[Gr8Desire]

I must say, I am a bit confused.
 
Many audiophiles love tubes but will never consider a graphical equalizer. Isn't this a fundamental contradiction?  
 
Tubes only do basic two things: change frequency response and add distortion*.  

*distortion includes errors in the time dimension. It also includes errors in the frequency dimension (i.e., measured frequency response)  but distortion in this direction  is generally considered less destructive. 
 
A graphic equalizer does exactly the same thing: it changes frequency response and adds distortion. When applied in the digital data stream, before being processed by a DAC, the amount of distortion created by a graphic equalizer has to be many times lower than with tubes that apply their errors to the analog stage. As a bonus, frequency response can be modified as needed. 

If there are pleasing harmonic distortions that you prefer, wouldn't a graphic distortion equalizer (once again applied in the digital data stream) do everything that every tube can do?

A long-time computer geek wants to know...

 

[Ruben123]

You're 110% right, but try to explain it in the other forums...

 

[Pirakaphile]

Tubes are retro, programming is nerdy. There's a difference.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  I must say, I am a bit confused.
 
Many audiophiles love tubes but will never consider a graphical equalizer. Isn't this a fundamental contradiction?  

 

You can add how they use "Hi(gh)-Fi(delity)" against EQ, but not when they use tubes and cables to do essentially the same thing, like using silver cables when using warm speakers/headphones. Also, rolling op-amps or using HDAMs known for "warm" sound.

 

 

[cdsa35000]

No, EQ still using solid state amplification/opamps thus.
Solid state amplification are split into separated PLUS and MINUS wave processing and then joint together for output, nomatter if its Class A is able to minimize the Cross Over Distortion, they are still always present hearable in the transients.
Tube is cross-over distortion free with total smooth linear one-wave amplification, only have more harmonic distortion.
Open your ears! crap-fi loudness war juncies!

http://www.angelfire.com/sd/paulkemble/sound9.html

http://www.theaudioarchive.com/TAA_Resources_Tubes_versus_Solid_State.htm

Vacuum tubes – Advantages

* Highly linear without negative feedback, specially some small-signal types
* Clipping is smooth, which is widely considered more musical than transistors
* Tolerant of overloads and voltage spikes
* Characteristics highly independent of temperature, greatly simplifies biasing
* Wider dynamic range than typical transistor circuits, thanks to higher operating voltages
* Device capacitances vary only slightly with signal voltages
* Capacitive coupling can be done with low-value, high-quality film capacitors
* Circuit designs tend to be simpler than semiconductor equivalents
* Operation is usually in Class A or AB, which minimizes crossover distortion
* Output transformer in power amp protects speaker from tube failure
* Maintenance tends to be easier because user can replace tubes

Vacuum tubes – Disadvantages

* Bulky, hence less suitable for portable products
* High operating voltages required
* High power consumption, needs heater supply
* Generate lots of waste heat
* Lower power efficiency than transistors in small-signal circuits
* Low-cost glass tubes are physically fragile
* More prone to microphonics than semiconductors, especially in low-level stages
* Cathode electron-emitting materials are used up in operation, resulting in shorter lifetimes (typically 1-5 years for power tubes)
* High-impedance devices that usually need a matching transformer for low impedance loads, like speakers
* Usually higher cost than equivalent transistors

Transistors – Advantages

* Usually lower cost than tubes, especially in small-signal circuits
* Smaller than equivalent tubes
* Can be combined in one die to make integrated circuit
* Lower power consumption than equivalent tubes, especially in small-signal circuits
* Less waste heat than equivalent tubes
* Can operate on low-voltage supplies, greater safety, lower component costs, smaller clearances
* Matching transformers not required for low-impedance loads
* Usually more physical ruggedness than tubes (depends on chassis construction)

Transistors – Disadvantages

* Tendency toward higher distortion than equivalent tubes
* Complex circuits and considerable negative feedback required for low distortion
* Sharp clipping, in a manner widely considered non-musical, due to considerable negative feedback commonly used
* Device capacitances tend to vary with applied voltages
* Large unit-to-unit variations in key parameters, such as gain and threshold voltage
* Stored-charge effects add signal delay, which complicates high-frequency and feedback amplifier design
* Device parameters vary considerably with temperature, complicating biasing and raising the possibility of thermal runaway
* Cooling is less efficient than with tubes, because lower operating temperature is required for reliability
* Power MOSFETs have high input capacitances that very with voltage
* Class B totem-pole circuits are common, which can result in crossover distortion
* Less tolerant of overloads and voltage spikes than tubes
* Nearly all transistor power amplifiers have directly-coupled outputs and can damage speakers, even with active protection
* Capacitive coupling usually requires high-value electrolytic capacitors, which give inferior performance at audio-frequency extremes
* Greater tendency to pick up radio frequency interference, due to rectification by low-voltage diode junctions or slew-rate effects
* Maintenance more difficult; devices are not easily replaced by user
* Older transistors and ICs often unavailable after 20 years, making replacement difficult or impossible

 

[dvw]

No, EQ still using solid state amplification/opamps thus.
Solid state amplification are split into separated PLUS and MINUS wave processing and then joint together for output, nomatter if its Class A is able to minimize the Cross Over Distortion, they are still always present hearable in the transients.
Tube is cross-over distortion free with total smooth linear one-wave amplification, only have more harmonic distortion.
Open your ears! crap-fi loudness war juncies!

http://www.angelfire.com/sd/paulkemble/sound9.html


 

Are you  sure tube is cross over distortion free? Class A amplifier has cross over distortion? How?

 

[stv014]

Even with the more common class AB design, no decent solid state amplifier should have audible crossover distortion. Most of the "transistor disadvantages" listed above are problems that may affect DIY designs or poor quality products, but can be (and have been) solved by competent engineering. It is also debatable whether hard clipping in solid state amplifiers is really a disadvantage, as it just means the device has low distortion as long as it is physically capable of outputting the requested voltage, rather than beginning to distort already well below the maximum level. If that level is not enough, then the best solution is to use a more powerful amplifier.

 

[cdsa35000]

Whatever, I like the sound of the hybrid tube/ss headamp, the best of both retro and techno world!

 

[Ruben123]

Wow that's almost over 99% subjectivity

 

[Gr8Desire]

No, EQ still using solid state amplification/opamps thus.
Solid state amplification are split into separated PLUS and MINUS wave processing and then joint together for output, nomatter if its Class A is able to minimize the Cross Over Distortion, they are still always present hearable in the transients.
Tube is cross-over distortion free with total smooth linear one-wave amplification, only have more harmonic distortion.
Open your ears! crap-fi loudness war juncies!

http://www.angelfire.com/sd/paulkemble/sound9.html


 

 
Tube "advantages" are holdovers from the analog source era. If you listen to vinyl, then you have some justification for tubes even if switching to a better source stream will give measurably better results. 

When your source is a digital data stream, you are free to induce any tube distortions before sending data to a DAC.  All you need is a model for the behaviour - at any number of audible harmonics, if you prefer.  

Tubes can certainly clean up bad recordings by adding their own distortion.  A DSP can do the same with significantly more flexibility and range  Fixing signals in analog stage is severely limited. I don't understand why more audiophiles are unwilling to experiment with digital filters across multiple dimensions before sending their digital data stream to an accurate analog amplifier. Every recording engineer does it. Why not you?

 

[cdsa35000]

Whatever, Im into hybrids, if tube is the "analog filter" that smooth out the digital harshness.
Then the DSP tube emulation is useless as it use "digital filter" to add more digital harshness processing into it.

And ofcourse nowadays loudnesswar digitalitis "music" dont need tubes.

 

[Gr8Desire]

Whatever, Im into hybrids, if tube is the "analog filter" that smooth out the digital harshness.
Then the DSP tube emulation is useless as it use "digital filter" to add more digital harshness processing into it.

 
DSP's are used at every stage of digital mastering. A DSP gives me some level of control. Sure, sampling rates higher than 44K make a difference. If you want to interpolate between values when filtering, you need higher sampling rates that you eventually mix down to 44K.  Same as digital imaging where filters avoid adding noise by starting at higher resolution than the final result. 

Cheers.  

 

 

[cdsa35000]

The issue is digital harshness is caused by digital bitrate quantization and dithering to analog sound.
With HQ fast headphone this harshness SQ will be prominant and using DSP EQ/filtering doesn't get rid of bitrate quantization/dithering harshing, hence the use of tube in the endgame as last "analog dithering/filtering".

http://www.ni.com/white-paper/3016/en/

https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb08/articles/digitalaudio.htm

http://www.analog.com/library/analogDialogue/archives/40-02/adc_noise.html

http://www.darkroommastering.com/blog/dithering-explained

 

[cjl]

Stairstep plots like that are not an accurate representation of the output of a remotely competent digital playback system.

 

[castleofargh]

so many wrong claims in your posts cdsa35000 that I won't even bother quoting. like what you like and we're all very fine with it, but please don't pretend to justify your choices with those stuff. I feel like I'm reading a 1975's audio magazine.
 
to me there are 2 main reasons why people don't go for DSP and EQ instead of tubes:
1/ they don't know what they're talking about.
2/ they don't know what they're talking about.
 
 
I wouldn't buy a tube amp, but I know a little bit about them, I grew up with tubes in my house and at the time I didn't die from it, I've listened to a few of the famous headphone tube amps at meets, I'm not just rejecting because of the fear and hatred I developed from an overwhelming ignorance. I just have the feeling that nowadays SS amps are as good and often better, while usually costing less. so it seems obvious for me to go for the better and cheaper product. not the hardest choice to make there.
but just like colored tube lovers, I don't like flat signatures or overly clean sound, so I get the appropriate headphone to change that, fine tune things with an EQ, and add a little crossfeed because headphone imaging is ****. sometime a little compressor/de-esser on voices or cymbals depending on the genre I'm listening to or the headphone/how tired I am. other times(mostly movies) a little something to get a funky 3D boost(not realistic but fun). and even a few times, I'm a mad man, I listen without EQ or DSP!!!!!!!!!!!! "I do what I want!!!".
and so I get transparent gears except the headphone, and tune the signal as I like it.
 
now take people who love to write stuff like "I never use EQ or DSPs", usually followed by "I prefer the real sound", as albums were the live performance, as if an unEQed headphone could be it, or as if somehow a colored amp would be more real than a transparent amp...  anyway take those guys, and let's find out how many know how to set an EQ to get the sound they want? and how many know about the available DSPs(free or not) and how to use them apart from randomly moving stuff until they hopefully end up lucky?
still those same guys who know nothing(like poor Jon Snow), are all more than ready to pretend like they're some righteous hifi saviors in their own houses for using colored devices instead of the demon DSPs.
but of course explaining that 99.9% of all music is done with use of EQ and DSPs, can't possibly prove anything.