XDuoo X3 DSD 24Bit / 192KHz CS4398 Chip Lossless Music Player
May 10, 2016 at 12:20 PM Post #3,196 of 5,194
   
The decoders are all 32 bit, but I don't think the port to the X3 does more than 16 bit output.  The DSP engine can dither + 3rd order noise shaping though 32 bit, so in practice the difference is probably very small.  Actually I'd be surprised if it really matters for MP3 unless there's some problem with the noise shaper (haven't tested it myself).  

Thanks for the input @saratoga and hopefully more information on this will be forthcoming.
 
I'm hoping that some X3 user has measured lossy performance and can give me some feedback on the quality of this DAP for lossy playback, especially on quantized noise.
 
90% of my music collection is MP3 (nearly 2500 albums), so high quality lossy handling is an absolute must for me, because quantized noise from crappy decoder implementations can't be fixed with an external DAC or amp, because obviously the decoder is upstream of both.
 
There are still very few high storage capacity, small-form factor music devices on the market (even android phablets/tablets are hard to find with high storage capacity), so I'm interested in any new device that has those features, but if lossy quality playback is poor that's a deal-breaker for me.
 
This is not a topic I'm very optimistic about though, because many TOTL or near TOTL DAP's from AKG, iBasso and Fiio (though Fiio kinda fixed their decoder eventually) reportedly perform very poorly with lossy files due to poor decoder implementations.
 
Presumably, their assumption is that an insignificant portion of the theoretical market for such devices will play lossy files on them.
 
Unfortunately this is a major barrier for the general public adopting even the cheap high-quality/hires DAPs, because the truth is that generally their playback of lossy files (the majority of music in most people's collections) is so far from high-end it would be a joke if it didn't cost hundreds or thousands of dollars to find out.
 
Also, just in case someone is itching to direct me to Apple after reading the above, I'm not interested in anything within the over-priced Apple product line, period.  I'm also not really interested in Sansa, because they don't make a high storage capacity DAP.
 
I just would like to be able to look at some measurements and ABX tests performed on this DAP and others that have expandable storage, using lossy files in addition to lossless files, so I can make an informed decision.
 
Maybe this will never happen, and I can hardly expect that anyone would put in hours of work making those measurements and performing ABX tests for free, but I've been pleasantly surprised by the head-fi community in the past and continue to hope that someone can speak to lossy playback quality on this device.
 
May 10, 2016 at 4:19 PM Post #3,197 of 5,194
 
Bruce,
 
   Someone else needs to respond to your X3 Rockbox database questions as again, I don't use the database feature, preferring to play ALL my music randomly in one playlist that comprises all the entries on BOTH my mSD cards.  Frankly it very well may have already been answered in one of the two xDuoo X3 threads... dunno.
 
  And again being redundant, since Rockbox shows mSD1 as internal and mSD2 as external, whereas the factory firmware shows both as internal, when connecting the DAP to your computer the later approach makes for much easier file management through windows in my view.

 
That sounds like a MSC vs MTP mode thing regarding the way the Xduoo connected to the PC and presents itself.
 
 
 
Pros vs. rockbox: Slightly louder output, simple & effective UI, very stable
 
Cons vs. rockbox: requires media library update even for directory view, no EQ & other rockbox specific features

 
How could the stock firmware reach higher volumes than that of rockbox port? Can someone specifically explain that here?
 
 
  Thanks for the input and hopefully more information on this will be forthcoming.
 
I'm hoping that some X3 user has measured lossy performance and can give me some feedback on the quality of this DAP for lossy playback, especially on quantized noise.
 
90% of my music collection is MP3 (nearly 2500 albums), so high quality lossy handling is an absolute must for me, because quantized noise from crappy decoder implementations can't be fixed with an external DAC or amp, because obviously the decoder is upstream of both.
 
There are still very few high storage capacity, small-form factor music devices on the market (even android phablets/tablets are hard to find with high storage capacity), so I'm interested in any new device that has those features, but if lossy quality playback is poor that's a deal-breaker for me.
 
This is not a topic I'm very optimistic about though, because many TOTL or near TOTL DAP's from AKG, iBasso and Fiio (though Fiio kinda fixed their decoder eventually) reportedly perform very poorly with lossy files due to poor decoder implementations.
 
Presumably, their assumption is that an insignificant portion of the theoretical market for such devices will play lossy files on them.
 
Unfortunately this is a major barrier for the general public adopting even the cheap high-quality/hires DAPs, because the truth is that generally their playback of lossy files (the majority of music in most people's collections) is so far from high-end it would be a joke if it didn't cost hundreds or thousands of dollars to find out.
 
Also, just in case someone is itching to direct me to Apple after reading the above, I'm not interested in anything within the over-priced Apple product line, period.  I'm also not really interested in Sansa, because they don't make a high storage capacity DAP.
 
I just would like to be able to look at some measurements and ABX tests performed on this DAP and others that have expandable storage, using lossy files in addition to lossless files, so I can make an informed decision.
 
Maybe this will never happen, and I can hardly expect that anyone would put in hours of work making those measurements and performing ABX tests for free, but I've been pleasantly surprised by the head-fi community in the past and continue to hope that someone can speak to lossy playback quality on this device.

 
ABX testing on headif?! HA! Good luck with that! I utter the words 'ABX' to get headfiers to leave and run away!
 
Is Sansa with a 200gb card not enough storage?
 
Usually with DAPs there's a file limit before storage space being an issue. My AP100 is capped kinda at 5800 files, at least for id3tag browsing. Rockbox has no file limit, or at least in theory the limit is very high. 
 
May 10, 2016 at 4:27 PM Post #3,198 of 5,194
BruceBanner stock firmware lacks any way to modify the sound aside from a single gain boost option, so it's possible it's something that can be corrected in a newer update of Rockbox for the X3. Some people have asked why Rockbox sounds slightly flatter, it is probably something that can be changed in the code. I remember this being an issue when the iPod rockbox port was new but got ironed out eventually.

I will install Rockbox sooner or later but I have 4 / 5 other Rockboxed DAPS, that is also part of why I'm still using X3 stock OS... Rockbox is nothing new for me :p

Partially I helped on the original ipod and original Sansa Clip's rockbox ports now i'm happy waiting for other people to let it become well aged and stable :wink:

Lastly the dual microSD is important to some people, yes 200gb is not enough for me, I have 2x 200gb in mine and still needing to make space always for new stuff. I bought the X3 because it was the cheapest with 2x mSD and loved it more than I thought I would
 
May 10, 2016 at 5:00 PM Post #3,199 of 5,194
I'm just jealous you have 400gb worth of music! I honestly find it hard to pass 32gb of music/songs that I actually LIKE. I mean my main collection sits around 70gb but a lot of that I'm happy to skip. I consider myself to have quite a varied taste in music but can't fathom what 400gb worth of tunes amounts to lol.
 
May 10, 2016 at 6:22 PM Post #3,200 of 5,194
...ABX testing on headif?! HA! Good luck with that! I utter the words 'ABX' to get headfiers to leave and run away!  
Is Sansa with a 200gb card not enough storage?
 
Usually with DAPs there's a file limit before storage space being an issue. My AP100 is capped kinda at 5800 files, at least for id3tag browsing. Rockbox has no file limit, or at least in theory the limit is very high. 

ABX - Tell me about it ... :)
 
No 200GB isn't nearly enough.  Hopefully this doesn't come across in a mean way, but a 200GB micro SD card in a Sansa is no better than my smartphone with a 200GB micro SD card, which already sounds very, very good using UAPP w/OTG USB cable >> USB DAC/Amp.  Given that, a Sansa would only (theoretically) improve on my smartphone in battery life and maybe in convenience if I no longer needed the Amp (debatable).  However, I would also lose the DAC for hires playback with a Sansa, so it's a wash with my existing player solution, putting Sansas into side-grade territory in my book.
 
@BruceBanner, I just don't have any appetite for spending money needlessly on side-grade players, when I can spend that money on more music, and better headphones/IEMs.
 
Therefore, I've become interested in dual sd card audio players, but dual sd card slot phones and tablets are so rare I'm not sure anyone actually makes them, so the only possible actual upgrade seems to be dual SD card slot DAPs.
 
I'm really, really interested in the xDuoo X3, because all the other dual SD card DAP's I've run across are prohibitively expensive and apparently sound and measure mediocre at best with lossy music due to terribad decoders and this makes them very expensive ways to have a bad listening experience for me, hence my inquiry as to how the X3 sounds with lossy music.  Basically, my short list for upgrading my current audio playing solution goes like this:
 
1.  X3, if lossy playback is excellent.
2.  Dual micro SD or SD card slot small-form factor tablet/phone if one ever hits the market for real (possibly also upgrade DAC/AMP to an AudioQuest DragonFly Black/Red).  The Onda Air V919, is nearly everything I want, except it is physically huge and has only 1 SD slot, but at least it runs full Windows 10 64-bit and therefore has none of the downsides of using peripherals with Android and I can install standard VLC and foobar2000 for TOTL sound with USB DAC/Amp.
3.  Suggestions??
 
May 10, 2016 at 6:48 PM Post #3,201 of 5,194
I honestly think its lossy playback is great. It's even better at lossless of course, I have many times run the X3's line out with some master recordings into a compressor for re-mastering in fact
smily_headphones1.gif
 
 
edit: It is more forgiving than my ODAC to 128kbps MP3's slightly, but doesn't hold back at all on lossless performance. For this reason it's a bit more tolerable to listen to low bitrate on the X3. the ODAC brings out the MP3 low bitrate crappiness a bit too much for you to be able to still enjoy the songs.
 
May 10, 2016 at 6:53 PM Post #3,202 of 5,194
 
3.  Suggestions??

 
Buy the X3 and see if it works for you. If it doesn't, you probably wouldn't have any problem selling it for close to what you paid (especially if you find it for $90).
 
May 10, 2016 at 8:00 PM Post #3,203 of 5,194
  Thanks for the input @saratoga and hopefully more information on this will be forthcoming.
 
I'm hoping that some X3 user has measured lossy performance and can give me some feedback on the quality of this DAP for lossy playback, especially on quantized noise.

 
 
You can download the rockbox simulator from google and use the text_codec plugin (or anything that can capture windows audio) to record the output losslessly and test it yourself.  You don't need to have an actual player, at least not until someone actually implements 24 bit output on a real device.  
 
 
90% of my music collection is MP3 (nearly 2500 albums), so high quality lossy handling is an absolute must for me, because quantized noise from crappy decoder implementations can't be fixed with an external DAC or amp, because obviously the decoder is upstream of both.  
 

 
 
This is probably not something you have to worry about.  The actual decoding is done at much higher than 16 bit precision and then dithered down to 16 bit for playback.  This is much better than most devices (actually virtually everything with a battery) out there.  The actual quantization error introduced by the process will be orders of magnitude lower than what was introduced during the encoder process, making it basically irrelevant.  Usually when people have complained about decoder accuracy in the past (which is very rare) it was on decoders that operated at 16 bit internally, and therefore had real output much lower (often 10 bits or less).  
 
Actually, years ago I experimented with optimizations that traded off decoder accuracy for more battery life.  Testing with MP3, AAC and ATRAC3 I could go shockingly low before there was an audible difference because of how quantization error compounds in a decoder.  Most of it ends up masked.   I ended up never finishing the work though except for ATRAC3 !   
 
 
This is not a topic I'm very optimistic about though, because many TOTL or near TOTL DAP's from AKG, iBasso and Fiio (though Fiio kinda fixed their decoder eventually) reportedly perform very poorly with lossy files due to poor decoder implementations.
 
 

 
 
This is interesting to me.  What was the actual accuracy of their decoders such that people noticed a problem?  
 
May 11, 2016 at 12:17 AM Post #3,204 of 5,194
   
 
You can download the rockbox simulator from google and use the text_codec plugin (or anything that can capture windows audio) to record the output losslessly and test it yourself.  You don't need to have an actual player, at least not until someone actually implements 24 bit output on a real device.  
 
 
 
 
This is probably not something you have to worry about.  The actual decoding is done at much higher than 16 bit precision and then dithered down to 16 bit for playback.  This is much better than most devices (actually virtually everything with a battery) out there.  The actual quantization error introduced by the process will be orders of magnitude lower than what was introduced during the encoder process, making it basically irrelevant.  Usually when people have complained about decoder accuracy in the past (which is very rare) it was on decoders that operated at 16 bit internally, and therefore had real output much lower (often 10 bits or less).  
 
Actually, years ago I experimented with optimizations that traded off decoder accuracy for more battery life.  Testing with MP3, AAC and ATRAC3 I could go shockingly low before there was an audible difference because of how quantization error compounds in a decoder.  Most of it ends up masked.   I ended up never finishing the work though except for ATRAC3 !   
 
 
 
 
This is interesting to me.  What was the actual accuracy of their decoders such that people noticed a problem?  

 
@Marlene references this in the X5 review at Marlene's blog http://marlene-d.blogspot.com/2015/06/review-fiio-x5-loaned-by-fiio.html.  If you look at section five -
 
"Since releasing firmware 2.0, FiiO likes to brag about the 32 bit floating point decoding of some lossy formats, namely MP3 & OGG. They describe their decoding as industry leading; that is the truth and I´m partly responsible for this as I started a discussion in November 2013 in the X3-thread on Head-fi. I literally bombarded FiiO with emails regarding their then botched decoding of lossy formats, when that didn't prove successful, I wrote the post I linked above. Shortly after, others started to chime in while I continued providing measurement data revealing how bad the X3 was decoding MP3, OGG and WMA. To make a long story short, FiiO started to work on revamping their decoding engine. It took them half a year to pull it off, the results are stellar and well beyond my expectations. The X5 and X3 now decode MP3, OGG and WMA as pristine as foobar2000. Which is in fact industry leading; I don´t know any other company producing portable players that decode these lossy formats the way the devices from FiiO do. So what I called 'bragging' at the start of this paragraph is completely justified. I have to mention Head-fi member JoeBloggs, who works for FiiO and was incredibly helpful in getting it done (he will read this article and he will know what I´m talking about)." 
 
If you follow the embedded link to Marlene's post in the Fiio X3 thread, many other users noticed very poor performance of lossy codecs initially on the X3, with the original 16-bit decoder, with OOG decoding being particularly horrible.
 
Here's a neat summation of the basic problem from http://marlene-d.blogspot.nl/2013/11/mp3-and-other-hires-formats.html "By all means, the 16 bit, quasi-standard decoding of MP3 & Co. isn´t a good thing. Imagine a CD you ripped yourself to MP3; these files were derived from a normal 16 bit source. 16 bit decoding should be enough then, right? Should, but is not. While the decoded data boasts the sources' original bit depth again, something new and eerie has been added... and I don´t mean the inlying compression errors produced by the encoder. No, this thing from the crypt is additional quantization noise produced by the decoder. Cause: truncating floating point values to integer values. These additional artifacts are produced only because the decoder works at half speed and with half of its options."
 
I recommend reading the full article and you'll understand why a cheap Win 10 tablet, like the less than $200 Onda Air V919 with foobar2000, can become very attractive over hires DAPs for mixtures of lossy and lossless playback (aside from storage capacity, which is less of an issue with lossy hires that foobar2000 would play perfectly), especially with a DragonFly DAC/Amp or the like.
 
Given all this, I think I'm asking a legitimate question about lossy performance of this device and particularly whether 32-bit floating point decoders are used for lossy files.  I don't believe Marlene will get one of these just to measure it, but it would be sufficient for me to know that the xDuoo X3 decodes in 32-bit floating point resolution for lossy files, like Fiio devices or foobar2000, to determine if this device is something I will buy.  Maybe RockBox's lossy decoders are 32-bit floating point and so doesn't have this issue, in which case this device in dual-boot becomes viable for me, though is still unattractive for a mainstream audience who will never RockBox anything their whole life.
 
I misspoke in the part you found interesting and meant to say that I assume this is a common issue for hires players, including TOTL DAPs, since Fiio appears to be the only portable claiming 32-bit float lossy decoding as recently as 2015, when Marlene wrote that X5 review.  I admit that I overstated that as a claim based in anecdote rather than an assumption based on logical deduction.  My bad, I was rushing a little through that post in the end and I doubt too many people willing to shell out TOTL dough bother to try lossy playback, let alone measure them for quantized noise from unnecessarily low resolution lossy decoders, so the anecdotal evidence may not exist and almost certainly objective measurements do not.
 
 

 
May 11, 2016 at 3:20 AM Post #3,206 of 5,194
  I would be interested to know the results of the measurement, I would just need to find the time and proper equipment to do so.

That's always the catch, but if you did perform such tests, I believe you'd find a willing audience.
 
Edit:  If nothing else you can always look at Marlene's blog for a reasonable test setup.
 
May 11, 2016 at 3:22 AM Post #3,207 of 5,194
I have the equipment to do it, I'd just need to get it all set up and take the time to do it all... one day perhaps.
 
(e: One other bug in the stock OS that annoys me but isn't a huge deal  -  sometimes song tags are accidentally mis-interpreted and rendered in Mandarin but that's more of an annoyance than anything)
 
May 11, 2016 at 4:33 AM Post #3,209 of 5,194
One of my major plans for next time I actually have some free time between work and life is to hack USB DAC support into our Rockbox port. Generally those sorts of things are done from port to port as every device needs so much fine tuning, that if I focus my efforts on the X3 then we could be that much closer to a sub-$100 Rockbox and USB DAC capable DAP.
 
I have a feeling XVortex wouldn't mind someone else helping on the effort. Plus as much as I want to believe we will see XDuoo X3 FW 1.2 one day, I'm also willing to accept we may never see such a thing, so I really hope continuing strong sales doesn't deter them from working on it more.
 
X3-mojo stack anyone?
biggrin.gif
 
 
May 11, 2016 at 7:47 AM Post #3,210 of 5,194
Hi!
 
Newbie question. Just got the xDuoo X3 to replace my Sandisk Sansa Clip Zip+ as my OTG DAP. Just want to ask if theiBasso Bushmaster D14 is good enough to be used as amp? Anyone using it? I'll be using if ever the iBasso Bushmaster D14 also for my laptop when I'm home.
 
Also, how long would be the burn-in time for this?
Any amp recommendation? I'm eyeing on Fiio E12A, Cayin C5 or Aune B1.
However have to test it if I really need it.
Frankly speaking, don't heard any difference right now if I compared it with my phone (Sony Xperia Z2) and Sandisk Sansa Clip Zip+ so I'm not sure once I burn-ed there would be a difference or by using an amp. Although initially I heard some difference and it sounded like a neutral but I'm not sure if it's because of the volume.
 
My audio files are MP3 (320 KBPS).
 
Just Rockbox'ed it as well.
 
My IEM is RHA MA750i and planning to buy Philips Fidelio X2.
I also have Audio Technica M50X but really don't like it.
My preferred sound are wide soundstage, bright, detailed, clarity and decent to good bass.
 
Thanks in advance!
 

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