Why would 24 bit / 192 khz flac sound any better than 16 bit / 44.1 khz flac if both are lossless (if at all)?

[fuzun]

   
Can you give me a scientific study that backs up your 'facts'?

It is only a question. Do you want facts about being sound waves are energy?

 

[castleofargh]

  Well, yes beyond 20khz is inaudible but they are still "energy" and they go through ear canal as well. Maybe even though we don't hear, can they make difference at the audio we perceive as stressing or making resonances some parts of brain or head?

but if it's not audible, is it audio? ^_^
there are plenty of energy sources hitting us all day long, but if we lack the receptors they go unnoticed. so how significant is the ultrasonic content of a song? I'd guess it's not unless it starts affecting the playback system in a negative way.
when you look at albums, you usually have very little loudness in the ultrasounds compared to the rest of the music. and ultrasounds as physical pressure consciously felt on the skin requires a really loud signal (I think it was above 100db but you'd have to find the paper to get the value they found).
last but not least, the guy mastering the album also fails to hear ultrasounds, so how do you think he masters that area?

 

[fuzun]

 
but if it's not audible, is it audio? ^_^
there are plenty of energy sources hitting us all day long, but if we lack the receptors they go unnoticed. so how significant is the ultrasonic content of a song? I'd guess it's not unless it starts affecting the playback system in a negative way.
when you look at albums, you usually have very little loudness in the ultrasounds compared to the rest of the music. and ultrasounds as physical pressure consciously felt on the skin requires a really loud signal (I think it was above 100db but you'd have to find the paper to get the value they found).
last but not least, the guy mastering the album also fails to hear ultrasounds, so how do you think he masters that area?

I agree with you. I mean they are inaudible in a direct way.
 
Also there are a lot of energy sources but how much are them mechanic? Due to natural selection, our body is very capable of perceiving mechanical energy only if it has enough power. Unlike electromagnetic energy, we really do not need any specific receptors to perceive mechanical energy because almost our entire body is somehow capable of interpreting mechanical stress (if they have enough power). The thing is, if you have specific receptors, you get proper feedback according to characteristics of the wave. However, like you said I don't think this should be considered "audio".
 
But I am not sure if these indirect effects would make sq any better. Beyond this point, scientific works needed. My personal opinion is that they may effect in a positive way because people who make music get that indirect effect too (if that statement is true). And we would like to listen music how it was intended to sound. (Mastering, ... not involved. This is only in theory.)
 
Considering low levels of ultrasound found in music files due to cropping, bad(?) mastering(?), (I think) It would be impossible to perceive them even indirect form.
 

 and ultrasounds as physical pressure consciously felt on the skin requires a really loud signal (I think it was above 100db but you'd have to find the paper to get the value they found).

 
If you take hand skin (where energy reflects to epidermal hand cells), yes it needs big magnitude. But ear is very complex organ and there are different type of cells at where stereocilia located. Maybe these cells need less power than hand cells to notice it to brain via neurons?
If we can make them notice the brain, we still wont be getting that as "audio" or "sound". It is a thing that I cant describe because of lack of knowledge and english. But I think it like this: When you listen extreme bassy musics, you think like your brain is shaking (maybe not correct term but you got the point). That "shaking feeling" is not audio but it is a intended thing to experience while listening music. Because music makers got that feeling too.
 
 
Sorry for bad English. I hope you get the point.

 

[Asuhra]

Argh!!!
Just wrote a giant reply responding to everyone about the subl1minals and re-sampling. Went to dinner, clicked preview before posting and everything disappeared. Just f.... great...
Restarting, this time summarized.
Subl1minal Audios are done in the frequencies range between 15.5Khz and 20Khz because of the DAPs and DACs limits but that means you can only put so much info on the 44.1Khz samples because there is no more headroom. At 48Khz you have much more headroom to put info between the 15.5 and 20Khz Freq range when doing subliminals (it's a mathematical thing). I am guessing that's why 44.1Khz samples sound so much worst.
It has been proven by dog trainers that you can hear at least up to 30Khz because they got affected by the subl1minals meant for their dogs @ 30Khz range. I have proven that on myself time and time again.
As for the resolution, that has also been proven that some people notice differences up till 96Khz. More than that is placebo, at least for the conscious mind. 192Khz resolution seems really overkill, let alone more.
The subconscious mind is really the one in control 90% of the time you're awake and every decision you make is made at the subconscious level first. The conscious mind is only really there to obey the subconscious unless you have tremendous will strength and can overpower it.
That said, you can be listening to the most stunning track of all time but if that track has something above the 15.5Khz range that your subconscious mind doesn't like, like noise, distortion or even bad subliminal messages you will never like the track and you will have no clue why. For your conscious mind the music sounds amazing and wants more of it but since the subconscious is the one in control and he doesn't like it he will make you not like the song and your conscious mind will come up with all sorts of nonsense reasons for why you don't like the song.
I could add one of my subliminals to any song you want and reprogram your subconscious mind to hear the sound more 3D like, crystal clear, etc and it will happen sooner or later, depends how long the subconscious resists the suggestions, if he resists it at all.
That's the reason why I would like DAPs and DACs to go at least till the 30Khz range, not to listen to music but to create out of this world subliminals. I could put several layers of messages at different Frequency ranges instead of only being able to put them between the 15.5 and 20Khz range.
Btw, to listen to music tracks I completely cut the EQ above the 15Khz range because God knows what crap can be in the inaudible range and how the subconscious might interpret it. I don't consciously hear anything at above 14Khz anyway so I can cut it all.
What I do is I have 2 audio players, one playing music with freq cut above ~15khz and another player playing my subliminals @ freq above 15.5Khz. This way I'm having fun while also working on myself. 2 in 1 solution. Until someone develops a DAP that can do this I can only use my android with rocket player playing the subl1minals and N7Player playing my music.
I only work with professionals and corporations because my subl1minals are at a point where I could get someone to kill himself in just hours so they have to be highly controlled like class A substances but you can still get nice subliminals for the general public and get more info about subl1minals from 1ndigo M1nd Labs which I think is the second best producer in the World right now. He as a long ass way to go and has some atrocious subl1minals but he also has some nice pearls between all the crap, including the Free Self Confidence subliminal that I recommend. Anyway, he has the best forum on the subject so if you want to know more about this topic go take a look.
I just find it amazing how we go through our entire lives without knowing a thing about the subconscious mind and how deeply it affect us.
 
[edit] Replaced some of the i's with 1's so this info doesn't show up in search engines. Don't want publicity for myself and not interested in promoting others for free.

 

[Asuhra]

What the hell is wrong with my text, doesn't fit the screen??
 
edit: nevermind, it's fixed but lost the formating.

 

[spruce music]

  Argh!!!
Just wrote a giant reply responding to everyone about the subliminals and re-sampling. Went to dinner, clicked preview before posting and everything disappeared. Just f.... great...
Restarting, this time summarized.
Subliminal Audios are done in the frequencies range between 15.5Khz and 20Khz because of the DAPs and DACs limits but that means you can only put so much info on the 44.1Khz samples because there is no more headroom. At 48Khz you have much more headroom to put info between the 15.5 and 20Khz Freq range when doing subliminals (it's a mathematical thing). I am guessing that's why 44.1Khz samples sound so much worst.
It has been proven by dog trainers that you can hear at least up to 30Khz because they got affected by the subliminals meant for their dogs @ 30Khz range. I have proven that on myself time and time again.
As for the resolution, that has also been proven that some people notice differences up till 96Khz. More than that is placebo, at least for the conscious mind. 192Khz resolution seems really overkill, let alone more.
The subconscious mind is really the one in control 90% of the time you're awake and every decision you make is made at the subconscious level first. The conscious mind is only really there to obey the subconscious unless you have tremendous will strength and can overpower it.
That said, you can be listening to the most stunning track of all time but if that track has something above the 15.5Khz range that your subconscious mind doesn't like, like noise, distortion or even bad subliminal messages you will never like the track and you will have no clue why. For your conscious mind the music sounds amazing and wants more of it but since the subconscious is the one in control and he doesn't like it he will make you not like the song and your conscious mind will come up with all sorts of nonsense reasons for why you don't like the song.
I could add one of my subliminals to any song you want and reprogram your subconscious mind to hear the sound more 3D like, crystal clear, etc and it will happen sooner or later, depends how long the subconscious resists the suggestions, if he resists it at all.
That's the reason why I would like DAPs and DACs to go at least till the 30Khz range, not to listen to music but to create out of this world subliminals. I could put several layers of messages at different Frequency ranges instead of only being able to put them between the 15.5 and 20Khz range.
Btw, to listen to music tracks I completely cut the EQ above the 15Khz range because God knows what crap can be in the inaudible range and how the subconscious might interpret it. I don't consciously hear anything at above 14Khz anyway so I can cut it all.
What I do is I have 2 audio players, one playing music with freq cut above ~15khz and another player playing my subliminals @ freq above 15.5Khz. This way I'm having fun while also working on myself. 2 in 1 solution. Until someone develops a DAP that can do this I can only use my android with rocket player playing the subliminals and N7Player playing my music.
I only work with professionals and corporations because my subliminals are at a point where I could get someone to kill himself in just hours so they have to be highly controlled like class A substances but you can still get nice subliminals for the general public and get more info about subliminals from Indigo Mind Labs which I think is the second best producer in the World right now. He as a long ass way to go and has some atrocious subliminals but he also has some nice pearls between all the crap, including the Free Self Confidence subliminal that I recommend. Anyway, he has the best forum on the subject so if you want to know more about this topic go take a look.
I just find it amazing how we go through our entire lives without knowing a thing about the subconscious mind and how deeply it affect us.

Okay, go to 48 khz and you get pretty close to nothing extra.  The transition between flat and no response is now 4 khz wide instead of 2050 hz wide.  Both are flat to 20 khz (usually depending on correct reconstruction filtering).   So both 48 and 44.1 khz will give you the same result between 15.5 khz and 20 khz.  If you go to 88 or 96 khz you have flat response to 40 khz.  Plenty more room for your sub-liminals now.  Though I don't belief any of that stuff you wrote.  If your dog trainers are hearing 30 khz, it most likely is IMD reflecting back below the 20 khz range. 

 

[old tech]

   
Yes, there is a thread about it, here you are: http://www.head-fi.org/t/812565/a-meta-analysis-of-high-resolution-audio-perceptual-evaluation-or-how-we-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-hi-res
 
Here's an alternate discussion on it: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/4qoe3y/great_paper_released_a_metaanalysis_of_high/
 
and the first comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/4rjzoa/what_to_listen_for_in_high_resolution_audio/

For a more science/methodology based discussion...
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,112204.0.html

 

[old tech]

  I create the most advanced Audio Subliminals on Earth and the thing I found long ago is that there is an insane difference between 44.1Khz and 48Khz, let alone more Khz. 44.1Khz subliminals sound very harsh, sounds are too congested also, sometimes even the volume has weird spikes after converting to 44Khz which are not present at 48Khz. 48Khz is night and day difference, much smoother sounds, more info can be put on the audio, etc. Now I'm about to venture into the 96Khz world, hoping it will take my subliminals to the next level, although they are already able to change me completely in one day at only 44.1Khz and 48Khz.
 
Also, most DACs and DAPs only go from 20hz to 20Khz Freq Range but I can tell you right now the subconscious mind can hear at least up to 30Khz and it will act on that info put above the 20Khz range.
 
It pisses me off to no end when I see every damn DAC and DAP limited to 20Khz!!!!! So freaking limiting for my work...Arghhhh

 
The search for credible evidence that sound outside the 20-20khz range can be perceived has been the subject at the fringe of audio science for decades.  To date, there still is not any credible evidence.  The closest any experiment has got was the Oohashi study which was not able to be replicated and later rejected.  In contrast there are many well designed experiments over the past decades which found no evidence that humans can perceive these frequencies, at least at sound pressure levels which wouldn't fry the listener.
 
Just because you believe you can perceive them does not make it a fact.  Astrologists also believe that the position of the planets affect personality types and human behaviour but again all the available evidence contradicts it, even if common sense doesn't come into play before hand.
 
The other thing which works against your speculation is that even if it was possible that these out of range frequencies affect the sound within the range, it would only be relevant to the live acoustic event and not a recording of it.  That is because the effect is by definition in the human range of hearing so providing the mike and recording/playback chain can handle 20-20khz those effects will be recorded and played back.  There is no logical reason why in addition the out of range frequencies would also need to be captured in addition to the sound which has been changed by those frequencies.

 

[RRod]

 
when you look at albums, you usually have very little loudness in the ultrasounds compared to the rest of the music. and ultrasounds as physical pressure consciously felt on the skin requires a really loud signal (I think it was above 100db but you'd have to find the paper to get the value they found).

 
Yeah, the math never really works out to anything logical. I just took a 192k album and found the ultrasonic content is 50dB RMS below the stuff <20k. So I guess if people are willing to listen to this at 150dBSPL then perhaps they'll "feel" the ultrasounds, in addition to their skin peeling off…

 

[spruce music]

There is this.  Young adults 18-20 years old with good hearing can hear to 24 khz.  Of course thresholds for that are over 100 db. 
 
http://www.isa-audiology.org/periodicals/1971-2001_Audiology/1984,%20%20Audiology,%20%20Vol.%20%2023/No.%205%20%20(441-524)/Henry%20%20Fast,%20%20Audiology,%201984.pdf
 
You also will notice a flatter response around 14-16 khz with rapidly rising thresholds as you go higher.  The reason for that is the hair-like cells in the ear really respond to 15 khz.  At very high levels they respond weakly a bit above that point.  There are no cells sized to respond to 20 khz actually. 
 
You almost could say human hearing is good to 15 khz with a transition band to 20 khz before no response.  Other research I have read show by age 28-30 only a very small percentage could respond to anything at any level above 20 khz.
 
Music pretty much never has enough energy in those higher frequencies to be heard.  And these are test tones.  If mixed with other sounds such minor response will be fully masked by lower frequencies.   If it worries you, go to 96 khz and you have it covered until humans evolve better hearing at high frequencies. 

 

[reginalb]

  Argh!!!
Just wrote a giant reply responding to everyone about the subliminals and re-sampling. Went to dinner, clicked preview before posting and everything disappeared. Just f.... great...
Restarting, this time summarized.
Subliminal Audios are done in the frequencies range between 15.5Khz and 20Khz because of the DAPs and DACs limits but that means you can only put so much info on the 44.1Khz samples because there is no more headroom. At 48Khz you have much more headroom to put info between the 15.5 and 20Khz Freq range when doing subliminals (it's a mathematical thing). I am guessing that's why 44.1Khz samples sound so much worst.
It has been proven by dog trainers that you can hear at least up to 30Khz because they got affected by the subliminals meant for their dogs @ 30Khz range. I have proven that on myself time and time again.
As for the resolution, that has also been proven that some people notice differences up till 96Khz. More than that is placebo, at least for the conscious mind. 192Khz resolution seems really overkill, let alone more.
The subconscious mind is really the one in control 90% of the time you're awake and every decision you make is made at the subconscious level first. The conscious mind is only really there to obey the subconscious unless you have tremendous will strength and can overpower it.
That said, you can be listening to the most stunning track of all time but if that track has something above the 15.5Khz range that your subconscious mind doesn't like, like noise, distortion or even bad subliminal messages you will never like the track and you will have no clue why. For your conscious mind the music sounds amazing and wants more of it but since the subconscious is the one in control and he doesn't like it he will make you not like the song and your conscious mind will come up with all sorts of nonsense reasons for why you don't like the song.
I could add one of my subliminals to any song you want and reprogram your subconscious mind to hear the sound more 3D like, crystal clear, etc and it will happen sooner or later, depends how long the subconscious resists the suggestions, if he resists it at all.
That's the reason why I would like DAPs and DACs to go at least till the 30Khz range, not to listen to music but to create out of this world subliminals. I could put several layers of messages at different Frequency ranges instead of only being able to put them between the 15.5 and 20Khz range.
Btw, to listen to music tracks I completely cut the EQ above the 15Khz range because God knows what crap can be in the inaudible range and how the subconscious might interpret it. I don't consciously hear anything at above 14Khz anyway so I can cut it all.
What I do is I have 2 audio players, one playing music with freq cut above ~15khz and another player playing my subliminals @ freq above 15.5Khz. This way I'm having fun while also working on myself. 2 in 1 solution. Until someone develops a DAP that can do this I can only use my android with rocket player playing the subliminals and N7Player playing my music.
I only work with professionals and corporations because my subliminals are at a point where I could get someone to kill himself in just hours so they have to be highly controlled like class A substances but you can still get nice subliminals for the general public and get more info about subliminals from Indigo Mind Labs which I think is the second best producer in the World right now. He as a long ass way to go and has some atrocious subliminals but he also has some nice pearls between all the crap, including the Free Self Confidence subliminal that I recommend. Anyway, he has the best forum on the subject so if you want to know more about this topic go take a look.
I just find it amazing how we go through our entire lives without knowing a thing about the subconscious mind and how deeply it affect us.

 
Let's say that this is all true, just for the fun of it. 
 
What's the point? A female Soprano tops out at like 1,200-1,300 Hz, I think Mariah's whistle register squeals are at like 3Khz. 
 
You've got cymbals and piccolos that can produce some pretty high frequencies, but nowhere near 20Khz.
 
So it might be that there are applications for capturing higher frequencies (and there are - some scientific research), but it's not music. If music isn't produced up there, why would you bother creating a device for playing back sound up there for sale to the general public? I don't listen to bats as a leisure activity, personally. 

 

[castleofargh]

 

 
when you look at albums, you usually have very little loudness in the ultrasounds compared to the rest of the music. and ultrasounds as physical pressure consciously felt on the skin requires a really loud signal (I think it was above 100db but you'd have to find the paper to get the value they found).

 
Yeah, the math never really works out to anything logical. I just took a 192k album and found the ultrasonic content is 50dB RMS below the stuff <20k. So I guess if people are willing to listen to this at 150dBSPL then perhaps they'll "feel" the ultrasounds, in addition to their skin peeling off…

you made me think of a new angle. ultrasounds work nicely to disinfect tools, maybe your room is cleaner when you listen to highres music? maybe adding a machine to create some mist would improve the process? is there a correlation between humidity levels and people thinking highres sounds better?

 

[Roseval]

  You've got cymbals and piccolos that can produce some pretty high frequencies, but nowhere near 20Khz.
 

Crash cymbals can go far in excess of 20 kHz
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66957

 

[old tech]

  Crash cymbals can go far in excess of 20 kHz
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66957

And a dog whistle is around 21khz.  Either is moot is far as human hearing is concerned.

 

[Roseval]

  And a dog whistle is around 21khz.  Either is moot is far as human hearing is concerned.

The post I responded to suggested that no musical instrument produces frequencies even near 20 kHz.
That is simple not true.
 
Frequencies above the upper treshold of our hearing we cannot hear by definition.
But content above this threshold can generate IMD that maps into out audible range.