Why do the 'pro-cable' side refuse to accept the science and do blind tests?
Aug 16, 2010 at 12:16 AM Post #121 of 579
ProjectDenz, what purpose is served in cutting off debate? There's a huge difference between argument and the personal. There are people I care about whom I don't agree with on much. Friends, family and even a few people in this thread.
 
Aug 16, 2010 at 12:47 AM Post #123 of 579
 
Ghost pains, after an amputation, are a good way to view cables. 


Exactly! You put your best sounding cable, you listen a bit...you put a crappy one and then you're bored to death. You put your good cable again, and the grin's back on your face. It's called real world experience, you should try it sometime.
 
Quite honestly, the ppl who say that PSU/opamps/cables all sound the same either 1)have poor hearing(tone deaf maybe?) 2)are untrained to hear subtle differences 3)suffer from another bottleneck, such as crappy phones or source 4)have a bad case of nocebo
 
Aug 16, 2010 at 2:58 AM Post #124 of 579


Quote:
haha... ignorance is bliss
 
If they simply refuse to do DBT, then they feel (why i know not) that their arguments, and perceptions are actually valid. If they were to be destroyed by DBT (which they would) then they would feel bitter, and still not want to believe there is nothing there, so for them it is a lose, lose situation. 
 
No one like to feel they are crazy, or they are flawed.

You are probably the most blissed person on earth. 
 
 
Aug 16, 2010 at 3:00 AM Post #125 of 579


Quote:
Kind of the same thing...
 
The working model is developed through rigorous testing of falsifiable hypotheses.
 
The model develops as past/current hypotheses are rejected and new hypotheses are stated.
 
And the process continues...
 
 
 

 


Yes. That's why I agreed with you in the first place.
 
Aug 16, 2010 at 2:12 PM Post #127 of 579
Without being sarcastic here, such discussions are always quite informative from the science-savvy "side", but also quite entertaining from the other. :wink:
I'm surprised how enduring some of you guys are, especially Uncle Erik. Hats off!
 
---
 
To the pro guys: The lack of counter arguments (to the OP) however... weak, guys, weak. :p
 
Aug 16, 2010 at 2:50 PM Post #128 of 579


Quote:
 

Exactly! You put your best sounding cable, you listen a bit...you put a crappy one and then you're bored to death. You put your good cable again, and the grin's back on your face. It's called real world experience, you should try it sometime.
 
Quite honestly, the ppl who say that PSU/opamps/cables all sound the same either 1)have poor hearing(tone deaf maybe?) 2)are untrained to hear subtle differences 3)suffer from another bottleneck, such as crappy phones or source 4)have a bad case of nocebo


1) No - still hear to 20kHz at 38
2) No - I have very good relative pitch and was trained to play classical music
3) No - other than cables, what do you think is a bottleneck?  More gear in profile
4) You might have a point.
 
Perhaps someone could motivate me with a financial reward for passing a listening test.  Money is a great motivator for me, which is why I'd actually like to crack the secret of cables.  I'd make a fortune and never work again.  Too bad that even the slightest amount of evidence hasn't been produced in over 30 years of debate.
 
Aug 16, 2010 at 3:02 PM Post #129 of 579

 
Quote:
......
 
To the pro guys: The lack of counter arguments (to the OP) however... weak, guys, weak. :p


Back from my long weekend, and xnor you are right.
bigsmile_face.gif

 
I am sorry but I can only conclude that pro-cablers refuse blind testing because they cannot face being shown to be wrong.
 
Aug 16, 2010 at 3:08 PM Post #130 of 579
To the OP: because blind tests/DBT don't give enough time. I've said this many times before and it took me years of listening to realize this, but A/B testing has its limitations/deficiencies. It's good for discerning large or simple differences, but to really get a grasp of the subtleties involved, one has to listen over a period of weeks to months (preferably in the same physiological state, same time of day, so hormonal, sleep, hunger cycles etc. are kept relatively constant).
 
Assuming you're using sufficiently transparent gear, if you still can't hear the differences among cables, then accept the possibility that your hearing isn't as good as others or you're not trained as well to look for the differences being discussed. You can stop spending money on cables, but don't try to convince others that they can't hear something just because you can't.
 
I've also found that not all cables make a difference, and the ones that do produce varying degrees. IME, headphone cables produced the largest difference, then ICs, then digital cables, then finally, power cables. Ofcourse, this depends on the gear used.
One other thing important thing to consider is that changing wire material reveals the greatest differences for analog cables IME. For example, switching from copper to higher quality copper isn't as audible as switching from copper to silver.
 
BTW, let me make it clear that the cable-induced changes we're talking about are *subtle* and shouldn't be focused on too much before getting the proper source, amp and headphones first. I've found some good cables to even make some gear sound worse if the upstream components were of low quality. A good wire benefits most from a good signal.
 
Aug 16, 2010 at 3:23 PM Post #132 of 579

 
Quote:
To the OP: because blind tests/DBT don't give enough time. I've said this many times before and it took me years of listening to realize this, but A/B testing has its limitations/deficiencies. It's good for discerning large or simple differences, but to really get a grasp of the subtleties involved, one has to listen over a period of weeks to months (preferably in the same physiological state, same time of day, so hormonal, sleep, hunger cycles etc. are kept relatively constant).
 
Humans have a bout a 4 second memory when it comes to audio. That is why DBT is not only great at debuffing the myth cables make a difference, it is also the best. (other than using scientific gear, which says the same thing. Said gear not only hears better than you, or even me, it hear better than all humans by a long shot.)
 
Assuming you're using sufficiently transparent gear, if you still can't hear the differences among cables, then accept the possibility that your hearing isn't as good as others or you're not as trained as well to look for the differences being discussed. You can stop spending money on cables, but don't try to convince others that they can't hear something just because you can't.
 
Really, so by which shaman were you trained to hear these differences? I would put bucket loads of money on my passing a hearing test with better results than you. You can stop trying to justify any point other than you enjoy wasting money on cables.
 
I've also found that not all cables make a difference, and the ones that do produce varying degrees. IME, headphone cables produced the largest difference, then ICs, then digital cables, then finally, power cables. Ofcourse, this depends on the gear used.
One other thing important thing to consider is that changing wire material reveals the greatest differences for analog cables IME. For example, switching from copper to higher quality copper isn't as audible as switching from copper to silver.
 
BTW, let me make it clear that the cable-induced changes we're talking about are *subtle* and shouldn't be focused on too much before getting the proper source, amp and headphones first. I've found some good cables to even make some gear sound worse if the upstream components were of low quality. A good wire benefits most from a good signal. (no pun intended?)
 
Let it be clear the change are indeed subtle, so subtle they do not actually exist, and are a by product of a human consciousness, just like colours.


Not to mention the overall logic of cables makes absolutely no sense. 
 
The entire amp and source chain is filled with resistors, which are is wound resistive wire... and are certainly not "audiophile grade". So, EVEN if SOMEHOW, by defying all science, aftermarket cables made a difference, they are such a small percentage of the overall cable being used in the entire system, it would be null and void anyways.
 
Aug 16, 2010 at 3:33 PM Post #133 of 579


Quote:
Not to mention the overall logic of cables makes absolutely no sense. 
 
The entire amp and source chain is filled with resistors, which are is wound resistive wire... and are certainly not "audiophile grade". So, EVEN if SOMEHOW, by defying all science, aftermarket cables made a difference, they are such a small percentage of the overall cable being used in the entire system, it would be null and void anyways.


Get a source better than the STX, then we'll talk. You missed the part where I said "sufficiently transparent gear". I owned both the ST and STX with various opamps and I too was hard pressed to find any cable differences.
 
Aug 16, 2010 at 3:35 PM Post #134 of 579
Shahrose, some blind tests, such as Hifi Wigwam's power cord was conducted with each listener getting a week with the cables. If something is not audible, it is not audible and the length of time spent listening will not change that. These subtleties you claim, what cable produced what change for you? Is there any consistency with those changes? Do your experiences match others who have listened to exactly the same kit? I think that your allegations are spurious to say the least.
 
It is reasonable to assume that there will be differences in hearing ability between all those who have done blind tests. Yet all the blind tests still show that claims to the effectiveness of cables cannot be reproduced. Your claim that is down to a lack of training and/or poor hearing is a gross assumption with no supporting evidence.
 
You then happily admit that cables do not necessarily make a difference. Then claim copper and silver sound different. Can you now please show how your experience can be replicated in others? If silver sounds different to copper, at least a majority of people will hear that difference without knowing which cable is which. Otherwise it is all in your head and not in the cable.
 
Shahrose, sorry, but you latch onto anything other than actual proof.
 
 
Aug 16, 2010 at 3:43 PM Post #135 of 579
sometimes I like to plug my cd1k(same drivers as the cd3k) straight into my DAC output, to get a good idea of how the opamps I'm rolling sound. I've tried many 2*RCA>female 1/8" jack cable, they all sounded way different. Yes, I can DBT them anytime you want fellas. Some are too bright, some are boring...strangely, my favorite is the one that shipped w/ the STX. Very high PRaT, it just sounds very very good. I would guess that Asus tried a lot of Y cables before choosing this one for the very purpose of being used w/ headphones.
 
my DAC runs on a proper DPS, is galvanically isolated from the computer, runs very fast and beefy opamps(LT1363, 1000V/ms, 60mA max) and the cd3k drivers are as sensitive/fast/transparent as can be.
 
I would not be able to hear the difference on an HFI-780 or on speakers....all the DBT-voodoo ppl always refer to old shootouts that were done w/ speakers in non-acoustically treated rooms w/o any room EQ correction whatsoever. I'm sure you guys are well aware that some good headphones allow to hear far more details than speakers ever will be able to.
 
and well, when I recabled my Manufaktur DT770/600Ω w/ the cryo-parts TWcu wire...it sounded like ----, distorted bass and dead trebles. I sold it to Currawong for his HD800, and he also said that it sounded pretty bad.
 
Surely the best sounding cables are not the most expensive, I will fully agree on this...and all those cables are made in China, some ppl make ridiculous markups. Yet, all the cables don't sound the same...that'd be way too simple.
 

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