virtual soundcard. The only workaround I can think of is using an application like Jamcast (never tried it) which installs as a virtual soundcard and converts all sound output to a uPnP/DLNA stream. Personally, and I believe like you,I'm not a fan of uPnP/DLNA so I've never tried Jamcast nor have I ever had the need.
 
Anyone that values the "directly connected" computer audio functionality/experience with which you can output sound or music from any program running on a computer (whether it is currently through an internal/extern soundcard, USB or ethernet) should indeed go for a Ravenna/Dante like solution or stick to the 'old' ways but not go for a microRendu. Even Devialet AIR is trouble ridden so even as an owner I wouldn't currently recommend that either.
 
The microRendu OTOH is very versatile, more so than an Aurender, Aries or whatever commercial streamer so if it offers what you need I think it's a great value.

I see that Foobar does have a UpNP plugin - god it looks complicated.
http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_upnp
 
One thing I forgot to mention on your Devialet USB input and the fact is was bettered by an ext unit.  Uptone's John Swenson speaks about 'USB packet noise' feeding back through a DAC's internal PS (even across isolation efforts) producing noise fed to the DAC's clocks.  These femto second clocks are ultra sensitive to power supply noise.  So it's easy to see why moving away from USB would improve the SQ.
 
So with an external DDC you at least get the XMOS and it's AGC circuit out of the DAC.  Best to put it on a separate and isolated and filtered AC line.

 

[rb2013]

  Thank-you.
 
So does this imply that if I dedicate an ethernet port from a laptop for Dante VAC, I could connect the laptop EN port directly to the Rednet D16 EN port using a short Cat 6 UTP and dispense with the switch for a single Rednet device system?
 
For the lab and larger systems I would expect to obtain one of the recommended managed switches. For portable operation it is preferable to minimize the number of items and connections necessary.

Yes - that's how I have mine set-up.  Directly from the PC ethernet to the REDNET ethernet (no switch in between).  DVS and REDNET Controller on the PC.  The REDNET Controller is a just a hardware control interface.  Not to be confused with a UpNP Controller.

 

[Acrobat77]

 
That PH SR7 is a very sweet PS!  And not cheap.  When I say the Mutec USB card is not anything special - that it as a stand alone.  As compared to the F-1 with the XU208 XMOS and Cyrstek CCHD-575 clocks.  They Mutec does do galvanic isolation - so that is a positive aspect of their design.  You are kind new to this thread - and it's become a monster.  But in a head to head with a well fed F-1 the Mutec was no match.  It is an excellent SPDIF reclocker though.
 
If your looking to max your SQ with the microrendu - you might try the F-1 with the PH PS and a few other tweeks.  Before gutting the PS on the Mutec.
 
The AES67 solution is not going to work for you - and certainly the microrendu - which was designed with USB as a coupler.
 
I hope that Roon-RATT does make a true bridge to a ASIO like output - so others can use it.  But by it's very design really can't see how that would be possible.  Without major surgery on the player side.  Now JR and Foobar have UpNP plugins - not really sure how that works though.
http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_upnp
Damn this is getting complicated:
 
So happy with my chain now: PC>REDNET3>DAC

 
The PH should indeed be a very nice PSU. It should arrive soon (last day of the estimated lead time ended yesterday) but with PH you never know! :-/ Mine is one from his own system so I got it at a very nice price and he offered to customize it for my targeted applications as well. All outputs (one 8A, three 2A) will be adjustable from 3.3V to 12V so I could potentially power a lot of different devices with it in the future.
 
I'm not new to the thread (or your previous ones and those of others with similar interests) I'm just posting in one for the first time today (even signed up to the forum only today). I've been enjoying reading about your adventures and of others posting here about theirs as well. So I know how things developed for you and others.
 
Perhaps I'll try the Singxer F-1 or even the SU-1 one day with and without the MC-3+ as a S/PDIF re-clocker but I'm actually interested most in the Dante/Ravenna devices (eg. those Rednets). I don't see why these wouldn't work for me, I am of course aware that such a solution would replace the microRendu if it proves to be an upgrade. I don't think you/you guys should dismiss the microRendu this quickly though, I was really amazed (still am actually) what it did in my system with the Mutec. It really blew away my music server (not saying that that was the optimum, but at least it wasn't a standard PC or a Macbook or something like it).
 
No, no, no, it's not complicated at all! Just to be clear Roon RAAT is the protocol used for streaming to an endpoint like the microRendu or any computer running Windows/Linux or Mac.
 
The part of Roon that for example "takes" ASIO as an input is the 'server' part. This is installed on a computer or Mac. Someone with a Rednet device would simply install the DVS software/driver on that same machine and the ASIO output becomes available as a local 'zone' in Roon. In this case you wouldn't need an endpoint like a microRendu running Roon as the Rednet device is the "endpoint" through the DVS. So it's PC with Roon Server + DVS -> ethernet -> Rednet -> DAC. Add a tablet or phone for remote control and you're done. Simple as that. The PC that runs Roon Server+DVS can hold your music library or you could choose to load it from any other machine, like a NAS, in your network through SMB.

 

[jelt2359]

I just confirmed with sonore that the signature rendu does not support Roon. They can configure it to work with 230v, though.

 

[Albrecht]

Hi RB
 
It's my understanding that ROON uses RAAT protocol, - which is a layer 3 protocol over UDP/UTP. It is not DLNA/UPnP
 
Not making any judgments about SQ, - I have no experience with Roon or AES67... I trust your testing & analyses.

 

[rb2013]

  No, no, no, it's not complicated at all! Just to be clear Roon RAAT is the protocol used for streaming to an endpoint like the microRendu or any computer running Windows/Linux or Mac.
 
The part of Roon that for example "takes" ASIO as an input is the 'server' part. This is installed on a computer or Mac. Someone with a Rednet device would simply install the DVS software/driver on that same machine and the ASIO output becomes available as a local 'zone' in Roon. In this case you wouldn't need an endpoint like a microRendu running Roon as the Rednet device is the "endpoint" through the DVS. So it's PC with Roon Server + DVS -> ethernet -> Rednet -> DAC. Add a tablet or phone for remote control and you're done. Simple as that. The PC that runs Roon Server+DVS can hold your music library or you could choose to load it from any other machine, like a NAS, in your network through SMB.

"No, no, no, it's not complicated at all!"
 
"In this case you wouldn't need an endpoint like a microRendu running Roon as the Rednet device is the "endpoint" through the DVS. So it's PC with Roon Server + DVS -> ethernet -> Rednet -> DAC. Add a tablet or phone for remote control and you're done. Simple as that. The PC that runs Roon Server+DVS can hold your music library or you could choose to load it from any other machine, like a NAS, in your network through SMB."
 
Not as simple as this PC>REDNET>DAC

 

[Acrobat77]

 
I see that Foobar does have a UpNP plugin - god it looks complicated.
http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_upnp
 
One thing I forgot to mention on your Devialet USB input and the fact is was bettered by an ext unit.  Uptone's John Swenson speaks about 'USB packet noise' feeding back through a DAC's internal PS (even across isolation efforts) producing noise fed to the DAC's clocks.  These femto second clocks are ultra sensitive to power supply noise.  So it's easy to see why moving away from USB would improve the SQ.
 
So with an external DDC you at least get the XMOS and it's AGC circuit out of the DAC.  Best to put it on a separate and isolated and filtered AC line.

Yes, I agree. I understand John Swensons theory and those of people like Rob Watts, Gordon Rankin etc. In my view I believe them when they say it all comes down to feeding the DAC the lowest noise signal using the highest quality clocks possible. Clean power, internal ground planes and proper isolation between the different domains is extremely important and all this goes for the internal circuits of the DAC itself just as well.
 
What I meant was that up to today I can't really understand why the USB input of the Devialet outperforms the ethernet input. It should be better but just isn't. Of course this must be because of the internal design of both interfaces though both are part of the same internal inferface card. But mind you, I no longer feel the need to understand, I've accepted it's true in my system, to my ears (though other confirm/have similar experiences) so am just glad I found other options that improved SQ without the direct need of buying a new DAC.
 
Regarding clean AC I also agree with that. I use a separate AC circuit (shared earth unfortunately) and employ a PS Audio P3 power plant (230V) which is powerful enough to power all the stuff and even my sub without noticing any constraints in dynamics.

 

[occamsrazor]

Not as simple as this PC>REDNET>DAC

 
Actually I think it is exactly that. With respect the network streaming capability of Roon is completely irrelevant as we would not be using that function of it.
 
When you say PC > Rednet > Dac
 
What I think you actually mean is:
 
PC running Player X > DVS on that PC > Rednet > Dac
 
If you were running Roon as your player it would simply be:
 
PC running Roon > DVS on that PC > Rednet > Dac
 
So no different to using any other player....

 

[rb2013]

I just confirmed with sonore that the signature rendu does not support Roon. They can configure it to work with 230v, though.

That is too bad - but it does DNLA/UpNP.

So not all DNLA/UpNP players are compatible with Roon?
 

STANDARD FEATURES
Supports Tidal lossless streaming via BubbleUPNP controller on an Android device
Supports Tidal lossless streaming via BubbleServer and Linn Kazoo controller
Supports gapless playback
Supports DSD/DoP pass through via SPDIF output
Isolation from server noise over network
Asynchronous Ethernet to SPDIF / LVDS i2s output
Integrated, 32 bit, high precision volume control
Supports 24 bit PCM playback at sample rates up to 192KHz via SPDIF and LVDS i2s output
Supports native DSD playback up to DSD128 via LVDS i2s output 
Controlled via apps on a computer, Android, and iOS device
UPnPTM AV 2.0 / DLNA compliant
Gold plated exposed copper on printed circuit boards
Impedance control on digital output module
Stripline design with traces buried in the inner layers of the board to give the best signal integrity and EMI protection
 

So from Sonore their totl $2800 DNLA/UpNP device does not do what their $690 device does???

 
I'd be pretty pissed off if I spent almost $3K and it wouldn't work with my $500 player.
 
I'd rather have a bullet to my head then get on board with Roon and DNLA/UpNP

 

[Acrobat77]

  "No, no, no, it's not complicated at all!"
 
"In this case you wouldn't need an endpoint like a microRendu running Roon as the Rednet device is the "endpoint" through the DVS. So it's PC with Roon Server + DVS -> ethernet -> Rednet -> DAC. Add a tablet or phone for remote control and you're done. Simple as that. The PC that runs Roon Server+DVS can hold your music library or you could choose to load it from any other machine, like a NAS, in your network through SMB."
 
Not as simple as this PC>REDNET>DAC

 
Honestly I don't see a difference between your chain: PC>REDNET>DAC and my suggested chain: PC (running DVS+Roon Server software) -> ethernet -> Rednet -> DAC.
 
The only thing different is the music player, right? You'll also need ethernet in between and the DVS software.

 

[Acrobat77]

   
Actually I think it is exactly that. With respect the network streaming capability of Ron is completely irrelevant as we would not be using that function of it.
 
When you say PC > Rednet > Dac
 
What I think you actually mean is:
 
PC running Player X > DVS on that PC > Rednet > Dac
 
If you were running Roon as your player it would simply be:
 
PC running Roon > DVS on that PC > Rednet > Dac
 
So no different to using any other player....

Exactly!

 

[occamsrazor]

   
Actually I think it is exactly that. With respect the network streaming capability of Roon is completely irrelevant as we would not be using that function of it.
 
When you say PC > Rednet > Dac
 
What I think you actually mean is:
 
PC running Player X > DVS on that PC > Rednet > Dac
 
If you were running Roon as your player it would simply be:
 
PC running Roon > DVS on that PC > Rednet > Dac
 
So no different to using any other player....

 
I just want to add that I'm not a crazed Roon fanboy. I tried it and was very impressed overrall, especially with the level and rate of software development and responsiveness to customer queries and feature requests which in my experience is pretty unparalled in the audiophile world.
But in the end I decided the more "normal" player interface was more to my liking. Either way, there's a free 14-day trial for anyone to test it and see if it suits them.
 
I just wanted to correct the impression you gave that Roon either wouldn't work or would be much more complicated to use with Rednet, which I don't feel would be the case. The network topology would be exactly the same as with any other player software.

 

[Acrobat77]

 
That is too bad - but it does DNLA/UpNP.

So not all DNLA/UpNP players are compatible with Roon?
 
So from Sonore their totl $2800 DNLA/UpNP device does not do what their $690 device does???

 
I'd be pretty pissed off if I spent almost $3K and it wouldn't work with my $500 player.
 
I'd rather have a bullet to my head then get on board with Roon and DNLA/UpNP

Nope! Roon doesn't do/support UPnP, they "hate" the protocol as much as we do (and Alex Crespi who you've quoted a lot). Again, they've developped their own protocol which is RAAT.
 
There's so many DAC's/DDC's out there that don't support Roon. Devialet for example doesn't even seem to want to consider it. People that want to use Roon would simply have to accept they can't use it with their current device so don't use it or switch to a different device that does support it. You can't really blame the DDC maker like Sonore, they probably designed the Signature Rendu before Roon existed/got "traction".