[MacDEF]

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Originally posted by Gluegun Alright, so now Vertigo is CERTIFIABLY insane..... *notices "rap" in Vertigo's music preferences comments, and then notices what he said recently* Lah-dee-dah.....

Um... I listen to rap sometimes, too. Am I now no longer a "reputable" person when it comes to assessing sound quality?

But it's interesting what Vert said in reply to you. You said he should try listening through a decent sound card setup. He had an M-Audio Delta Dio + Cal Audio Gamma. Sounds like a better setup than the vast majority of people, no?

 

[pigmode]

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Originally posted by Tim D My standing is merely as follows...computer audio doesn't have the best price/performance. It gives away performance to either convenience, or music "borrowing". Only when you consider music "borrowing" as part of an equation in pricing...may you have an argument for price/performance of computer audio.

Huh?!?

I just wanted to play Quake 3.

 

[Gluegun]

I was just taking a stab, that's all.....

And I dunno about the sound card thing.

*shrugs*

 

[chych]

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O.K. my Wharefedale Anniversary models cost $81.00 shipped and my ASL Waves were under $200. I consider that a pretty good price/performance ratio even compared to computer speakers. There you go, a nonphilosophical example of price/performance. I am not an elitist either, I have just found that there are relatively few true bargains with most popular, mass-market items, including "computer" speakers.

HAH! I have you beat! I think I have the best price to performance ratio here for ANY system

:: Altec Lansing ADA885 "THX" computer speakers. Price: free

I recently set these up in 4 point mode, got the two speakers behind me just to make my computer system look a bit more elite. Funny thing is, I still haven't turned them on

They are just too awful.

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I had a M-Audio Delta Dio + Cal Audio Gamma combo before. That's what, $350+ invested in the soundcard right there. It still sounded utterly horrible.

Well, I have a M-Audio card too, except it is fed to my ART DI/O, and it is an awesome source. Only problem is, there never is good media on the computer to output to it (internal cd drive blows, mp3s are grainy... occasional well recorded mp3s and lossless audio do apply).

 

[Gluegun]

OOOO!!! I have the best Price/Performance speaker TOO!!!

Bose 901!!

PRICE: FREE!!!

 

[chych]

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OOOO!!! I have the best Price/Performance speaker TOO!!! Bose 901!! PRICE: FREE!!!

Holy crap @#$#@%#@%@#% You paid WAY too much for those

 

[Tim D]

Strange...I think I've mentioned that I also have outputted digital signal to my Art D/IO from computer audio and noted the limitations of typically poor computer samples.

Do you want to realize how bad computer audio sounds every time you minimize a window or start up or shut down windows. Or do we now need to download or buy 16-bit 44 or 48khz sampled sound files for themes or games.

Sometimes they aren't even 16 bit sound files, and most the time audio samples from games and such are 22khz which is like FM radio. Cept my FM tuner is also more bearable. However my cheap set of midilands is absolutely acceptable for when I need to kill someone in a game on the internet. Or when I need to hear application bells and whistles. I want to hear *bangs*, *booms* and *dings* through lower-fidelity equipment. See the problem is it is cyclic. People don't have utmost high expectations for computer audio. Content designers for games or applications that create and produce the sound or sound engines know this. And hardware engineers producing consumer computer audio also know this. I want a soundcard that works, is highly compatible and problem free through multiple platforms, and is the least drain on computer performance. Sound quality used to be my utmost concern, but I realized I was looking in the wrong area. Course Mp3 has shifted priorities more towards sound quality...this is a great thing I am not against it. But I'll continue to wait for catchup in *ahem* price/performance.

Funny people with quite decent computer digital front-ends seem more discerning of the weaknesses...where is the logic?

 

[pigmode]

There's a trick to get those to sound good. You have to position them so the sound waves bounce around just like in the diagrams. It's science.

 

[pigmode]

Well that settles it, Tim. I'm selling the Crossfires and turning down sound quality in Quake 3. If it gives me a 2fps increase which in turn allows me, one or two more times per game, to connect with the Railgun while executing a 180 degree spin in mid-jump then I'll be happy.

 

[chych]

Well Tim D...

El crapo mp3s most certainly sound better out of my DI/O from my nonresampling sound card than the built in soundcard, and most certainly sound better out of my Altec lansings than out of any $20 speaker. I fail to really see your logic when you say $20 are "good enough" for computer audio, because I most certainly do not think so. A difference for the better is obvious, between, say stock labtecs and say, csw speakers. Definetely makes those crappy mp3s and whatnot sound better (actually I have a lot of modtracker music files (~112kbps) I still play, even worse than mp3s, but after all it really is the music I am after, still... and with better equipment, they ARE more enjoyable).

And, um, who cares about windows start up sounds and what not? A lot of computer audio isn't that bad, 44.1khz samples for more recent games (though the idiot gamers who are pushing for 5000fps put sound to like 11khz, like how they make quake 3 resemble doom).

Of course, in the end, my speakers were free so...

 

[Tim D]

pigmode:

Hey, if I had to choose between hearing the sound of me dieing better, compared to hearing the sound of someone else dieing worse...I'd choose the latter...but thats me. Also I just don't get THAT much more enjoyment from higher fidelity death noises...for me I just like the fact that you frag someone over trying to make it the most realistic hi-fidelity frag with some rumble pack on my chest so that "death" is more realistic or something.

--

Also I'm not saying its not a good thing to research and buy a good set of computer speakers that excel in price/performance. I was just noting that it was a little funny to be so *nitpicky* about the sound qualities of computer speakers IN REFERENCE TO MUSIC listening. Also listening to Mp3's as best as possible is indeed a good thing too. It is just priorities, and I think people were just getting a little carried away about the sound qualities of their speaker x vs speaker y for computer audio.

It is just funny to me how people are comparing different computer speakers when playing music as if it was the difference between HD580 and AKG501. Not that it isn't important to do so, but most people want speakers that play sounds like *wuuuuuuuh* good enough.

 

[Xevion]

Gluegun: Teeheehee - but I HIGHLY reccomend you actually try and listen to the speakers first, I have heard all kinds of PC speakers, and while my ear might not be as good as yours, I have somewhat easily definable tastes (Warm, smooth treble, deep and slightly punchy bass)

Yep - computers suck at imaging. Badly. That dosen't stop them from having fair imaging however.

For those of you with a system that has tiny sattelites, like the PCWorks and BA635, you can have incredible imaging (By PC standards of course), You need to hold the speakers in such a position as to be about 2.5 feet from your head, about 30 degrees to your side from straight foward, and have them point so the theoretical lines from the center of the speakers goes somewhere around/slightly behind your head. When done properly, the sound just hangs in the air, and it is very hard to tell where the sound is coming from. Tiny sats will do that. An idea computer audio setup would literally have the speakers wired to the celing and held at the perfect level.


Computer speakers tend to have a huge weakness, and that is the lower mids, and high crossovers because of their small size.


I have one audio setup, and it is my computer audio setup. The thing is - I am basically bypassing my soundcard with the digital out, and sound quality is noticably better on my consumer grade Yamaha reciever. I will be adding a Denon CD player soon enough which is replacing a portable CD player as my main CD unit. I use this system for everything - computer audio, critical listening (Well, most critical listening, if you could call it that using a portable CDP+airhead+HD600), and all casual listening.

So my computer is basically just one audio input for my stereo. With the real CD player, I will be able to turn the computer off and listen to music on my computer speakers like i have never heard.

I will soon redo my room based around my stereo first, and my computer second. I will need some speaker stands that are high enough, find a plce to put them and my computer, and I don't give a damn if the whole setup takes up three quarters of my room. I want the best sound I can get. and I am shaping my computer and audio system to me needs the best I can on my limited budget. I am even foregoing upgrading my PC for another year or so to do this.

Mind you, this is a pretty tricky feat. I need space for the computer, the 2 monitors, the reciever, CD player, speakers themselves, keyboard, mouse, other stuff like alarm clock (Although it is all easy). I can't use a corner setup because it won't leave me room for speakers on stands. Noone makes a computer desk designed with the storage of a computer, reciever, cd player, 2 monitors, and be built in such a way that I can have stand mounted bookshelf speakers either. If anyone has any good, cheap ideas regarding this, I am all ears.

I have gone through a few sets of computer speakers, and they can sound much different. The difference between the Altec Lansing ACS-48 and the Klipsch V2.400s is much more significant then the difference between a pair of Sennheiser HD600s and a pair of Grado RS-2s.

 

[Tim D]

Oh yah I chose a $20 dollar pair of midiland with the least suck/price ratio possible...granted they still are pretty bad...but I've heard more expensive ones that are far worse. They are the KSC-35 of computer speakers! Lol...

Oh and hell yah computer speakers vary a lot more than hi-fi headphones...again this is also why I found it a bit funny that people are nitpicking computer speakers especially in regards to "soundstage" or "imaging". Not that I don't believe there are differences...just that IMO comparing the difference of these things in an AKG501 vs HD600 is much more interesting a comparison. I'm sorry must be something to do with being a headphone enthusiast on a headphone enthusiast's page.

As for the hybrid computer audio/home audio setup, I would have considered it if it was not for the limitation that I have home audio speakers, and there is no way you can get that to work well with desktop audio. I don't know what Vertigo thinks about his new speakers...but even my aging pair of speakers that just ummm wouldn't fit on a desk offer too much an improvement over even the better computer speakers I've heard, that I would really *care* about top-notch music reproduction from computer speakers. I just like hearing the *Booooms* *argggghh* *wuuuuuhs* and *dings* of computer audio.

As for my digital front end...I can't tell you if the Yamaha digital out is superior, inferior, or equivalent to that of SBLive. Does it resample? Most consumer cards do. I do know that my DAC section being the Art D/IO is a strong point. According to tangent's review, it is stronger than the Audiophile 24/96 card's DAC section.

Given the right media, it really is quite strong for computer audio and I would try and hook it up to my main system with a switcher except again I'd need to deal with cabling/switching issues as well as the fact that my main speakers don't fit left and right of the monitor. Oh and the fact that the computer in itself is noisy, again just showing that when it comes to music listening I'm just more picky. I would just consider computer fan noise a huge distraction to listening to my main speakers on my stereo. Some people can deal with moderate noise floors, or mp3 artifacts, or computer fans...I can totally accept these things with gaming noises...but not music.

 

[Vertigo-1]

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Only problem is, there never is good media on the computer to output to it (internal cd drive blows, mp3s are grainy... occasional well recorded mp3s and lossless audio do apply).

And there, chych, you have hit on the ugly downright truth of it all. I downgraded my computer's sound system because of the reasons Tim D is trying to say...the only sounds I listen to out of my PC are gaming sounds. No music, and no movies. Instead of having wires running in and out of this and that, I figure I'm much better off just going with the most versatile and software compatible soundcard that's on the market, which is currently the Sblive. I've just realized it's simply not worth it. It's just that once you go with a nice external CDP, it's very hard to go back to PC based music. In fact when I look back I can't even believe I defended MP3s and soundcards at one time.

Of course not everybody has the luxury of leaving their PC for a seperate sound system...space could be a constriction. I wouldn't say price is a constriction though given what you have to spend on a decent soundcard setup anyways like those Art DIOs and M-Audio cards, you can easily get a intro level audiophile CDP (ironically I was the one being told this in the past, now it's the other way around

). But of course, if you're stuck with the whole "free music" idea, than I can't help you.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Noone makes a computer desk designed with the storage of a computer, reciever, cd player, 2 monitors, and be built in such a way that I can have stand mounted bookshelf speakers either. If anyone has any good, cheap ideas regarding this, I am all ears.

Xevion, you need an AnthroCart

Seriously, my Anthro desk has a main desk surface that is 48" by around 25-30" (for desk/workspace). It then has two upper shelves that are 48" x 18" (the lower one for my two monitors, the one above that one for whatever else I want to put there -- audio equip, etc.). It also has a slide-out keyboard/mouse drawer, and three smaller shelves off of the side of the frame (one on the bottom for the CPU, and the other two for storage, phone, etc.).

You can actually get speaker stands that attach to the side of the cart

I currently have my sats mounted to the bottom of the upper shelf, in pretty much the configuration you described (hanging down pointing at an angle for the best soundstage).

With Anthro, you basically design your own desk. The quality is top-notch with a lifetime warranty. Their stuff is built like tanks.

http://www.anthro.com/