[Head Injury]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenpunk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well said Uncle Erik! Sadly I am pretty sure that despite all the evidences of the contrary many people will still believe cable make a difference in 30 years time. I wonder what that says about the human race ?...

That they like to be right.

 

[MomijiTMO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle /img/forum/go_quote.gif And little girls don't change the outfit, then go online looking for opinions and approval from other girls.

You guys are killing me you know xD

 

[leeperry]

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Originally Posted by MacedonianHero /img/forum/go_quote.gif Funny, because I heard little to no difference between the stock HD650 cable and my SAA Equinox cable.

that would explain why they often show up in the sales forum

besides this guy managed to make a balanced cable....w/ 3 wires, and then came up w/ complete non sense to back it up: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/bal...saa-do-476358/

 

[Palpatine]

If phones like the T1 and HD800 ( and many others ) can sound so fantastically brilliant with stock cables... what's the point of trying to improve them, albeit even in an infinitely small way, by upgrading their cable?
Some cables do in fact look really cool... and if you have the extra moolah, why not... but don't expect sonic miracles.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Recabling is Head-Fi's equivalent of buying new outfits for a Barbie doll. Don't forget, hi-fi is 90% fashion, anyway. Almost everyone buys on cosmetic values and almost no one understands what goes on inside their equipment. Nor do they make any effort to understand. Those who have actually made an effort to understand cables find them ridiculous. If you think cables "work," then prove it. No one has. Nobody. Not in 30+ years of controversy. Maybe someone here will be the first, but I doubt it. You can play dress up with your headphones, but it doesn't change anything. The difference between Head-Fi'ers and little girls is that little girls know that Barbie is still Barbie when the outfit is changed.

The exact same thing can be said for amplifiers, source and DACs. For instance no one can tell the difference between say a Zana Deux and an EMU 0404... if the headphones are sufficiently powered there will be no difference, yet the people with money own a Zana Deux or a Benchmark DAC1 for the hell of it.

This if anything is headphone fashion, this is playing dress up to the extreme... not some $20 addition, cosmetic or not.

IF there is a difference in a recable is it worth $20?
IF there is a difference between DACs is it worth $2000?

What I'm saying is it's all superficial, we as individuals determine a products value, spending $1000 on a headphone might be normal for some and mind-blowing to others considering the minor difference in sound one gains between that and say a $30 headphone. Is it worth spending $2000 on a DAC when the same can be had for $200 is the large scale variant of is it worth spending $20 on a cable IF it makes a tiny improvement.

Now if SOME people think recabeling makes a difference that to them is a worthy upgrade... for the same reason if SOME people think a $2000 DAC makes a difference that is a worthy upgrade for them. This could be broken down into those spending $20 on a cable are slightly crazy while those spending $2000 on a DAC are ... well you get the picture.

 

[Deep Funk]

Sorry for your wallet...

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is it worth spending $2000 on a DAC when the same can be had for $200 is the large scale variant of is it worth spending $20 on a cable IF it makes a tiny improvement. This could be broken down into those spending $20 on a cable are slightly crazy while those spending $2000 on a DAC are ... well you get the picture.

The way I read what you typed is that a $20 recable is similar to a $2000 DAC. In order to make this comparison, you not only have to prove that a $20 recable makes an improvement and that a $2000 DAC makes an improvement, but you also have to prove that they make an equal improvement.

And if a recable affords the same improvement as a DAC 100x as expensive, you'd think everyone would place the importance of a recable higher than the headphone itself!

I have no doubts that a recable can make a difference, although I'm wary of the difference a $20 cable can make. I also have no doubt that a $2000 DAC can make a difference, though I'm wary of the performance/price ratio. In my mind, though, a $2000 DAC makes a lot more sense than a $2000 cable.

DACs are also, though perhaps not the $2000 ones, more universally accepted as upgrades. Not saying that majority makes for more weight in the argument. The majority of people don't know the first clue about quantum mechanics, but it doesn't mean it's false. Though I will say that, in an argument with little/no scientific backing and is 99% subjective, I am more likely to side with what's most followed, until I hear the difference myself.

Which won't be very soon, because I've no interest in recabling and I've no wallet for a $2000 DAC.

 

[leeperry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now if SOME people think recabeling makes a difference that to them is a worthy upgrade

you know, as Currawong said, some old time members here like to rub in that cable are plain bs to them...and troll every cable thread w/ their very own personal experience, which -supposedly- should be taken as a hard proof...because we all know that the higher your posts count, the smarter you are.

BTW, I'd suggest swapping the LT1364 in your zero DAC for two LT1363/LT1028/AD797...you might very much enjoy the increased SS depth.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Head Injury /img/forum/go_quote.gif The way I read what you typed is that a $20 recable is similar to a $2000 DAC. In order to make this comparison, you not only have to prove that a $20 recable makes an improvement and that a $2000 DAC makes an improvement, but you also have to prove that they make an equal improvement. And if a recable affords the same improvement as a DAC 100x as expensive, you'd think everyone would place the importance of a recable higher than the headphone itself!

You should of read it as price-performance-ratio ~ if a $20 cable makes a 0.02x difference does a $2000 DAC make a 2.0x difference. I'm not saying a $20 cable improvement makes the same difference as a $2000 DAC upgrade... I'm saying in perspective it is as worthy an upgrade as the expensive DAC if at the end of the day you can't DBT the cable or DBT the DAC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Head Injury /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have no doubts that a recable can make a difference, although I'm wary of the difference a $20 cable can make. I also have no doubt that a $2000 DAC can make a difference, though I'm wary of the performance/price ratio. In my mind, though, a $2000 DAC makes a lot more sense than a $2000 cable.

Well I would never buy an expensive cable, but then again I wouldn't buy an expensive DAC. Price-performance-ratio is the bottom line here... let's say money isn't an issue... you'd have both the best DAC and best cable for the hell of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Head Injury /img/forum/go_quote.gif DACs are also, though perhaps not the $2000 ones, more universally accepted as upgrades.

Hehe something else comes to mind that I can't talk about... a lot of people do it so it's universally accepted, not a mental disorder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif you know, as Currawong said, some old time members here like to rub in that cable are plain bs to them...and troll every cable thread w/ their very own personal experience, which -supposedly- shoud be taken as a hard proof...because we all know that the higher your posts count, the smarter you are.

...post count or sign up date... in which case uncle erik is a newb, I've been around months longer! ... and yourself years longer... whatever you say goes sir!

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif BTW, I'd suggest swapping the LT1364 in your zero DAC for two LT1363/LT1028/AD797...you might very much enjoy the increased SS depth.

In comparison to stock my current opamp config if miles better... but I haven't tried those you mentioned. In fact I like it better than my Singlepower Slam for detail. Do you have a link where I can get those opamps?

 

[jawang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif The exact same thing can be said for amplifiers, source and DACs. For instance no one can tell the difference between say a Zana Deux and an EMU 0404... if the headphones are sufficiently powered there will be no difference, yet the people with money own a Zana Deux or a Benchmark DAC1 for the hell of it. This if anything is headphone fashion, this is playing dress up to the extreme... not some $20 addition, cosmetic or not. IF there is a difference in a recable is it worth $20? IF there is a difference between DACs is it worth $2000? What I'm saying is it's all superficial, we as individuals determine a products value, spending $1000 on a headphone might be normal for some and mind-blowing to others considering the minor difference in sound one gains between that and say a $30 headphone. Is it worth spending $2000 on a DAC when the same can be had for $200 is the large scale variant of is it worth spending $20 on a cable IF it makes a tiny improvement. Now if SOME people think recabeling makes a difference that to them is a worthy upgrade... for the same reason if SOME people think a $2000 DAC makes a difference that is a worthy upgrade for them. This could be broken down into those spending $20 on a cable are slightly crazy while those spending $2000 on a DAC are ... well you get the picture.

That is complete bs and I shocked that you believe that. It is very easy to measure DACs and amps, and prove without a shadow of a doubt that there are differences between them. You can't define what it means for a headphone to be fully powered, there is no magical cutoff where a headphone suddenly fails to receive any benefit from cleaner and stronger signal. You also can't account for euphoric distortion caused by tubes and/or circuit design, which adds beneficial coloration for many people

How do you know that your cable is improving your sound? Can you prove that it is not making your sound quality lower? ...because you can easily do that with amps/dacs

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawang /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is complete bs and I shocked that you believe that. [size=x-small]It is very easy to measure DACs and amps, and prove without a shadow of a doubt that there are differences between them.[/size] You can't define what it means for a headphone to be fully powered, there is no magical cutoff where a headphone suddenly fails to receive any benefit from cleaner and stronger signal. You also can't account for euphoric distortion caused by tubes and/or circuit design, which adds beneficial coloration for many people How do you know that your cable is improving your sound? Can you prove that it is not making your sound quality lower? ...because you can easily do that with amps/dacs

To the part that's bold. You may be able to measure differences, but you can't place a subjective, qualitative value on that measurable difference. That qualitative value changes from person to person and the placebo effect works just as heavily in such a setting when each person hears the difference and puts a value to it. Some hear subtle improvements, while others think it's a night and day experience. Some think one is better than the other, others think it's the reverse, while others think it's just up to the listener and which sound signature they're looking for.

I think this is the point he's making. On the face of it, the subjective overlay is so heavy in all of this that there's little (not zero) place for absolute opinions on quality/value.

So, it's quite amusing to see some smuggly ridiculing cable believers while they're being had and big time when it comes to amps/dacs and cans.

In the end, it's what amuses my ears and I avoid more and more making absolute claims either way. I can fully understand Acix's love for the K702's and his feeling that it's the superior can to the HD800, for instance. There's a current rave about the Symphones Magnums. I'm now underwhelmed and don't wish to spoil the party, so I'll stay out.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes? Recabling is Head-Fi's equivalent of buying new outfits for a Barbie doll. Don't forget, hi-fi is 90% fashion, anyway. Almost everyone buys on cosmetic values and almost no one understands what goes on inside their equipment. Nor do they make any effort to understand. Those who have actually made an effort to understand cables find them ridiculous. Further, even a basic grasp of cost accounting shows you how manufacturers lie, cheat and deceive when it comes to pricing. It's one of those lies that's left out in the open, like an elephant in the room. No one points it out, but there it is. The cost of manufacture is nothing compared to what you get shafted for. Is it really any secret why there are so damn many cable manufacturers out there? That's because there's no investment required, no knowledge, no skill, nothing much at all required to whip up a hype machine and fleece the idiots. If you think cables "work," then prove it. No one has. Nobody. Not in 30+ years of controversy. Maybe someone here will be the first, but I doubt it. You can play dress up with your headphones, but it doesn't change anything. The difference between Head-Fi'ers and little girls is that little girls know that Barbie is still Barbie when the outfit is changed.

My vote for post of the year (I know it's only March), but Uncle Erik you have outdone yourself!

Game, set and match....Elvis has left the building folks!

 

[jawang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif To the part that's bold. You may be able to measure differences, but you can't place a subjective, qualitative value on that measurable difference. That qualitative value changes from person to person and the placebo effect works just as heavily in such a setting when each person hears the difference and puts a value to it. Some hear subtle improvements, while others think it's a night and day experience. Some think one is better than the other, others think it's the reverse, while others think it's just up to the listener and which sound signature they're looking for. I think this is the point he's making. On the face of it, the subjective overlay is so heavy in all of this that there's little (not zero) place for absolute opinions on quality/value. So, it's quite amusing to see some smuggly ridiculing cable believers while they're being had and big time when it comes to amps/dacs and cans. In the end, it's what amuses my ears and I avoid more and more making absolute claims either way. I can fully understand Acix's love for the K702's and his feeling that it's the superior can to the HD800, for instance. There's a current rave about the Symphones Magnums. I'm now underwhelmed and don't wish to spoil the party, so I'll stay out.

Yes, there are plenty of ripoffs in every category of the audio chain, including headphones. Do bose/dres really cost $300 to make? For that matter, do any headphones at all cost $300 to make?

Many people have passed legitimate DBTs when comparing amps (and even some dacs), but you sure can't say that about cables. Also, when you look at the cost of parts and the time/money investment it would take to build an equivalent DIY amp/dac, you'll find many amps/dacs that are good values. Sure, you'll find ripoffs too, but that's unavoidable with any product.

Now look at cables. Outside of DIY, how many recabling services would you consider to be a good value? Scratch that, EVEN within diy circles, do you have any evidence that DIY recabling is worthwhile (recabling to fix broken connections, or converting to balanced are different things and dont count)?


Here is the problem I have with his statement. Talking purely about audible sound quality...
- with amps/dacs, we cannot prove that the improvement is worth the cost
- with cable upgrades, we cannot prove that there is any improvement whatsoever

 

[JxK]

Quote:

The simple truth is that resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C) are the only cable parameters that affect performance in the range below radio frequencies. The signal has no idea whether it is being transmitted through cheap or expensive RLC. Yes, you have to pay a little more than rock bottom for decent plugs, shielding, insulation, etc., to avoid reliability problems, and you have to pay attention to resistance in longer connections. In basic electrical performance, however, a nice pair of straightened-out wire coat hangers with the ends scraped is not a whit inferior to a $2000 gee-whiz miracle cable. Nor is 16-gauge lamp cord at 18¢ a foot. Ultrahigh-priced cables are the biggest scam in consumer electronics, and the cowardly surrender of nearly all audio publications to the pressures of the cable marketers is truly depressing to behold.

Guys, basic high school physics teaches us that recabling does nothing for sound quality. People who say otherwise haven't bothered to do a double blind test and are likely in denial about the money they wasted.

That said, recabling isn't necessarily a bad idea. As has already been mentioned, if your cable is microphonic, overly long/short, poorly made, etc. then recabling may be an option to consider. But to say that doing so will improve sound quality to any degree whatsoever is a fallacy. Whatever your belief, physics is an absolute.

 

[Drubbing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenpunk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well said Uncle Erik! Sadly I am pretty sure that despite all the evidences of the contrary many people will still believe cable make a difference in 30 years time. I wonder what that says about the human race ?...

The older I get, the less I get surprised by people's capacity for infinite stupidity. And that includes retirees who sink their life savings into get rich quick investments, when a lifetime of judiciousness should have instilled a microgram of common sense into them.

Did anyone else ever realise the guy on here who covered his gear with 'special' electro-damping paper was yanking everyone's chain?

You can say/write anything with a straight face here, and the suckers will line up.