[gregorio]

You grouped them together and mixed them up. If you want a coherent debate, be coherent.

I grouped together an unmeasurable, audible distortion with audible distortions that only distort music and some of which are unmeasurable, because neither of them exist and my response is the same as for other things that don’t exist; provide some reliable, relevant evidence or it’s BS!

Design audio mean design audio equipment in my context.

That’s your narrow minded problem, this isn’t your context, this is the sound science subforum. In the English language, design audio and design audio equipment are two different things.

Design audio in any other context is odd. Like a hairdresser saying they design hair. Really? You do not seem to have a grasp of that end.

What do you think a Sound Designer or SFX (Sound Effects) Designer actually design if not audio, Christmas cards maybe? “Really?”

Sorry if you don't have the English comprehension for this.

So “all you said” is not all you said, unmeasurable is not unmeasurable, a Sound Designer does not design audio and “musical transparency” is not musical, got it. Do you have any other gems to help our English comprehension?

I depends on your quality standards I guess.

Yep, in my little world inaudible distortions are inaudible and fairies and pixies don’t exist.

Idiotic question.

Indeed, that’s because it seemed like the only logical response to an idiotic claim, after you refused to provide any reliable, relevant evidence and instead resorted to even more idiocy.

G

 

[castleofargh]

It takes almost miracles for a Finnish artist to become globally successful. The best known Finnish bands tend to be metal bands such as Nightwish. There was Darude's Sandstorm that was an international hit two decades ago. Bomfunk MC's might have been somewhat successful in Europe too around that time. Sara Forsberg tried to conquer the USA, but pretty much all that came from that was that she was asked to create an alien language for Star Wars Episode VII, because she is really talented in mimicking speaking in various languages.

It’s just that known Fins aren’t mainstream. The explanation starts and ends with

Somehow, 15mn metal tracks aren’t the most likely to pass on mainstream radios around the world. But several found their way into my playlists. Some even before I got internet(stuff like Children of Bodom, Kalmah, HIM).
So either you’re underestimating Finland’s musical success, or I have weird taste and spent time with even weirder people who introduced me to Fin’s music.

Admittedly, when I think about you guys from the North( Stark’s people), my first thought when trying to place each country is that from left to right we got, ”what does the fox say?”, ”Dancing queen”, and ”Fishmaster” so there is also some truth to what you said.

 

[jagwap]

It’s just that known Fins aren’t mainstream.

Somehow, 15mn metal tracks aren’t the most likely to pass on mainstream radios around the world. But several found their way into my playlists. Some even before I got internet(stuff like Children of Bodom, Kalmah, HIM).
So either you’re underestimating Finland’s musical success, or I have weird taste and spent time with even weirder people who introduced me to Fin’s music.

This is one of the many things I love about Finland. If you go to a night club (not a rave or similar, more a late night pick-up joint and more importantly - still selling alcohol), instead of "bangin' toons", you get rock and metal. When they do the slow dance, it's likely a Queen song. A refreshing change.

When my mate's father picked us up, it isn't Frank Sinatra on the radio, it's Metalica.

Now I'm not a heavy rock or metal fan particularly, but good music is good music. So when they bought me tickets to see Metalica at the Helsinki olympic stadium, I was delighted. The best country in the world to see them.

 

[71 dB]

This is one of the many things I love about Finland. If you go to a night club (not a rave or similar, more a late night pick-up joint and more importantly - still selling alcohol), instead of "bangin' toons", you get rock and metal. When they do the slow dance, it's likely a Queen song. A refreshing change.

When my mate's father picked us up, it isn't Frank Sinatra on the radio, it's Metalica.

Now I'm not a heavy rock or metal fan particularly, but good music is good music. So when they bought me tickets to see Metalica at the Helsinki olympic stadium, I was delighted. The best country in the world to see them.

The irony is I have never been into metal music and only in a very selective manner into rock. Finnish music scene has been for decades so heavy on that front that I have felt I am force-fed with it. There is something about metal music that just doesn't resonate with me. I don't really listen to Finnish artists. All my favorites are elsewhere. It seems I have a serious "Grass is greener on the other side of the fence" syndrome with music, but there is another explanation: Since my taste is weird and most of the time outside the mainstream stuff, what are the mathematical chances that I find something interesting from a small country of 5.5 million people compared to the whole rest of the World of 8+ billion people?

Who listens to Frank Sinatra these days? Must be a really small minority of people...

How lucky for you to hear Metallica at the Helsinki olympic stadium! Generally Finland is a crappy concert country. Often bands have had concerts in Helsinki just because they travel from Stockholm to St. Petersburg anyway and Helsinki is in the middle of that route. Now even that is halted because of the sad situation in the World. Finland is the "furthest" corner of the Europe and many bands don't bother come here often if at all. For example Tangerine Dream NEVER performed in Finland when Edgar Froese was alive. That's one reason why Tangerine Dream has been almost totally unknown in Finland (it doesn't help that they are not a metal/rock band!) However I have heard that in metal music Finland is THE mecca with awesome gigs, but then again I am not into that kind of music...

 

[jagwap]

I grouped together an unmeasurable, audible distortion with audible distortions that only distort music and some of which are unmeasurable, because neither of them exist and my response is the same as for other things that don’t exist; provide some reliable, relevant evidence or it’s BS!

That’s your narrow minded problem, this isn’t your context, this is the sound science subforum. In the English language, design audio and design audio equipment are two different things.

What do you think a Sound Designer or SFX (Sound Effects) Designer actually design if not audio, Christmas cards maybe? “Really?”

So “all you said” is not all you said, unmeasurable is not unmeasurable, a Sound Designer does not design audio and “musical transparency” is not musical, got it. Do you have any other gems to help our English comprehension?

Yep, in my little world inaudible distortions are inaudible and fairies and pixies don’t exist.

Indeed, that’s because it seemed like the only logical response to an idiotic claim, after you refused to provide any reliable, relevant evidence and instead resorted to even more idiocy.

G

Last

 

[Davesrose]

It’s just that known Fins aren’t mainstream. The explanation starts and ends with
..............

Somehow, 15mn metal tracks aren’t the most likely to pass on mainstream radios around the world. But several found their way into my playlists. Some even before I got internet(stuff like Children of Bodom, Kalmah, HIM).
So either you’re underestimating Finland’s musical success, or I have weird taste and spent time with even weirder people who introduced me to Fin’s music.

Admittedly, when I think about you guys from the North( Stark’s people), my first thought when trying to place each country is that from left to right we got, ”what does the fox say?”, ”Dancing queen”, and ”Fishmaster” so there is also some truth to what you said.

There can be hidden gems in all parts of the world. I grew up in Appalachia (Asheville, NC). City now known for being the largest per capita micro breweries of any US city. But it also has roots to bluegrass and clogging. I have an uncle from Austria, who really enjoyed going to a BBQ joint that had clogging. Now there are bands that fuse bluegrass with Southern rock or alternative.

 

[bigshot]

 

[Leporello]

When I started getting into head fi few years ago, it was on a thought that I will be able to enjoy music from the 80s, I was very naïve with my thought.

most of the 80s bands I adored when I was in my teen years, listening to them now is impossible to enjoy, but I remember in my teen years in the 80s I just had a cassette player and some unknown headphones or speakers, and I used to literally enjoy the sound recording of those bands.

Now its literally impossible for me to even think to listen to them. I wonder why?

examples
1- the cure
2- depeche mode
3- def leppard
4- new order
5- ultravox

and the list goes on

nowadays I ventured into different music, as listening to those bands and their albums released in the 80s is not giving me any joy, the recording quality is so anemic and kills the buzz to enjoy them.

In the eighties I was in my twenties. Never liked New Order back then. A couple of years ago it was my most listened band according to Spotify. Nothing to do with sound quality.

 

[Leporello]

Music is analog. Digital "music" is not music, it's an approximation of music. So, we disagree, fundamentally. And that's ok since I avoid audio scientology

Anything in sound recording and reproduction chain is an approximate representation of the previous step. This is true even in fully analog systems. The question then becomes: which method is able to provide a closer approximation? Hint: the correct answer is not "analog".

 

[Leporello]

NO! The exact opposite. Listen to the music, not the soundstage for a change, when evaluating the gear.

This sounds like classic UK flat earth audio philosophy. Are you perhaps a Linn owner?

 

[Death_Block]

What's a 'Linn'?

 

[71 dB]

What's a 'Linn'?

Linn Sondek LP12, a legendary turntable from early 70's.

 

[71 dB]

Music is analog. Digital "music" is not music, it's an approximation of music. So, we disagree, fundamentally. And that's ok since I avoid audio scientology

Last time I gave a bad reply to your post and it lead to back and forths of what "analog" means. Let's try again:

Digital signal is NOT the kind of approximation you think it is. It has two limitations: Bandwidth dictated by sample rate and dynamic range dictated by bit depth. Human hearing sets convenient limits on these: 20 kHz* of bandwidth and 80 dB of SNR are enough in consumer audio. This means that CD quality is enough in consumer audio. Now, within these limitations (which even at CD quality are outside the limits of our hearing and do not matter) digital audio gives, at least theoretically 100 % accurate representation of the analog signal. The limitations in frequency and signal-to-noise ratio means there is limited amount of information in the signal and all those bits in a digital signal are THAT information. This is why we can restore, at least theoretically, the original analog signal with 100 % accuracy from the digital signal within the signal-to-noise ratio.

How is this possible you ask? How do we know what the signal does in between the sample points?

Proper bandlimiting (say 20 kHz) means the signal can't take sudden sharp turns between samples, because that would mean there are higher frequencies involved. We wouldn't even hear those sharp turns, because of the limits of our hearing. So, the bandlimited version of the analog signal without "sharp turns" is enough. What sampling theorem means is when we take samples densely enough (at least twice the frequency of the highest frequency in the signal), there is only one "route" the signal can take between sample points. Any other "route" would require frequencies above the bandlimiting (Nyquist frequency). The only inaccuracy involved is that the sample points are quantized rather than being the EXACT values. this means that the signal we get is actually the original analog signal + noise. In consumer audio the noise is too quiet to have any effect on the sound in even the most demanding listening scenarious if it is 80 dB below the peaks of the music. CD quality fulfils this requirement even technically, but perceptually, which is actually what counts, CD quality can reach perceptual dynamic range of 110-120 dB if shaped dither noise is used. CD quality digital consumer audio needs to be 13 bit, but is technically 16 bit and perceptually even 20 bit. Digital audio doesn't even need to go to high resolution formats such as 96 kHz/24 bit to "reach" analog audio. It is already good enough at CD quality (meaning hi-rez formats in consumer audio is a scam based on milking audiophools on technical ignorance and placebo-effect).

Why do some people prefer analog formats such as vinyl, if digital audio at CD quality is so perfect?

Because some people like the distortions these analog formats create. These distortions are always present with all recordings making all recordings sound the same in that sense. This can give the feeling of cosiness, especially if our ears are used to it. Harmonic distortion can make the sound "richer" and "warmer" adding harmonic content that wasn't in the original recording and aren't present in the digital version. Reduction of channel separation at bass frequencies of vinyls to avoid the needle jump out of the groove is cross-feeding of a sort and can make headphone listening more comfortable. Distortions also affect the spatiality and analog formats can have more "lively" spatiality. All of this can be replicated in digital versions, but isn't normally done because the whole idea of digital audio is accuracy, the avoidance of distortions in the audio chain! Whether people prefer analog or digital sound is a subjective preference, but those who prefer analog sound blame digital audio for the WRONG reasons. Digital audio can EASILY have the same "ear-pleasing" distortions analog audio has: Just rip a vinyl into a digital file (using good quality gear) and you have the exact same sound, only now you can listen to the music over and over without the sound quality dropping each time due to wear and tear.

Analog formats also have nostalgy value. Many people started listening to music on analog formats such as vinyl and C-cassette. That can add to the enjoyment of the music, even if it has nothing to do with the sound. Vinyls have LARGE cover art many people like, again not sound related. The "ritual" of dropping the needle on the record may add to the enjoyment for some people. There are many factors, but somehow fans of analog sound think it is all about the "approximate" nature of digital sound which is competely wrong assumption. The real reasons are elsewhere and not the least between our ears (psychological).

Now ask yourself how do YOU avoid audio scientology? Did my lengthy post give you any new thoughts about this issue?

__________________________
* For children. For average adults maybe 16 kHz. We who wonder why 80's music sounds different from how it was back in the day are too old to hear anything around 20 kHz.

 

[bigshot]

A musical instrument that outputs USB or MIDI is digital. Anything performed on them is music. Music comes out of CD players too.

 

[Death_Block]

What's a 'Linn'?