[Willakan]

@Torr:
The argument can be made for not overusing DRC as the sound it produces is not that of real instruments. Preserving the dynamic range of the original recording will result in more natural sound in most cases: that said, when half the instruments on a track have no real-life counterparts and the vocals are autotuned to hell and back, god knows what it would sound like "naturally."

 

[Torr]

Quote:

These guys sound like they have no interest in a natural or accurate sounding recording.
Obviously they don't record classical, blues, folk, country, bluegrass, gospel, jazz, etc.
Sounds like they are only interested in manipulating sound.
Sounds like you fell in with a bad crowd!   LOL!

 
I have no desire to call anyone out, so I'm not going to go into any specifics but the studio in question is actually home to several engineers whose work has won grammys in the country music category. Actually, probably 75% of what they record is country music. Naming country music artists who have worked with those engineers would be like going through a whose who of country music.

 

[Chris J]

Quote:

 
I have no desire to call anyone out, so I'm not going to go into any specifics but the studio in question is actually home to several engineers whose work has won grammys in the country music category. Actually, probably 75% of what they record is country music. Naming country music artists who have worked with those engineers would be like going through a whose who of country music.

Then called me confused..............

I'm not a big fan of Country but the stuff I have listened to critically normally sounds (to varying degrees): warm/natural/accurate.
Your comments on these recording engineers made me think they must specialize in Metal or Rap or Dance or Electro-Pop: some type of music where samples and sound manipulation are the order of the day.
 

 

[maverickronin]

An argument for mild use of DRC can be made by those who don't want to go deaf from their music...

 

[Willakan]

Indeed, live high-dynamic range classical either has you listening pretty damn loud in places or doing the "Dance of the Seven Volume Control/s (settings)."

 

[Assimilator702]

Quote:

Thought I'd just throw another group who's recording quality does not do the band justice. Blind Guardian. I really can't figure this one out. Listening straight off the CD (mp3 might be a little worse but I haven't ABXed it) it just sounds veiled. Everything seems muted, like the upper-mids are just gone. I'd blame my system (a700's arn't known for mids) except that groups that should sound similar (Nightwish or Opeth for example) sound much cleaner and more complete. It makes me really sad because Blind Guardian is one of my favorite bands ever and the sq is really ruining it for me right now 

.
 
Anyone want to try and explain what compressed/loudified music sounds like, what specifically does a victim of the loudness war sound like? I am suspicious that this is simply a conscious decision on the band's part for an extra "warm" sound. I'm not experienced enough to tell though honestly (and I don't have any other good gear to try it out on).

Well take the blutac out of those A700's. I have a pair of A700 and they need no mods at all.....very detailed in the mids....but I also have some ok source components and DACs.
 
You might want to get a decent dedicated CD player and use your E7/E9 combo to re-listen to some of your favorite CD's.
 
 
 

 

[Assimilator702]

Quote:

Then called me confused..............

I'm not a big fan of Country but the stuff I have listened to critically normally sounds (to varying degrees): warm/natural/accurate.
Your comments on these recording engineers made me think they must specialize in Metal or Rap or Dance or Electro-Pop: some type of music where samples and sound manipulation are the order of the day.
 

This might be a bit OT but METAL should NEVER be grouped with (c)Rap, Electro or HipHop.
 
Any TRUE METAL band uses instruments....no electronics other than maybe light keyboard.
 
The only samples should be from triggered drum sounds in bands where the tempo is very fast....and that just for clarity....not effect.
 
And even a band that has heavy sampling of sounds....those sounds are composed and mixed into the final mix......as opposed to an electronic based music where the sounds are all done on the computer.....vocals are mixed in from real recordings.
 
Metal actually has more in common with the Rock or Country genre than any other.....real instruments played by human beings.
 
Just wanted to clear that up.
 

 

[Chris J]

Quote:

This might be a bit OT but METAL should NEVER be grouped with (c)Rap, Electro or HipHop.
 
Any TRUE METAL band uses instruments....no electronics other than maybe light keyboard.
 
The only samples should be from triggered drum sounds in bands where the tempo is very fast....and that just for clarity....not effect.
 
And even a band that has heavy sampling of sounds....those sounds are composed and mixed into the final mix......as opposed to an electronic based music where the sounds are all done on the computer.....vocals are mixed in from real recordings.
 
Metal actually has more in common with the Rock or Country genre than any other.....real instruments played by human beings.
 
Just wanted to clear that up.
 

Fair enough, I haven't listened to Metal in years.
I seem to remember that some bands did a lot to Manipulate the sounds?
Where would you classify NIN?
 
Really makes me wonder who these recording engineers are that Torr is referring to?
 

 

[Slackboy72]

I wonder if the OP would consider The Cult's Electric or the Chili Peppers BSSM to be bad sounding.
Truly some of Rick Rubin's greatest work.

 

[Assimilator702]

Quote:

Fair enough, I haven't listened to Metal in years.
I seem to remember that some bands did a lot to Manipulate the sounds?
Where would you classify NIN?
 
Really makes me wonder who these recording engineers are that Torr is referring to?
 

NIN would be more of an industrial/electronic band that uses a metal style ....or elements for some of it's music. But deffinately on the electronic/industrial side of the scale.
 
Ministry would be similar as they use machines in the studio....maybe some guitars..... but live they play instruments and they fall within a Metal style....but Metal style or technique doesn't qualify for being a METAL band.
 
Most of the time when machines are used it's just because theres one person behind the music.....but of course if theres a heavy electronic element to the music that will obviously be a factor.....and if the recording is pegged into the -1 DB area it's not because the engineer doesn't know what he's doing.....it's a push from the record company to crank the volume in the mastering process.
 
I know several recording engineers/mastering tehnicians and not one that I've spoken to with agrees with it as it's a mis-use of technology the same way using an autotune machine is over used to put effects on vocals.
 
 
 
 

 

[Chris J]

Quote:

NIN would be more of an industrial/electronic band that uses a metal style ....or elements for some of it's music. But deffinately on the electronic/industrial side of the scale.
 
Ministry would be similar as they use machines in the studio....maybe some guitars..... but live they play instruments and they fall within a Metal style....but Metal style or technique doesn't qualify for being a METAL band.
 
Most of the time when machines are used it's just because theres one person behind the music.....but of course if theres a heavy electronic element to the music that will obviously be a factor.....and if the recording is pegged into the -1 DB area it's not because the engineer doesn't know what he's doing.....it's a push from the record company to crank the volume in the mastering process.
 
I know several recording engineers/mastering tehnicians and not one that I've spoken to with agrees with it as it's a mis-use of technology the same way using an autotune machine is over used to put effects on vocals.
 
 
 
 

Thanks for the reply, interesting to read another point of view.
I do listen to some rock stuff and some pop music which is obviously heavily compressed.............much as I enjoy the music, the way the sound is overly compressed and processed is really not to my taste. I really don't mind a bit of compression, but when I hear obvious clipping on peaks and no dynamic range I think we have a problem.
 
I wonder if these mastering engineers and recording engineers don't want to say anything that might upset the record labels they ultimately work for?
 
 

 

[subzer0]

Quote:

It makes sense that others have musical tastes which favor loudness. When you think about it, what is it that most people enjoy when they play their favorite songs? It's not the crystal clear high hat that is moving them, it's not the clarity of the voice or the realism of the soundstage or the feel of the bass. What the average person enjoys is the rythm, the beat, and the chorus; none of which are compromised by a louder sound; in fact, a louder and muddier sound helps emphasize the importance of rythm. Thus I slowly came to the realization that we are not the champions for properly recorded music that I thought we were. We are merely people who prefer a style of tracking, mixing, and mastering that is no longer favored by the industry or population at large. We are simply people with a different opinion on what sounds good.
 
So, why does modern music sound the way it does? Because that's what people like nowadays.

A nice post, but its really just a nice way of saying people are stupid and will accept whatever is fed to them.  
 
 

This might be a bit OT but METAL should NEVER be grouped with (c)Rap, Electro or HipHop.
 

 
 
What about Anthrax with Public Enemy?

 

[Chris J]

Quote:

A nice post, but its really just a nice way of saying people are stupid and will accept whatever is fed to them.  
 

Yes!
That is basically what I was getting at!
 

 

[Zecias]

Quote:

I spent some time with my brother over the holidays. My brother is an engineer at a major studio, so a lot of my time was spent hanging out in studios with other engineers and recording industry professionals. That has changed my perspective on what is going on in the industry. I used to believe that the loudness war was ruining music, that this was an obvious and subjective fact, and that it was the result of studios competing to create the loudest albums. Over the holidays, I've come to realize that I was partially mistaken. The fact is that modern music needs to be loud, with very little dynamic range and all of the instruments up; not because there is some competition going on between the studios but because that's simply the kind of sound that modern musical tastes favor. The fact appears to be that neither engineers nor the typical listeners favor the same things we do; they actually prefer the louder, less dynamic sound that the studios create today. When I mentioned how the cymbal in one of their recordings sounded like it exploded into static due to the heavy compression, I was surprised to hear that they had specifically compressed it in such a way to bring out the "fuzz" (I don't recall if that was the exact term they used, but it was a term that made what I thought of as static sound like a desirable characteristic), what I thought was the unintended consequence of trying to make it louder is actually the sound they were going for.
 
It makes sense that others have musical tastes which favor loudness. When you think about it, what is it that most people enjoy when they play their favorite songs? It's not the crystal clear high hat that is moving them, it's not the clarity of the voice or the realism of the soundstage or the feel of the bass. What the average person enjoys is the rythm, the beat, and the chorus; none of which are compromised by a louder sound; in fact, a louder and muddier sound helps emphasize the importance of rythm. Thus I slowly came to the realization that we are not the champions for properly recorded music that I thought we were. We are merely people who prefer a style of tracking, mixing, and mastering that is no longer favored by the industry or population at large. We are simply people with a different opinion on what sounds good.
 
So, why does modern music sound the way it does? Because that's what people like nowadays.

Alot of the music of the current of music generation is catered towards individuals(including myself) who have never even heard of this "natural" sound. So it wouldn't really be fair to say that the majority of people prefer compressed to uncompressed. Regarding your statement: "a louder and muddier sound helps emphasize the importance of rythm", this is just my personal opinion, but i would think that an emphasis on percussion would bring out the rhythm in a song. That is, after all, what percussion is meant to do. As an example, heavily rhythm based genres like hip hop and rap tend to favor percussion-heavy instrumentals. So i would say a well-defined, thumpy sound from the drums would serve to improve the rhythm over the "loudness".
 
On a separate, yet similar, note  i wouldn't say that natural(uncompressed) is better than loud(compressed), or vice versa. As Torr implied, it's more of a style; the way the music is recorded and mastered is subjective to opinion and all boils down to personal preference. Having said that, i feel disappointed that there are no more natural sounding artists because we are lacking variety. The fact that i'm  18 years old and this is my first time hearing this natural approach to recording and mastering shows how everyone is conforming. There are so many different ways to approach music, but everyone is going for the same sound. It's sad that new generations will be oblivious of this natural sound. The lack of innovation really hurts the variety of music that we can listen to these days. Like with many other forms of pop culture(video games, movies), success brings out a slew of imitations hoping to reach the same heights as the original. While the success stories spew out the same creations, too afraid to innovate in fear to losing their audience. Of course this is not true for every artist, but it is for much more than there should be.

 

[Brooko]

Quote:

One way to check is by looking at the dynamic range of a album. You can search this site to find a lot of albums dynamic range.
 
http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?sort=id&order=desc&page=1

Thanks for this!  Just going through the thread now.  Many thanks to the many knowledgable posters too - especially LFF - very much enjoying this thread so far