[preproman]

   
Yes.

 
Which one - Theory?

 

[Mambosenior]

My experience predates yours by at least two decade! Carry on being careful, until that day and then, poof

The possibility of "poof" exists in all parts of life. Using a speaker amp for headphones isn't exactly parachute jumping...or marrying one of the Kardashians.

 

[blades]

The possibility of "poof" exists in all parts of life. Using a speaker amp for headphones isn't exactly parachute jumping...or marrying one of the Kardashians.

 
Nor is it of any value.

 

[gjc11028]

Nor is it of any value.

Curious, what headphone amp do you use with the he6? I would like to try it

 

[Happy Camper]

Blades, your sound science is showing. If you haven't tried it, your comments are not addressing the question. The question was asked why those who like speaker amps with the HE-6s like them. We're giving answers but you want to refute our comments.

 

[Mambosenior]

Blades, your sound science is showing. If you haven't tried it, your comments are not addressing the question. The question was asked why those who like speaker amps with the HE-6s like them. We're giving answers but you want to refute our comments.

(Oops, did I cause Blades offense with the Kardashians comment?)

 

[blades]

No, you're just dealing with someone who has done hundreds of bias controlled listening tests.  I can assure you that overpowering a transducer is of no sonic value. The transducer will draw as much current as it needs and no more.   Unused potential power is simply unused.  I think it is silly and possibly damaging to allow headphones to potentially dissipate that kind of power and there is absolutely no value to it. 
 
If I didn't answer a question, then help me understand what you want to know.  My answer to the OP is that, if someone thinks overpowering their headphones makes them sound better that there is nothing in the laws of physics to support that and bias controlled tests have also proven that it doesn't help anything.  Therefore, those that prefer an amp that overpowers the headphones are suffering from hearing bias if they think they hear a difference.  Run a level matched blind test using a headphone amp and a power amp both of which have inaudible distortions and you will discover that truth for yourself.

 

[Happy Camper]

Blades, we've all listened to this headphone with plenty of amps. Many started with headphone amps and moved to speaker amps and found the same thing. The bigger amps provided a better sound. The question remains as to the definition of better, but the results are documented in the HE-6 threads. If you have no experience with this, how do you expect to offer advice? The "an amp is an amp" analogy don't work. There are differences of presentation on these headphones. Do you have a formula for presentation differences? It may or may not be the extra power but if the larger wattage amps give them a better presentation, why do you claim we are diluted in our judgment?

 

[blades]

Blades, we've all listened to this headphone with plenty of amps. Many started with headphone amps and moved to speaker amps and found the same thing. The bigger amps provided a better sound. The question remains as to the definition of better, but the results are documented in the HE-6 threads. If you have no experience with this, how do you expect to offer advice? The "an amp is an amp" analogy don't work. There are differences of presentation on these headphones. Do you have a formula for presentation differences? It may or may not be the extra power but if the larger wattage amps give them a better presentation, why do you claim we are diluted in our judgment?

 
Expectation bias.  It just takes one person to claim the audible difference and that expectation will transfer to others.  Where do you think all the cable nonsense originated (hint: audio magazines.)  All you need to do is conduct a bias controlled, level matched comparison to understand what I'm talking about.  All I'm saying is that a bias controlled test will make those audible differences disappear.  How do I know?  I've done hundreds of bias controlled listening tests.  Feel free to prove me wrong.  But giving me the same subjective argument I've heard a jillion times isn't meaningful at all.
 
Now there is one thing that can mess up the sound presentation of headphones and that is having an amplifier with too high an output impedance.  If you were making your comparison between a high impedance source and a low impedance power amp, then what you say makes sense.  But it has zero to do with the power.  Do a blind test and choose a low impedance model on the headphone amp side.  As long as you remove all the potential bias and level match accurately, there won't be an audible difference.  I'm certain of it. 
 
As we all know, power amps designed to drive speakers all have very low output impedance so there won't be an issue with low impedance heaphones such as yours.  Some headphone amps have output impedances higher than your headphones.  That's a no no.

 

[Happy Camper]

Bias works both ways.

 

[blades]

Bias works both ways.

 
 
Brilliant.  That certainly convinced me. 

 

[Happy Camper]

Brilliant.  That certainly convinced me. 

Pretty lame isn't it? That's what we read when you shovel it.

 

[Claritas]

Brilliant.  That certainly convinced me. 

You didn't persuade me. All you said was, "Run a test." That and, "I've run lots of tests." Have you ever actually tried HE6? It's OK to theorize, but I think you need to be upfront about the limits of your experience too.

 

[ab initio]

You guys need to be careful here. Attacking blades' position by attacking him personally doesn't address the validity (or invalidity) of his argument. Trying to discredit an argument by discrediting the person making the argument is argumentum ad hominem. Theory is perfectly acceptable science. Your GPS wouldn't exist if it weren't for Einstein developing the theory of relativity.
 
Blades, in sound science it is very useful to present results from your tests for others to see when you claim to have performed tests. It gives more people the chance to see the data and come to their own conclusions. If you're going to claim many tests as evidence to support your position, you'd better share your tests.
 
Going back and forth with "you're wrong and I am right" leads nowhere. I think both sides need to bring actual evidence to the table to support their respective positions in this discussion.
 
The reason why this thread exists is because there really isn't any known physical reason why a (relatively) hugely powerful speaker amp would be required to drive the HE6 where only a few watts would make the headphone unbearably loud. If we consider the goal to be highest fidelity signal reproduction, then you must remember that given two amps producing identical voltage signals to the same headphones, the sound output will be exactly the same, regardless of the brand on the amp, the technology in the amp, the power rating of the amp, etc. etc. etc. Therefore, if speaker amps are required to achieve the highest audible fidelity from the HE-6, the question is why? Why can't even the beefy, overpowered amps (like the 8W Schiit Mjolnir) achieve the highest fidelity?
 
If the "improvements" aren't related to High Fidelity, then the question is how to speaker amps color the sound? What is preferred about the coloration imparted by said speaker amp (and perhaps by the impedance matching filter network it sounds like folks sometimes need to use)?
 
Finally, the last question is do headphone amps vs speaker amp actually sound different? This question can be scientifically tested through properly conducted blind testing. Does anybody have the means to set up a test for this? If they don't actually sound different, then why are many folks convinced otherwise? (I can see the subjectivist folks cringing at the thought of objectivists shouting "confirmation bias" again).
 
Cheers

 

[blades]

You didn't persuade me. All you said was, "Run a test." That and, "I've run lots of tests." Have you ever actually tried HE6? It's OK to theorize, but I think you need to be upfront about the limits of your experience too.

 
But your tests haven't been bias controlled tests.  My comments relate to any headphone and any amplifier.  And I have no interest in persuading you of anything.  My purpose is to help beginners to audio have better information in making decisions.
 
I'll provide a little background.  In the late 1990's an audiophile group of which I was a member spent a couple of years doing bias controlled listening tests.  These are comparisons between two products which are level matched and compared without the listener knowing which product is which.   I apologize for the fact that we didn't document the tests but we did them for ourselves, not to prove anything to anybody.  What we discovered were the same things that other had discovered by doing bias controlled listening tests.
 
One of things we learned is that modern, properly designed high fidelity solid state amplifiers are good enough now that none of them alter the sound they amplify to any audible extent.  In order to get an amplifier to alter the signal audibly it has to be badly designed or have audible distortion like tube amps have, be defective or be used beyond its design parameters.  We tested amplifiers ranging in price from $100 to $5000 and found audible differences only in tube amps and in amps that didn't measure well.  Understand that we didn't test headphone amps because, in those days, headphone amps were built into receivers, preamps and integrated amps.  There weren't many dedicated external  headphone amps like we have today.
 
There is an audiophile myth that having unused reserve power affects sound quality.  It is absolutely a myth.  If it were true we would have found audible differences between powerful amps and weak amps that otherwise performed as a straight wire.  As long as no units were stressed, this simply didn't happen.  Neither price nor rated power affected sound quality.
 
Why does one buy a separate amplifier for headphones?  I'm not sure but I can think of two good reasons.  One would be to allow the user to play louder without distortion than the original amp.  The other is to have a proper impedance match.  Connecting a 50 ohm headphone to a 600 ohm output on a computer sound card, for instance, is not good.  Amplifiers are good at dealing with loads that are higher in impedance than their own output impedance.  They don't perform well when the load has a lower impedance.  Amplifiers designed to drive speakers all have low output impedances because speakers generally present a lower impedance to the amp than a headphone. So if you are comparing that to an amp with a high output impedance then I would accept your findings.
 
If you hear better sound from the speaker terminals of a power amp than you do from something like a low impedance headphone amp with levels matched exactly, most likely you are being guided by hearing bias.  Hearing bias is what causes people to hear audible differences from different copper wires.  The differences are shortcuts their brains take when they cannot clearly discern an audible difference.   It happens to everyone.  When audible differences are clear, our brains deal with them normally.  When audible differences are very subtle to non existent and we ask our ears to compare them, our brain takes shortcuts.  It factors in visual inputs, expectation, preference etc to get the job done.  It is an audible illusion in the same way optical illusions work and for the same reasons.
 
So here is a proper test for you.  It takes at least 2 people.  Set up a source that can run through two amplifiers at once.  Match levels between the amplifiers to within a couple of millivolts at the headphone.  No guessing.  Use a digital multimeter on a test tone.  Block the listener's view of what is going on.  Play some music and have the person behind the blind switch from amp to amp randomly so that sometimes the same amp plays more than once in a row.  With each switch ask the listener which amp is playing.  Have the person behind the blind score the answers right or wrong.   If the scores are close to 50-50 right vs. wrong then we say there is no audible difference.  If the answers are 70% or more on either the right or wrong side, we say there is a clear audible difference.  In between we would say the results are not clear.  There may or may not be a subtle audible difference.  Try it with different listeners.  My bet is that, if you do it properly, there won't be an audible difference between the low impedance headphone amp and the speaker terminals on the power amp.  It is boring, fussy and time consuming but it will resolve the issue as to whether the phenomenon is an audible difference or the result of bias.