[Drewligarchy]

I remember reading the Dave has "lossless" digital volume control, but I actually never saw the specifics of how they achieved this and the lack of detailed info immediately raised my BS flag. Digital volume attenuation without bit loss is impossible. Perhaps Chord is controlling the volume in the analog stage and it isn't really digital?!? The only way I could see Chord's "lossless" digital control working is if they jacked up the digital volume processing to 32 bits as this would (probably) reduce bit loss beyond the level human hearing...but that still isn't "lossless". If that's what they did, then they should call it something else because as stated, Chord means "lossless" in the same way MQA meant "lossless" haha.

The amount of baseless claims, paid-for-reviews, and propaganda in the audio industry is absolutely stunning.

I hear you. I remember reading an explanation from Rob Watts somewhere - but I don't remember where.

Anyhow, I have used Dave in preamp mode as well as in DAC mode - and I, for the life of me, can't detect any changes in sound quality. I'm also severely attenuating the signal so in some cases I'm at -25. I had an Auralic Vega that sounded like crap as soon as you were 10 steps away from 100%. Same thing with a Bricasti M1 - so I have heard the negative effects digital volume control can have.

I don't agree with everything Rob Watts says (for instance I like the sound of R2R DACs), but based on my ears - both my Chord Dave and Chord Hugo 2 sound completely transparent regardless of attenuation. Is it completely lossless? I don't have any idea as I don't know the engineering enough. That said, it is quite good to my ears.

EDIT: For those interested, here is Rob Watts technical explanation https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-1176#post-16468645

 

[littlej0e]

I agree with your sentiment on BS done by audio companies, gear reviewers and such. But, on the other side, we all strive for best quality and sometimes we convince ourselves we hear bits. I for one don’t, and volume knob on my Bartok does not bother me, that it is implemented in the digital domain (I assume?). My ears are so crap I need a balance shifted by 3dB anyway. So maybe lossless digital volume knob isn’t mathematically possible (I really don’t know), BUT, it could still be a “decent” volume knob, aka, transparent enough. As for lossless formats, I agree with you that it is bad when marketing lets us believe word lossless means lossless (like your example in MQA), but there isn’t subsitute to testing - can you tell a difference between a well recorded/mixed/stored FLAC and its MP3 equivalent? I have failed this test countless of times myself.

Without question you are right. Sound is all that matters (in my opinion at least). As to FLAC vs MP3, my ability to tell the difference was hit and miss at best. On some tracks it was plain as day. On others, I couldn't tell the slightest bit of difference whatsoever. I still haven't figured out why this is (auditory biology?!? Mastering?!?). If Chord or dCS did implement a 32 bit digital volume control, I think it is highly unlikely most people, except for maybe those with the most golden of ears, could ever reliably hear a difference. It all depends on the implementation. But even if they didn't use a 32 bit control, I still wouldn't loose a wink of sleep over the digital degradation as the differences would still be fairly minor for the vast majority of people. But to use your example, just because you or I can't reliably tell the difference doesn't necessarily mean others can't. So using extremely disingenuous marketing terms to willfully mislead people into thinking there will be no difference when there actually could be is flat out wrong and completely unethical. Unfortunately, this type of behavior is so prevalent in the audio industry that it gets harder and harder to separate fact from fiction every day.

A more dramatic example would be if I slapped a "certified nut free" label on my Chinese takeout food, even though I knew for a fact there are slight amounts of nuts in it. I know as a food prepper that it won't matter to 95+% of people (including some who claim to be allergic) because they just won't know any better. But that one guy that just so happens to be actually deathly allergic to nuts is about to have a very bad day and a swift trip to the emergency room.

 

[littlej0e]

I hear you. I remember reading an explanation from Rob Watts somewhere - but I don't remember where.

Anyhow, I have used Dave in preamp mode as well as in DAC mode - and I, for the life of me, can't detect any changes in sound quality. I'm also severely attenuating the signal so in some cases I'm at -25. I had an Auralic Vega that sounded like crap as soon as you were 10 steps away from 100%. Same thing with a Bricasti M1 - so I have heard the negative effects digital volume control can have.

I don't agree with everything Rob Watts says (for instance I like the sound of R2R DACs), but based on my ears - both my Chord Dave and Chord Hugo 2 sound completely transparent regardless of attenuation. Is it completely lossless? I don't have any idea as I don't know the engineering enough. That said, it is quite good to my ears.

I agree wholeheartedly. I sincerely doubt I could tell the difference either and if you can't then that's all that matters in my opinion. Maybe Chord does use a 32 bit. Good on them if they do (and they probably should).

I just take issue with the misleading BS marketing because I've personally been burned by it. Not from Chord specifically, but from other companies (and dealers) because I just didn't know any better.

 

[mammal]

A more dramatic example with be if I slapped a "certified nut free" label on my Chinese takeout food, even though I knew for a fact there are slight amounts of nuts in my food. I know as a food prepper that it won't matter to 95+% of people because they just won't know any better. But that one guy that just so happens to be actually deathly allergic to nuts is about to have a very bad day and a swift trip to the emergency room.

I don’t like onion (just taste, no allergy), and every time I order meal, I ask them to not include it. Unfortunately, most of the time they don’t care and give me half an onion anyway. The only way to make sure they pay attention is to say I am allergic and if I spot a tiny bit of onion, they will need to call me an ambulance. Works every time, and that’s why people lie, to get results they want, including audio companies.

Without question you are right. Sound is all that matters (in my opinion at least). As to FLAC vs MP3, my ability to tell the difference was hit and miss at best. On some tracks it was plain as day. On others, I couldn't tell the slightest bit of difference whatsoever. I still haven't figured out why this is (auditory biology?!? Mastering?!?). If Chord or dCS did implement a 32 bit digital volume control, I think it is highly unlikely most people, except for maybe those with the most golden of ears, could ever reliably hear a difference. It all depends on the implementation. But even if they didn't use a 32 bit control, I still wouldn't loose a wink of sleep over the digital degradation as the differences would still be fairly minor for the vast majority of people. But to use your example, just because you or I can't reliably tell the difference doesn't necessarily mean others can't. So using extremely disingenuous marketing terms to willfully mislead people into thinking there will be no difference when there actually could be is flat out wrong and completely unethical. Unfortunately, this type of behavior is so prevalent in the audio industry that it gets harder and harder to separate fact from fiction every day.

Absolutely agree, I could not have said it better.

 

[littlej0e]

I don’t like onion (just taste, no allergy), and every time I order meal, I ask them to not include it. Unfortunately, most of the time they don’t care and give me half an onion anyway. The only way to make sure they pay attention is to say I am allergic and if I spot a tiny bit of onion, they will need to call me an ambulance. Works every time, and that’s why people lie, to get results they want, including audio companies.

I am totally STEALING THIS!

 

[ColoradoJordan]

Lumin claims the same digital "lossless" volume control using Leedh processing. I just set my Lumin to 100% output and control the volume directly from the WA33.

 

[littlej0e]

EDIT: For those interested, here is Rob Watts technical explanation https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-1176#post-16468645

This was both fascinating and the epitome of what drives me absolutely friggin' NUTS. Using digital truncation or noise shaping of any kind to artificially match signals or input bits to output bits is not "lossless." Using "aggressive 11th order noise shaping" to keep the resolution stable enough to give people the illusion of lossless digital volume control is a very clever solution, but still isn't objectively lossless (but it is likely the reason why you, along with 95% of people on planet earth, probably can't hear a difference in resolution. Again, it's a very cool solution!). But you can't add, remove, alter, or "shape" something then call it unedited...or objectively lossless. It's complete and total BS. MQA tried perpetuating the exact same carefully phrased slight-of-hand "subjectively lossless" crap (what the hell does that even mean anyway?!?).

Regardless, my argument that the Dave isn't truly "lossless" is extremely pedantic and almost completely pointless seeing as Chord's DSP solution itself is incredibly clever and very useful in keeping the resolution stabilized for the vast majority of people using it. Again, I sincerely doubt anyone but those with the very best hearing would ever be able to sniff the slightest bit of difference. That said, it is still 100% misleading and unethical marketing as they are flat out lying to people.

Lumin claims the same digital "lossless" volume control using Leedh processing.

Yep, yet another example of 100% BS in the audio industry - what a shocker. Uhhh, it's literally everywhere...

I just set my Lumin to 100% output and control the volume directly from the WA33.

To my knowledge, this is one of the only surefire ways to ensure no loss of resolution with volume attenuation as you are moving it completely to the analog stage. That said, I doubt most people could hear a difference, even if you left it on the Lumin. It all depends on how they implemented their DSP tech. Besides, who knows? Maybe the analog control on the WA33 EE JPS is total crap and you are better of using the Lumen...haha (it sure as hell better not be for what we paid for it!!!).

Regardless, I really hate marketing people, especially in the audio industry.

 

[Drewligarchy]

Lots of discussion about different tubes in this thread, but I haven't been able to locate impressions for different tubes. And, since we are all using the a variation on the same circuit: SE, JPS, Elite, Elite JPS - ostensibly the effect of each brand of tube will have a similar effect on our systems.

We all also have a point of reference via the stock tubes.

As I've posted, I have just started using the Psvane ACME 2a3 in the past couple days. They are brighter than the stock tubes, though not bright per se - and very neutral. They sound "truer" than the stock tubes as I found the stock tubes slightly dark. Resolution and imaging have significantly improved. Bass quantity seems slightly reduced to a more neutral level, partially because of the slight increase in brightness. All that said, they have only started to burn in so my opinions may change. I have also replaced the stock rectifier with a 596 USAF

While there are lots of 2a3 tubes, with Woo's upgrades and common upgrade tubes used in the forum, I see:

EML Solid Plates 2a3
EML Mesh Plates 3a3
EML 300B that's compatible with the Wa33
Psvane ACME 2a3
Psvane WR 2a3
KR Audio 2A3
A variety of NOS Tubes

For Rectifiers:
KR HP 274B
EML 274B
Takatsuki 274B
596 USAF

I'm sure I missed some.

For driver tubes, I haven't seen anything other that the EH 6C45pi Gold Pin

If you use any of the above upgrade tubes (or others), can you describe the changes you notice from the stock tubes, with your headphone of choice?

 

[Drewligarchy]

Wow - these tubes are really good. Bass is back in a big way and most of the brightness is gone. There is an ever so slight etch on some vocals, but really only when its in the recording.

Most importantly, the sound is addicting. I started listening at 8 pm and next thing I know it's 6 am. I couldn't pull myself away. I love the sound of my system, but at a certain point - I'm satisfied and I go to bed. I literally couldn't stop listening. I can't remember the last time that happened, other than when I originally got the Wa33.

These are not lay back and relax tubes with the Abyss, they are I'm on the edge of my seat watching a move and can't wait to see what happens next.

While the Susvara may be a different story (though it sounds incredible with this amp), I think the 33 is THE pairing for The Abyss. Admittedly I haven't listened to speaker amps with it - but it far surpasses the Formula S, HPA4, and certainly my v281. It fills in the mids in the way only tubes can, refines the treble and makes it sweeter, and the it's got amazing slam. It's completely effortless. Feels like the 33 isn't even breaking a sweat.

 

[pippen99]

A response and a question.

First the question. I am currently using XLR splitters to run both my amps(WA33 EE and Cavalli Lau) off the balanced outputs of my dac(dCS Rossini). Is there any advantage to ditching the splitters and running the Lau off the preamp out of the WA33. If any of you are doing something similar what are your volume settings and what is the volume controlling unit?

Response: Forget EML. The owner is a complete bandit. If you have issues the dealer will refer you to JacMusic in Germany who will do everything in their power to ignore and or delay any warranty solutions. I am currently at four months on attempting to get 300Bs replaced. I have a quad of EML 2A3s in the WA33 now and they sound good. But I know that if I have problems I will be months getting a replacement if ever. If I ever get my replacements I will sell and or trade both EML quads for KRs.
As for rectifiers I have used a Western Electric 422A, KR274B and Tak 274B. Even though my first Tak died at 13 months with no give or take on the warranty I was unsatisfied with either the WE or KR and went back to the Tak. The sound is fuller and better defined than with the others. The Tak 274B is the best rectifier made today!

P.S.: At the time I purchased the 300Bs Woo was noncommittal about using the 300B in the WA33. They have since stated they do not recommend the use of the 300B in the WA33

 

[Roasty]

@pippen99 sucky situation to be in..

i've been listening with the 300b 2.5v, upgraded driver tubes and tak274b with the utopia. the sound is just about as good as it gets for me...
yes the KR2a3 were very good too, with tighter and slightly punchier bass and a more fast, immediate and forward presentation, but the 300b 2.5v low end and slight bloom and roundness, and its lush mid section, just seem to raise the Utopia sound to the next level. i was initially going to sell the EML tubes once i had them back, but i'm having second thoughts now. so far, the tubes are completely silent and no funny pinging or popping/puffing noises from either channel. also no channel imbalance too.
i know Woo doesnt recommend them, but geez they do sound good (when working properly).
too bad about the difference in appearances for both pairs, but i guess it is something i can live with.

i'd say, for those who havent already taken the plunge, but want to give them a shot, be prepared for a long RMA escapade with EML/Jacmusic that can stretch on for months should any issues arise with the tubes.

 

[pippen99]

My tubes got to Jac on 04/15. Can you refresh my memory of when your tubes reached Germany so I can mention that next time I email Jac?

 

[Roasty]

My tubes got to Jac on 04/15. Can you refresh my memory of when your tubes reached Germany so I can mention that next time I email Jac?

He received on 5th April

 

[littlej0e]

I feel so bad for you guys. You deserve so much better after investing that kind of money instead of getting the runaround and/or flat out hoodwinked. Thanks for posting about it and letting me, and others, learn from your mistakes.

 

[Drewligarchy]

The Wa33 turns the LCD 4 into a different headphone, and makes me realize how underappreciated it is in the community.

While I primarily listen to the Abyss, the LCD 4 is the TOTL Headphone I’ve had longest. I loved Audeze from early on in this hobby, though quickly moved to high end electrostats 009/007/he 60, Carbon, etc. I started with the LCD XC and quickly moved to the LCD 3 and then 4, but because of my infatuation with the 009 it played second fiddle through my Violectric V281. I actually also used different DACs for the two headphones: an Yggdrasil for the 009, and an Auralic Vega for the LCD 4. I always appreciated the LCD4, and listened to it quite a bit, but not nearly as much as the 009.

Alas I tried the Abyss at CanJam a couple years ago through a Wa33 Elite playing songs in the key of life. What followed was a conversation with my 009 which started with “It’s not you, it’s me”. An Abyss TC followed with a Formula S and Powerman, and with it most of my attention. But the LCD 4 was always there, and while we didn’t hang out as frequently - when we did, though, we always were able to pick up where we left off, like an old, lifelong friend.

In the interim, I had upgraded my front end significantly with a Dave/MScaler - and then moved to the Wa33 which was a huge upgrade from the Formula S with the Abyss, and an even bigger upgrade with the LCD4. While most of my time is still spent with the Abyss, and occasional daliances with the Susvara - I’m spending more and more time with the LCD 4.

it’s like dating someone who you also dated as a teenager, and both of you have changed. All her good qualities have evolved, she’s become more refined, more classy -and more sophisticated - but under it all you can still see that beautiful girl you met when you were 16.

i’ve seen some of you use the LCD 4 with the 33 as your primary or only headphone. While obviously based on personal preference, part of me couldn’t help but think - why? There are more impressive headphones out there, and given the amp you’ve invested in, you could likely get any headphone you want.

All I can say is, now I understand. The LCD 4 has the most beautiful mids and tone of any headphone I’ve listened to. With my current tubes it only magnifies, enhances and refines it in a manner that’s, quite simply, beautiful. It’s a world class headphones, and I believe will eventually be considered a classic - despite any perceived “flaws” it might have. From a sheer musicality standpoint, it does so much right.

Edit: The album I was listening to on the LCD 4 that inspired this post:

If The Moon Turns Green by Diana Panton