Why do USB cables make such a difference?
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Oct 16, 2017 at 2:42 AM Post #361 of 1,606
Well that's your opinion of which your entitled ...

What's my opinion, that you quoted an entire analogue studio as representative of the analogue section of your DAC, that an analogue studio drawing so much power that it trips a 20 amp circuit is not representative of your DAC or that in response to me explaining this, you stated you had no interest in studio equipment and therefore wouldn't respond any further?

... if different cables are able to isolate the effects of high currents passing through the power cable from the signal ones, then not all cables sound the same in all circumstances if these currents can have a deletereous effect on the signal (timing at the receiver, increased noise, etc).

Firstly, that's *IF* a particular audiophile cable does actually provide better isolation and secondly, what "high currents passing through the power cable"? Sure, the studio setup you quoted was drawing a high current but your DAC is not, it's probably drawing no more than a few hundred milli-amps!

No one is saying electrical, source, jitter or other causes of noise does not or should not exist in the analogue section of a DAC. No one is saying a DAC should be able to eliminate all noise, that it should have zero noise and an infinite dynamic range. I'm saying that a DAC can relatively easily and cheaply isolate itself from USB power and other forms of transmitted noise well enough to reduce that noise to levels well below audibility. This is not an opinion, it's a fact and it's a fact not only because science and electrical engineering indicates it should be the case, it's a fact because there are cheap DACs on the market which actually demonstrate it! If cheap DACs can achieve this feat, why can't more expensive or very much more expensive audiophile DACs? Which brings us back to the two options of why we might hear a difference between ordinary and audiophile USB cables:
1. There is no actual difference, the difference heard is not in the actual sound output by the DAC but in the perception/imagination of the listener OR
2. That the DAC is incompetently designed, flawed or broken.

There is a third potential option, the case of an extreme environment but exceedingly few consumers, if any at all, will routinely encounter such circumstances. In the vast majority of cases I assume the first option to be the explanation but that IS an opinion because I have not measured or seen reliable measurements for the vast majority of audiophile DACs.

G
 
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Oct 16, 2017 at 5:18 AM Post #362 of 1,606
Coming back to where this discussion started, originally I wanted to make a point the few colleagues who stated rather categorically that "USB cables must all sound the same since they only carry bits", and the fact that they don't only do that (electrical noise aside, they also carry power for USB powered DACs), and if different cables are able to isolate the effects of high currents passing through the power cable from the signal ones, then not all cables sound the same in all circumstances if these currents can have a deletereous effect on the signal (timing at the receiver, increased noise, etc).
USB 1.0 and 2.0 cables are made of 4 unshielded wires. The 4 wires are: GND, +5, and two data wires operated as a differential pair. USB 3.0 adds two additional differential pairs (internally individually shielded or using twin-ax cable). The point of the differential data pairs is noise immunity. The device that receives the data looks for a difference between each wire of the pair and ignores any signal that is common. A noise signal from an external source that is coupled to the wires, either inductively, capacitively, or electromagnetically arrives on all wires equally, making that noise signal common mode, and easily rejected by the use of differential data signals. Noise that may be on the Gnd or +5 wires that may couple to the data pairs is also coupled equally to all wires, also making that signal common mode, and easily rejected. When an overall shield is added to some cables (not part of the USB 1 or 2 spec), and grounded, it provides electrostatic and electromagnetic shielding against external signals, reducing coupling, except for the inductive component for which the shield is useless. However, should an external noise signal be inductively coupled, or manage to penetrate the shield since no shield is perfect, the coupling would still be common mode to the data pairs. USB 3/Superspeed cables have by specification their data pairs internally shielded to maximize noise immunity and minimize data crosstalk.

When a differential pair is used and applied to a differential receiver, the common mode rejection ratio should be at least 50dB, but 70dB is not atypical. Assuming worst case of 50dB, that means that if you could (and you can't!) induce a noise voltage into a USB cable equal in amplitude to the 5V peak data signal, common mode rejection would see it as a .016V noise signal. However, considering the actual strength of an external noise source and coupling losses, induced noise voltages are far, far below that. The integrity of the data is ensured by the differential pair technique.

The single biggest problem with USB of all flavors is that a ground is carried end to end, which presents the strong possibility of a ground loop if the devices being connected have a difference in ground potential. That difference in ground potential is a problem, a design flaw, that can be remedied in other ways. But because when USB cables include an overall shield, and that shield is grounded at both ends, the resistance of the device to device ground connection is reduced, and both devices are brought closer to the same ground potential. This may in some circumstances reduce ground loop noise. But it doesn't affect the data because it's already immune, being differential. Again, ground loop noise is the result of a device design flaw, or a flaw in installation, it's not supposed to be there in the first place, and could be remedied without the use of a special USB cable.

The USB interface was designed to transmit data between devices without corrupting the data. That's why differential data pairs are used. The chance that actual data corruption is occurring because of coupled noise is extremely unlikely.

When audiophiles "listen to USB cables", and hear things they describe as more "open", or "better detail", these are not qualities that can be achieved by altering the data path. Problems in the data path only result in corruption of data, which only can result in increased noise. Any of the changes described by illustrative or analogous terminology could only occur if data were altered via some form of DSP that could affect a change without corruption.

One last thing, the capability to provide bus power over USB has a number of well defined specifications and different levels of power/current. However, the thing to note here is that devices must tolerate a 5% voltage fluctuation, and in the case of USB 3, operate down to 4V. That implies power conditioning and regulation at the device, making that device immune to noise on the power wire. This doesn''t eliminate the ground loop problem, but does reduce the possibility that noise induced into the 5V line would inject itself into the device that way.
 
Oct 16, 2017 at 10:28 AM Post #363 of 1,606
.......... When an overall shield is added to some cables (not part of the USB 1 or 2 spec).....

Just a detail but USB 2.0 specifies outer shield and a drain wire for H.S/F.S cables. When dealing with L.S it is only recommended. (cf abstract hereunder)
Micro USB cables are sharing the same mechanical specs with the exception of Quad Type Micro-USB ( power&data pairs twisted) where no drain wire is allowed.
Let's note that Micro-USB cables are limited to 2 meters length (10ns latency).


Abstract USB 2.0 Specification

High-/full-speed cable consists of one 28 to 20 AWG non-twisted power pair and one 28 AWG twisted data

pair with an aluminum metallized polyester inner shield, 28 AWG stranded tinned copper drain wire,
> 65% tinned copper wire interwoven (braided) outer shield, and PVC outer jacket.

Low-speed cable consists of one 28 to 20 AWG non-twisted power pair and one 28 AWG data pair (a twist
is recommended) with an aluminum metallized polyester inner shield, 28 AWG stranded tinned copper
drain wire and PVC outer jacket. A > 65% tinned copper wire interwoven (braided) outer shield is
recommended.

Edited: electrical specs replaced by mechanical specs + added picture

usb.jpg
 
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Oct 16, 2017 at 12:01 PM Post #364 of 1,606
Just a detail but USB 2.0 specifies outer shield and a drain wire for H.S/F.S cables. When dealing with L.S it is only recommended. (cf abstract hereunder)
Micro USB cables are sharing the same mechanical specs with the exception of Quad Type Micro-USB ( power&data pairs twisted) where no drain wire is allowed.
Let's note that Micro-USB cables are limited to 2 meters length (10ns latency).


Abstract USB 2.0 Specification

High-/full-speed cable consists of one 28 to 20 AWG non-twisted power pair and one 28 AWG twisted data

pair with an aluminum metallized polyester inner shield, 28 AWG stranded tinned copper drain wire,
> 65% tinned copper wire interwoven (braided) outer shield, and PVC outer jacket.

Low-speed cable consists of one 28 to 20 AWG non-twisted power pair and one 28 AWG data pair (a twist
is recommended) with an aluminum metallized polyester inner shield, 28 AWG stranded tinned copper
drain wire and PVC outer jacket. A > 65% tinned copper wire interwoven (braided) outer shield is
recommended.

Edited: electrical specs replaced by mechanical specs + added picture

Good catch, so USB differential data pair is always shielded, and the outer shield is at least recommended, and specified for high speed cables.

Now somebody detail how any of this can be "improved" upon by exotic cables to the extend that there's less data corruption caused by noise signal coupling.
 
Oct 16, 2017 at 1:55 PM Post #366 of 1,606
they even specify the materials to use, that leaves litle room for improvement, except if you want to put gold anywhere you can :)
You don't have to look very long to find exotic cable manufacturers extolling the "benefits" of their use of special materials and metals. Of course there are no specifications or test results...because there can't be.
 
Oct 16, 2017 at 2:47 PM Post #367 of 1,606
Exotic materials won't do anything for USB, sorry to disappoint you. A nominal impedance of 90 Ohms is needed between the transmitter and the receiver, so departing from the nominal can only degrade things. I'll quote John Svenson's tech corner which sheds some light in what should influence the signal transmission (note: SI - signal integrity, PHY - physical layer):

"
Remember that SI consists of rise/fall time, noise, and jitter. The jitter in the SIGNAL is determined by the transmitter PHY, which can be significantly influenced by the clock IT gets and the noise on its PG planes. USUALLY noise is low on the signal as it exits the PHY. The cable (and connectors) cause an increase in raise/fall times, added noise (EMI and crosstalk from power and ground wires) and decreased amplitude of the signal. Any decent receiver will have an automatic gain control (AGC) which compensates for this effect, but that raises the noise on the signal, so I'm lumping the amplitude decrease into noise. The cable by itself rarely adds jitter to the signal, BUT the increased rise/fall times and extra noise cause the received data to have increased jitter in the PHY. This is one of the big issues that all that extra processing is designed to deal with.
"
full link here

His words are in agreement with USB spec. The specification is rather loose in terms of transmit rise/fall times (max. 25% of mismatch), however it clearly states the following:

To get better system performance try to match termination impedance as close as possible

So aside from the connectors, what else affects the signal quality? Cable resistance reduces signal strength and so S/N ratio, so keep cables as short as possible. What affects rise/fall times? One thing would be if noise rejection is not really negligible (I'm speculating here). Just to be on the safe side, one can simple disconnect the +5V line if not needed. Matching the 90 Ohms impedance as per the spec. What else?

Those details seem far from exotic to me, however I wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of cables sold out there are outside the nominal parameters. At least with Ethernet, the percentage of cables outside specs is surprisingly high - and very few manufacturers actually test them before shipping.
 
Oct 16, 2017 at 3:36 PM Post #368 of 1,606
You shouldn't have to test a cable before shipping it. If it's properly designed and manufactured, it's going to work properly... and it isn't rocket science to design and manufacture a USB cable. I can see how errors might occur in theory, but I don't see errors as being at all likely in practice. If the Chinese can't make a USB cable that functions properly, how are they possibly going to be able to make a 50 inch flatscreen TVs that works properly?
 
Oct 16, 2017 at 4:25 PM Post #369 of 1,606
The philosopher said it best.

Sound reproduction is an illusion.

Have fun with you percentages of sound differences, but please leave bull like "digital cable sound" out of this subforum.

The people who invented it (edit: USB) are laughing at you.

How can a person be so delusioned? You come to a science forum and seriously claim to be able to "help"?

Wow.


I am amazed at the stupidity of people daily, why do I even bother responding?

Its worth it.
 
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Oct 16, 2017 at 4:45 PM Post #370 of 1,606
The philosopher said it best.

Sound reproduction is an illusion.

Have fun with you percentages of sound differences, but please leave bull**** like "digital cable sound" out of this subforum.

The people who invented it are laughing at you.

How can a person be so delusioned? You come to a science forum and seriously claim to be able to "help"?

Wow.


I am amazed at the stupidity of people daily, why do I even bother responding?

Its worth it.

You say digital signal cables, as if there is a difference between analog electrons and digital electrons. "Digital" is the way that the signal transmitted through the cable is interpreted.
 
Oct 16, 2017 at 5:16 PM Post #371 of 1,606
The philosopher said it best.

Sound reproduction is an illusion.

Have fun with you percentages of sound differences, but please leave bull**** like "digital cable sound" out of this subforum.

The people who invented it are laughing at you.

How can a person be so delusioned? You come to a science forum and seriously claim to be able to "help"?

Wow.


I am amazed at the stupidity of people daily, why do I even bother responding?

Its worth it.
well this topic was only recently moved in this section, so please be a tiny bit more accepting of people who got dragged here unwillingly. if the same thing happened in reverse I would feel so trapped.
 
Oct 16, 2017 at 5:18 PM Post #372 of 1,606
The name of this thread is: Why do USB cables make such a difference?

I was under the understanding that this was the 'DBT free part of the forum', at least according to the Moderator:

this is the DBT free part of the forum. .

Yet now this appears to be moved to the science DBT subforum section. We all have are entitled to our believes, but mine certainly are not belonging here where positivism reigns as the only possible one correct and absolute truth.

please leave bull**** like "digital cable sound" out of this subforum.

The people who invented it are laughing at you.

How can a person be so delusioned? You come to a science forum and seriously claim to be able to "help"?

Wow.

I am amazed at the stupidity of people daily

If someone has hijacked this thread and moved it, can it be pleased put it back where it belongs, so we don't have to put up with dogmatically offensive and derogatory comments of this kind.
 
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Oct 16, 2017 at 7:02 PM Post #373 of 1,606
WELCOME TO SOUND SCIENCE! Sorry about your preconceived biases!

I think they periodically move really dumb threads into sound science just to entertain us. We're actually a lot of fun if you get to know us.
 
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Oct 16, 2017 at 7:07 PM Post #374 of 1,606
WELCOME TO SOUND SCIENCE! Sorry about your preconceived biases!

I think they periodically move really dumb threads into sound science just to entertain us. We're actually a lot of fun if you get to know us.

No thanks, I think I would rather go to dinner at the White House, at least the conversation there would be more intellectually stimulating.
 
Oct 16, 2017 at 7:09 PM Post #375 of 1,606
Well then, I'll present you your check and you can pay at the door. Thanks for playing! We have some lovely parting gifts for you...

Oh! One last thing... I really like the photo of the vole you use as your avatar!
 
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