[aimlink]

Quote:

 
I'm surprised how enduring some of you guys are, especially Uncle Erik. Hats off!
 

I'm genuinely surprised how enduring some like you are, lurking around and coughing up these comments. 

  Perhaps to provoke some attention?  Isn't that trolling?
 
Anyway, you did provoke attention so:
 
IMO, it's all plain and simple from a simple and straight forward vantage point.  One without an agenda to colour it into complexity.
 
Anti-cable enthusiasts have direct scientific experimental data to support their claims.  AFAIK, cable enthusiasts do not.  This is no secret, and this forms the only basis behind this never ending debate.  What cable enthusiasts do have are their personal experiences, backed by enough scientific data to create doubt on the issue.  It's whether or not this doubt is reasonable that's the question.  For cable enthusiasts, it is.  The absence of hard evidence to support a position or even the presence of evidence that goes against a position, doesn't take away from maintaining a position if valid reasons for doing so exist.  It's just for each side to respect each other's positions, but the typical anti-cable enthusiast's behaviour and attitude will not make this possible. 
 
If anti-cable enthusiasts are prepared to vociferously defend their position on available scientific experimental data, to the point where they feel it reasonable to be condescending, patronizing, or even insulting about it, then it will follow that any criticism of that evidence will be met with equal or even more dramatic opposition.  After-all, anyone who invests their reputation, ego and decisions into any data that supports their opinion will equally defend it.
 
The debate therefore rages on, not withstanding pointless two line posts as yours. 
 
 
 

 

[ROBSCIX]

I am guessing you people are talking about interconnects and Speaker cables?
-or are you including USB and S/Pdif (coax/optical) in this every cable sounds the same?
I am not in this debate, I was just curious.

 

[Shahrose]

Quote:

Shahrose, some blind tests, such as Hifi Wigwam's power cord was conducted with each listener getting a week with the cables. If something is not audible, it is not audible and the length of time spent listening will not change that. These subtleties you claim, what cable produced what change for you? Is there any consistency with those changes? Do your experiences match others who have listened to exactly the same kit? I think that your allegations are spurious to say the least.
 
It is reasonable to assume that there will be differences in hearing ability between all those who have done blind tests. Yet all the blind tests still show that claims to the effectiveness of cables cannot be reproduced. Your claim that is down to a lack of training and/or poor hearing is a gross assumption with no supporting evidence.
 
You then happily admit that cables do not necessarily make a difference. Then claim copper and silver sound different. Can you now please show how your experience can be replicated in others? If silver sounds different to copper, at least a majority of people will hear that difference without knowing which cable is which. Otherwise it is all in your head and not in the cable.
 
Shahrose, sorry, but you latch onto anything other than actual proof.
 

I haven't heard differences among power cables either, which I already alluded to in my previous post. You ask if there is a consistency among listeners without prior interaction in their subjective tests. Yes, there is, and it's given me more confidence in the existence of such differences. Check out the HD800 cable thread in the cable forums for example. There are far too many experiences my friends/peers and I have had in person to discuss here (the occurrence of which I can't prove to you, so you probably wouldn't believe me anyways).
 
BTW, I'll repeat, some cables make more difference than others...just keep that in mind.
 
I agree with the bolded part. The problem is it's based on my experience. If the supporting evidence you ask for existed, this entire discussion wouldn't be taking place.
 
Lastly, you've once again fallen back to DBT and A/B tests. I still believe, despite their uses, that they are not the best way to go about testing such subtle differences as ones produced by a cable change, even that of copper vs silver.
 
It's pointless to say more than I already have because even I feel I don't have sufficient proof to convince others. I only have my experience, which is only enough to convince me. I just ask that people try for themselves, with transparent gear, and over a period of sufficient length, while trying to minimize physiological effects by testing at the same time of the day etc. Physiological state has an effect on the senses and this variable can't fully be eliminated, but it can be reduced to an extent.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

It's pointless to say more than I already have because even I feel I don't have sufficient proof to convince others. I only have my experience, which is only enough to convince me. I just ask that people try for themselves, with transparent gear, and over a period of sufficient length, while trying to minimize physiological effects by testing at the same time of the day etc. Physiological state has an effect on the senses and this variable can't fully be eliminated, but it can be reduced to an extent.

What amazes me is that we're willing to spend so much on differences that we'll detect only at a particular time of day and depending on whether or not we have a cup of green or some other tea in hand to improve our focus.  

 

[sokolov91]

Quote:

Get a source better than the STX, then we'll talk. You missed the part where I said "sufficiently transparent gear". I owned both the ST and STX with various opamps and I too was hard pressed to find any cable differences.

It has nothing to do with my source, or yours, but I do happen to be in the market for a new source. But I am very happy with my LCD-2, and will appreciate them, and if I feel the need I will get a new player. I am pretty happy at this point.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

We would have far more evidence if the pro side participated in blind tests. For all the accusations of ego and lack of respect (which apply to both sides) the pro side are very reluctant to do blind tests.
 
I was pro-cable, read up on and did blind tests and realised I was wrong and became anti-cable. I will happily be proved wrong again, if other pro-cablers do the same and we find that blind testing is faulty and there is something else that causes cables to sound different.
 
Otherwise the debate rages on because one side cannot accept they are attributing differences to the wrong thing. This is like getting two drivers to drive the same car around the same test track and one driver consistently gets a different time from another. Then one driver claims the car is somehow different, but no matter what tests are done, the car is shown to be no different. The difference is actually in the driver and not the car. Pro-cablers are the ones who claim the car is different. Anti-cablers claim the driver is different.
 
The reason why this is wrong is because the incorrect claim (of a different car) is then repeatedly put forward as a fact and that is used to take, sometimes large amounts of money off people.

 

[Shahrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
What amazes me is that we're willing to spend so much on differences that we'll detect only at a particular time of day and depending on whether or not we have a cup of green or some other tea in hand to improve our focus.  

There's certainly some truth to this.

 
Quote:

It has nothing to do with my source, or yours, but I do happen to be in the market for a new source. But I am very happy with my LCD-2, and will appreciate them, and if I feel the need I will get a new player. I am pretty happy at this point.

 
You can believe that if you want my friend, but it's just not true.

 

[sokolov91]

Quote:

There's certainly some truth to this.

 
 
You can believe that if you want my friend, but it's just not true.

your source is better, I have no trouble believing that. But regardless of the sources, its interaction with cables remains the same. You believe, I know. Pretty big difference if you ask me.

 

[The Monkey]

I wonder if it would be possible to do a panel discussion on this issue at CanJam.  Of course it would have to be moderated by someone who could control the panelists and the panelists would have to be rational players on both sides of the debate.  And the members in the audience would have to be heavily sedated or otherwise calmed, but that is usually not an issue at CanJam.
 
Also, we have almost a year.  Isn't that enough time to get some sort of DBT (or other) test protocol set?  Nothing's perfect, but it would be a start.

 

[The Monkey]

Fortunately there's always plenty of booze in which everyone can drown their sorrows.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

We would have far more evidence if the pro side participated in blind tests. For all the accusations of ego and lack of respect (which apply to both sides) the pro side are very reluctant to do blind tests.
 

How are pro-cablers going to be willing to do DBT's to prove a point for which they feel DBT's will fail or are inappropriate.  Procablers state over and over and over and over and over and................ jeepers .... over again, their problems with DBT's and the validity of the evidence they offer to lay this issue to rest.  Why invite them anyway.... over and over and over again? 
 
Shouldn't the first step be to convince them of the validity of such a methodology?  Only then will you get them willing to try?  So far there has been no success with this.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Who will be providing all the tissues for the cable zealots when they get ravaged, without lube, by the DBT?

Are you joking or don't you get it?
 
Aren't you aware of what pro-cablers feel about the DBT's you refer to?  How are they going to be ravaged by something that's meaningless for them?  Hmmm?
 

 

[BIG POPPA]

Quote:

How are pro-cablers going to be willing to do DBT's to prove a point for which they feel DBT's will fail or are inappropriate.  Procablers state over and over and over and over and over and................ jeepers .... over again, their problems with DBT's and the validity of the evidence they offer to lay this issue to rest.  Why invite them anyway.... over and over and over again? 
 
Shouldn't the first step be to convince them of the validity of such a methodology?  Only then will you get them willing to try?  So far there has been no success with this.

How do you go about making DBT practical. How can you make it useful for all? How can you do it fast and effectively in any environment? How can you make it cost effective to implement?
 

 

[Happy Camper]

This BS is why most pros ignore these demeaning threads. They have found a truth that satisfies them. They don't care what everybody thinks of their view. They just enjoy the fruits of their efforts.
 
If audio memory is only 4 seconds, a dbt can't work either, unless there is instant switching. This wouldn't need a long time to determine. You should be able to hear it immediately.
 
Then again some of us just can't stay away from the light.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

This BS is why most pros ignore these demeaning threads. They have found a truth that satisfies them. They don't care what everybody thinks of their view. They just enjoy the fruits of their efforts.
 
If audio memory is only 4 seconds, a dbt can't work either, unless there is instant switching. This wouldn't need a long time to determine. You should be able to hear it immediately.
 
Then again some of us just can't stay away from the light.

Why do you find this thread demeaning?  And when you say "pros" do you mean someone who is pro-cables or are you referring to some other type of "pro"?