[charpi]

I predict in the future DAPs will have touchscreens for complex interface navigation like web browsing and other stuff and have discrete electric pads which you connect to your brain (like those ESP shows or something) which monitors your brain signals so you only have to think to change volume or change tracks etc. , no hands in pockets finding and pushing buttons either

On a more on topic note, I agree that navigation without looking can be a hassle on a touch screen, however, there are also benefits of touch screens, my mobile phone has 8GB of memory, which contains about 1000 songs, it would take me about 2 minutes to scroll from A to Z to get the song I want sometimes.

Ultimately, it depends on individual's priorities I guess.

To answer OP's question, IMO, simply because there is demand for it.

 

[tds101]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif Could have full LCD remote control with lapel clip. Like the H120/H140. yuk yuk.

That w/my S9, or even the Touch (as in FULL CONTROL) made me drool on my keyboard,....................

 

[trains are bad]

The answer to this question is because it's possible and because it's newer technology.

We have come to the point where we have new technology so often, that nobody bothers to question whether the implementation of said technology is a good thing. If a technology is newer, it is considered automatically better. I guess I shouldn't be too negative about it because it's what keeps our economy moving, but sometimes I just shake my head.

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trains are bad /img/forum/go_quote.gif The answer to this question is because it's possible and because it's newer technology. We have come to the point where we have new technology so often, that nobody bothers to question whether the implementation of said technology is a good thing. If a technology is newer, it is considered automatically better. I guess I shouldn't be too negative about it because it's what keeps our economy moving, but sometimes I just shake my head.

Capacitive touch panel technology is older than most head-fi members.

The first patent for them was filed in may of 1977. My brother-in-law has a micromoog from the early 80's with a capacitive touch pad for pitch bending.

Improvements since then have been very incremental. The only major change in the last few years is that they've gotten a little cheaper, but that's mostly because there are so many more of them being made.

This isn't a case of new technology being better technology. This is a case of a design decision at Apple being well received by the sort of people who worship Apple.

 

[penartur]

Quote:

And you really have to admit, its a hell of alot easier finding tracks on an iTouch than it is on an iPod. I hate the click wheel now.

I hate clickwheel too... but not because of touchscreens, but because hardware buttons (NW-HD5, kenwood HDD DAPs, etc) are sooo useable

 

[DrBenway]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssnake51 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Exceptions don't prove a rule: they show a rule is defective.

Your understanding of that old saying is clearly different from mine. There are few, if any, rules that are never violated. An exception is an unusual or abnormal condition, which serves to highlight the normal condition. Thus, the exception proves the rule.

From Wikipedia:

"The exception [that] proves the rule" is a frequently confused English idiom. The original meaning of this idiom is that the presence of an exception establishes that a general rule exists. Fowler's Modern English Usage provided an early critical analysis of the confused use of this phrase, and many more recent style guides repeat Fowler's criticism.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssnake51 /img/forum/go_quote.gif In any case, the Cowon is not alone. The Saumsung P3 is also a touchscreen and it is the editor's choice over at anythingbutipod.com.

I read that blog regularly; I suscribe to its RSS feed. I certainly take the writer's product recommendations with a grain of salt. His reviews, like so many others online, pay nearly zero attention to sound quality. Somewhere toward the end of a lengthy review, he typically throws in a sentence or two, or perhaps a paragraph, with a vague description of the SQ of the device under examination. Having grown up reading Hirsch-Houck Labs reviews in Stereo Review, I need a little more depth than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssnake51 /img/forum/go_quote.gif But I see no reason for linking quality of input with quality of sound.

In theory, I agree with you. There is no reason why the presence of a specific feature should necessarily degrade sound quality. But as DAPs have acquired more and more features -- like touchscreens -- SQ has slipped further and further down the list of design priorities. I realize that's a matter of marketing; the public has a childish fascination with convenience and "cool" features.

Which is fine, or would be, if it didn't affect me. But it does affect me. The product I want is simply unavailable at a reasonable price. I want a player like my recently deceased RH1; basic interface, great sound. I don't want my money going toward fancy displays, or Web browsers, or attachments that froth milk for cappuccino. It's a music player. I want it to play music.

 

[Ssnake51]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrBenway /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your understanding of that old saying is clearly different from mine. There are few, if any, rules that are never violated. An exception is an unusual or abnormal condition, which serves to highlight the normal condition. Thus, the exception proves the rule. From Wikipedia: "The exception [that] proves the rule" is a frequently confused English idiom. The original meaning of this idiom is that the presence of an exception establishes that a general rule exists. Fowler's Modern English Usage provided an early critical analysis of the confused use of this phrase, and many more recent style guides repeat Fowler's criticism.

We aren’t talking about legal or conventional rules here. That is the original usage Fowler was talking about in your quote.
The question of whether or not there is a rule that DAP’s with touchscreens don’t have good SQ is an empirical one. If you wish to establish that rule or expect others to take it seriously you need to show there is a causal relation not a mere correlation. We both agree that the S9 has good SQ and a touchscreen. That negates the rule, it doesn't provide support for it.


Quote:

In theory, I agree with you. There is no reason why the presence of a specific feature should necessarily degrade sound quality.

Then I can't take your objection to touchscreens seriously. We agree in principle that there is no necessary connection between a DAP's SQ and having a touchscreen. And you have not provided the empirical support to undermine that principle.


Quote:

But as DAPs have acquired more and more features -- like touchscreens -- SQ has slipped further and further down the list of design priorities. I realize that's a matter of marketing; the public has a childish fascination with convenience and "cool" features.

Apple may not spend a large percentage of its R&D on SQ but it still spends a lot of money on SQ because the overall sum it is spending is quite large. The SQ on their new Touch is excellent for a DAP and an improvement on the previous Touch.

I don't understand why a fascination with convenience and 'cool' features should be considered childish.

Quote:

Which is fine, or would be, if it didn't affect me. But it does affect me. The product I want is simply unavailable at a reasonable price. I want a player like my recently deceased RH1; basic interface, great sound. I don't want my money going toward fancy displays, or Web browsers, or attachments that froth milk for cappuccino. It's a music player. I want it to play music.

You can pick up a new S9 for a little over $150. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

[DrBenway]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssnake51 /img/forum/go_quote.gif We aren’t talking about legal or conventional rules here. That is the original usage Fowler was talking about in your quote. The question of whether or not there is a rule that DAP’s with touchscreens don’t have good SQ is an empirical one. If you wish to establish that rule or expect others to take it seriously you need to show there is a causal relation not a mere correlation. We both agree that the S9 has good SQ and a touchscreen. That negates the rule, it doesn't provide support for it.

What we are talking about is what the expression means. You may or may not have a point, as you say, empirically, but your misunderstanding of the expression is clear. Rationalization doesn't change that.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssnake51 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then I can't take your objection to touchscreens seriously. We agree in principle that there is no necessary connection between a DAP's SQ and having a touchscreen. And you have not provided the empirical support to undermine that principle.

In my experience, touchscreens are among the features that are added to DAPs at the expense of SQ. The existence of a few touchscreen players that sound good does not change that fact. Empirically speaking, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssnake51 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Apple may not spend a large percentage of its R&D on SQ but it still spends a lot of money on SQ because the overall sum it is spending is quite large. The SQ on their new Touch is excellent for a DAP and an improvement on the previous Touch.

I've listened to a variety of iPod models since the line was introduced. I've never been moved to buy one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssnake51 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't understand why a fascination with convenience and 'cool' features should be considered childish. .

For the same reason that small children are fascinated by shiny objects.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssnake51 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can pick up a new S9 for a little over $150. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

Granted.

 

[Ssnake51]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrBenway /img/forum/go_quote.gif What we are talking about is what the expression means. You may or may not have a point, as you say, empirically, but your misunderstanding of the expression is clear. Rationalization doesn't change that.

The wikipedia article you cited clearly indicates that there are a variety of uses for the idiom. The original use of that idiom was related to the rules of law and convention. We are not talking about those kind of rules here. Seems clear to me.

Quote:

In my experience, touchscreens are among the features that are added to DAPs at the expense of SQ.

You keep repeating that, but have yet failed to provide evidence for linking any supposed lack of SQ to the type of input (in this case a touchscreen) a particular DAP may have.

Quote:

The existence of a few touchscreen players that sound good does not change that fact. Empirically speaking, of course.

Those examples negate the usefulness of your proposed rule that a touchscreen will lead to loss of SQ.


Quote:

I've listened to a variety of iPod models since the line was introduced. I've never been moved to buy one.

Fair enough.

Quote:

For the same reason that small children are fascinated by shiny objects.

And children love to eat. That doesn't make eating childish.


Afraid I don't see us coming to much agreement here. Probably time to move on to other topics.

 

[DrBenway]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssnake51 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The wikipedia article you cited clearly indicates that there are a variety of uses for the idiom. The original use of that idiom was related to the rules of law and convention. We are not talking about those kind of rules here. Seems clear to me. You keep repeating that, but have yet failed to provide evidence for linking any supposed lack of SQ to the type of input (in this case a touchscreen) a particular DAP may have. Those examples negate the usefulness of your proposed rule that a touchscreen will lead to loss of SQ. Fair enough. And children love to eat. That doesn't make eating childish. Afraid I don't see us coming to much agreement here. Probably time to move on to other topics.

Agreed. I mean about the time to move on part...

 

[Sparky191]

SQ and touch screen are not mutually exclusive. Thats a completely bogus idea.

I like buttons more than touch screens. I prefer using my A818 than my 2G touch, for music. That said if the ergonomics of the buttons or the GUI is bad you'll struggle regardless.

 

[active]

At least half of the time when I'm listening music on the move I wear cycling/winter/working gloves, all made from different materials.
No problem to find a portable DAP with a flash memory, which has well placed and large enough tactile controls for basic things like skipping track, adjusting volume, pausing/resuming. I can easily control these functions with the side buttons of my Sony Ericsson Walkman 810i mobile phone attached on the belt. No need to take gloves off or look at the screen, or take the device off the belt, just locate a button and press it.

Now I want to upgrade to a high-capacity (120Gb+) player with better SQ. Battery life has higher priority over the screen size and fancy non-musical functions. Can't think of one to fit these specific needs without a remote control, which would be an extra annoyance.
Ofcourse I could wait for times when even the cheapest flash players have min. 1Tb of memory, but I want it now.

I could post it as a new help-me-to-find-a-player thread, but what I want to say is: there are specific ways of using portable DAPs where you just can't do without tactile control. And even this is a much smaller market, than the mainstream, I would like see more manufacturers thinking about it when designing new products.

 

[RedSky0]

Especially for DAPs I'd like to see tactile buttons included through some kind of wireless clip on/attachment keyboard. I mean there's obvious advantages to the extra screen real estate that you get with the latest range of touch flash players, but there are times when you're using their more complex functions such as writings emails over WiFi that you'd really want actual keys for buttons. This way you can have the best of both.

As far as tactile buttons never going away, maybe. If haptic feedback becomes sufficient or people simply become accustomed to typing on virtual representation of keys/keyboards then there's every chance we'll see the conventional keyboard/pad all but dissapear.

 

[kwang411]

I recently just got my sony X1060, which replaced my A728.
I must say finding an album amongst 100 others is much, much easier and faster.
Same applies to changing the settings (like EQ).
Good thing about X1060 is that it has hard buttons at the top, so changing volume/tracks can also easily be done in the pocket.
Personally i think its got the best of the 2 worlds.

 

[newfier]

Sorry, double posted