[ayz]

 
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Quote:

@ayz
 
Some things you seem to misunderstand:
 
1)  Your opinion in regards to the build quality of a machine is not fact - it's just your opinion.
 
2)  You missed the point - from a design perspective if there's no need for it why bother?  It's probably due to the fact that it's cheaper.
 
3)  We don't go around insulting your gear.  I could go all day and take stabs at your MBP, but don't.  Why?  Some of us realize the benefits of each platform and have common courtesy for other members and their choices.  Sorry you don't.
 
Also, I didn't mention a Hackintosh - not once.
 
4)  Even if that were true (which isn't, it's a poor attempt at insulting me again) it doesn't excuse you from breaking forum rules.
 
5)  Except the fact that your perceived quality is an opinion.  As for the "seven instead of an eight", hardly.  A seven isn't "garbage" - it's average and maybe a fair rating given your needs.  In stark contrast if I were to give a MBP a one out of ten and call it garbage you'd surely question how in the heck I came to such a conclusion. 
 
This was the point, if you're going to call a system garbage you surely better have a reason to backup such an assertion - judging by how you're desperately trying to imply you meant something entirely different and separate yourself from it it's obvious you didn't.  All you seem to be able to do now is harp on the lack of a unibody - quite different from the complete rubbish you'd just throw out

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you're right, it's all opinion on build quality, not fact. also the phenomenon that a steel bar is sturdier than a plastic rod is again just my opinion, not fact. because you enjoy driving your ford explorer more than a toyota 4runner and don't have too many problems with it, clearly all the reliability ratings are just subjective opinion and should be ignored.
 
i'm not sure what point you're arguing here besides "PC notebooks are better than you think they are." there is not a single PC notebook out there that I would prefer over a macbook pro, so I don't see the relevance in me giving any more or less credit to PC notebooks. What are you expecting to hear, exactly? "congratulations, PCs are slightly less not-preferable to a macbook pro?"
 
also if you're not addressing hackintoshes then i'm not sure why you're even in here. the basis of most of this thread was paying for a mac vs hackintoshing a PC. i recommend doing a search for "Windows 7 vs OSX" and re-pasting everything you said into that thread.

 

[ayz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Care to clarify how a seven - according to your example - constitutes garbage exactly?  This remark implied that all Windows based laptops were garbage.  No one's putting words in your mouth, this is what you yourself wrote.

Wait so you're just upset I used the word "garbage"? So if I wrote "sub-comparable quality of parts" all will be well in the world? In that case please pretend I did so and stop posting. Didn't realize you were writing 5-paragraph essays simply because of semantics.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

An interesting note to your interesting note.  I've down a 'teardown and rebuild' of both a Gateway (P-7805u) and a Macbook (Late 2007), and they were both very similar in both design and quality.  The Macbook was a more painful endeavor to take apart and rebuild, though.
 
Remember what has been said.  You can't compare low-end PCs to high-end prices.  The higher-level Sony machines are actually decent, although I agree with you on the poor construction and configuration of their mid/low end machines.  The same goes with Acer, their low end machines are terrible, but I've had nothing but success with their high end machines.

I have to agree on the MBP tear down, at least the 07'.  Friend had a fried logic board and it was quite bad to take apart compared to my Vostro.
 
Actually, an anecdotal experience in "quality" - my Vostro has gone 3+ years.  My friend's MBP had that fried logic board shortly after his year was up, and Apple obviously decided not to replace it.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ayz
 
you're right, it's all opinion on build quality, not fact. also the phenomenon that a steel bar is sturdier than a plastic rod is again just my opinion, not fact. because you enjoy driving your ford explorer more than a toyota 4runner and don't have too many problems with it, clearly all the reliability ratings are just subjective opinion and should be ignored.

 
We're not necessarily talking about plastic bars - the Envy is aluminum too for example.  Also, just being out of aluminum doesn't make the system necessarily more reliable (see above).  Electronics reliability determines whether the system keeps going.
 
Quote:

so I don't see the relevance in me giving any more or less credit to PC notebooks. What are you expecting to hear, exactly? "congratulations, PCs are slightly less not-preferable to a macbook pro?"

 
Slightly less preferable to you is a whole lot different than what you said.
 
Quote:

also if you're not addressing hackintoshes then i'm not sure why you're even in here. the basis of most of this thread was paying for a mac vs hackintoshing a PC. i recommend doing a search for "Windows 7 vs OSX" and re-pasting everything you said into that thread.

 
I'd suggest you read the first post - nothing was mentioned about a Hackintosh.  It was a suggestion that came up later.
 
It wasn't mentioned till his SECOND post here:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/496400/why-buy-a-macbook#post_6700373
 
And it was just the fact he'd used one.  On the other hand he compares Windows and OSX a lot more and wondered if there was something he was "missing".
 
Many people here have been outlining Windows vs. OSX in this thread.  Whether a lot of it strayed into Hackintosh territory doesn't change the thread's basic premise.
 
Quote:

Wait so you're just upset I used the word "garbage"? So if I wrote "sub-comparable quality of parts" all will be well in the world? In that case please pretend I did so and stop posting. Didn't realize you were writing 5-paragraph essays simply because of semantics.

 
Except the quality of the actual parts (CPU, RAM, GPU, etc) is mostly the same.
 
To put this to rest - your whole problem with Windows PCs is only the chassis (maybe the motherboard or LCD on some models), did I get this right?
 
 
As for semantics, I'm sure if I called the MBP an overpriced Fisher Price toy you'd just consider it semantics right?  I bet not.  Wording makes a huge difference in what you're saying.

 

[colonelkernel8]

No, blue LED's.

Quote:

What, black?

 
1) It was more of a comment on the Windows environment and it's mixbag of uninstallers, it's a rare occurrence to find an uninstaller that will truly uninstall everything, right down to every registry entry that it wrote when it was installed. I hate playing "hunt down the remaining files and registry entries" every time I decide I want to uninstall a program. So, inevitably, this cruft builds up and causes the inevitable and well documented "Windows Slowdown". 6 months? Maybe an exaggeration, but it's the only OS I know of that more or less requires a reinstall to keep performance up. I know folks who have had the same MacOS install since the day they bought the machine and it still works as new.
 
2) Sure sure, there are exceptions, maybe even superior options, but it doesn't really reflect the market as a whole, which is still stuck in the 2002-era blue LED super-gaming-machine aesthetic quality and a 15 year old design standard. On top of that, I'll be darned if I have seen a laptop case that is comparable to a unibody MBP (no, not even the HP ENVY), which was a big reason I bought a unibody MBP.
 
3) See 2.
 
4) My point here is that in the case of Apple products, the whole computer is designed around the hardware, they aren't components stuck inside a box with a ton of massive fans (or liquid cooling) to compensate for the fact that no actual design work went into getting the heat out of the case. A Mac Pro has five fans, including all the fans on the peripherals.
 

 
This is Lian-Li's most expensive case (at least of what was offered on New Egg).
It has 5 fans on the outside of the case alone (a Mac Pro has one). All blue LED lit (but I am sure they can be turned off). I can't imagine this thing not having about a pound of dust in it in the first 3 weeks of being turned on.
I mean, sort the New Egg cases by best rating and you'll see what I mean...they are all more or less the same.
 
What do they all have in common?
 

 
 
This. Good old standard ATX configuration. This has been around since like, 1995, and not too much innovation has occurred beyond that. 
 
Also, since when did "power user" become synonymous with "I build computers".

     Quote:

I doubt you're a power user - the fact that you don't know of better quality cases lends credence to such an assessment.  Heck, almost everything about your post does.
 
1) Reinstalling every six months?  What ARE you doing to that poor thing?  Sounds like user error.
 
2) Lian-Li, Silverstone, Cooler Master, and some of Antec's higher end line-up.  Seriously, pick one - only you're to blame if you buy a cheap case, it's not due to lack of availability in the least.
 
3)  Once again, see above.
 
4)  Need to explain - if you build the PC you have complete control over this.  Sounds like you're blaming OEM builders for case design.
 
Regarding the pic: once again, you can get different cases.
 
 
Seeing all the above you sound like the exact opposite of a power user.  You seem incapable of keeping Windows running properly, and furthermore have judged PCs on aesthetics in regards to "design".  Very few (if any) OEMs actually design their own cases, which since you don't understand this I believe you haven't built your own which once again leads me to believe you're far from a "power user".

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
No, blue LED's.

lol, I think we all got what you were saying.  A lot of us hate the LED/Neon light invasion.
 
 
Quote:

1) It was more of a comment on the Windows environment and it's mixbag of uninstallers, it's a rare occurrence to find an uninstaller that will truly uninstall everything, right down to every registry entry that it wrote when it was installed. I hate playing "hunt down the remaining files and registry entries" every time I decide I want to uninstall a program. So, inevitably, this cruft builds up and causes the inevitable and well documented "Windows Slowdown". 6 months? Maybe an exaggeration, but it's the only OS I know of that more or less requires a reinstall to keep performance up. I know folks who have had the same MacOS install since the day they bought the machine and it still works as new.

 
I use CCleaner regularly - back with XP I'd kept the same install for two - three years only formatting when I replaced the HDD.  No one understood how I could keep the performance around where it had been out of box.
 
This aspect of Windows is well known and addressed sufficiently IMO today using a 3rd party app.  As for the six months, I sure hope it was an exaggeration, for a while there I was honestly shocked.  There's also other apps like Revo Uninstaller - but I've seen in trash the registry before myself.
 
Quote:

2) Sure sure, there are exceptions, maybe even superior options, but it doesn't really reflect the market as a whole, which is still stuck in the 2002-era blue LED super-gaming-machine aesthetic quality. On top of that, I'll be damned if I have seen a laptop case that is comparable to a unibody MBP (no, not even the HP ENVY), which was a big reason I bought a unibody MBP.

 
Let's not get into this again

 
Quote:

 
3) See 2.
 
4) My point here is that in the case of Apple products, the whole computer is designed around the hardware, they aren't components stuck inside a box with a ton of massive fans (or liquid cooling) to compensate for the fact that no actual design work went into getting the heat out of the case. A Mac Pro has five fans, including all the fans on the peripherals.
 
This is Lian-Li's most expensive case (at least of what was offered on New Egg).
It has 5 fans on the outside of the case alone (a Mac Pro has one). All blue LED lit (but I am sure they can be turned off). I can't imagine this thing not having about a pound of dust in it in the first 3 weeks of being turned on.
I mean, sort the New Egg cases by best rating and you'll see what I mean...they are all more or less the same.
 
What do they all have in common?
 
This. Good old standard ATX configuration. This has been around since like, 1995, and not too much innovation has occurred beyond that.

 
Well, first I'd say this isn't the type of product Lian-LI used to make - however the pound of dust comment.  Lian-Li usually integrates dust filters into about every case I've seen from them.  I haven't looked up the specific case, but I doubt this would be any different.
 
However, I suggest you look at the internals of the case I posted earlier - some of the layouts are dramatically different in ATX cases.  Some have compartmentalized cases much like the Mac Pro.
 
Quote:

I certainly wasn't trying to insult you, so why do you have to attack me ad hominem?

 
I admit, I was a bit rude - judging by your statements though you really seemed adverse to the aspect of higher quality and better chassis which showed lack of experience in the area contrary to your claims.
 
I do apologize though.
 
The Lian-Li I like best would be the V1200 though - it's an example of their better designs IMO:
 

 
That also features a removable motherboard tray, and if I'm not mistaken HDD rails.  The motherboard is also reversed as you can tell, even though it mounts standard ABX.  This allows better graphics card heat dissipation, better controlled CPU dissipation, PSU is isolated and better coupled to the chassis and features a separate duct to move hot air away.

 

[maverickronin]

You're complaining about the number of fans now...I suppose we'll be counting rivets and welds next...
 
I guess you don't overclock either then.  (We're starting to run out of power user-ry things here.)  What you missed is that having more and/or bigger fans allows you to move the same amount of air while the fans spin at slower and quieter speeds.  It's a feature, not a bug.  If you want to run a 50% overclock you either need to move a lot of air or use water cooling.  That's something you can't do on a mac, but I didn't feel the need to mention it since we were talking about laptops.  Overclocking gives PCs the landslide advantage in the price/performance department.  If done properly it's just as reliable a system running at stock speeds.  The only drawbacks are the time needed to dial it in to stability, and the uncertainty of each system's final specs.  It is completely unsuitable for large deployments, but for individuals and small offices it's a viable option if they need the extra grunt.

 

[khaos974]

A MBP never was intended as a desktop replacement, and the trick is that the trackpad on the unibodies is good enough to make me forget about using a mouse.Besides, there's no such machine in the Apple line-up. And as far as build quality (the enclosure, not the electronics) you would need to buy the pro HPs, Dells or Lenovo to match Apple.
 
Quote:

The MBP only has a better build quality, prettier exterior, and better trackpad, compared to the ASUS G73JH, which has a better CPU/GPU/Drive support, and costs much less.  And who really uses a trackpad with a desktop replacement machine?

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I know you were talking about LEDs. Just a joke about Macs being silverish while most PC cases are black.
 
1) It was more of a comment on the Windows environment and it's mixbag of uninstallers, it's a rare occurrence to find an uninstaller that will truly uninstall everything, right down to every registry entry that it wrote when it was installed. I hate playing "hunt down the remaining files and registry entries" every time I decide I want to uninstall a program. So, inevitably, this cruft builds up and causes the inevitable and well documented "Windows Slowdown". 6 months? Maybe an exaggeration, but it's the only OS I know of that more or less requires a reinstall to keep performance up. I know folks who have had the same MacOS install since the day they bought the machine and it still works as new.
 
I have the same WinXP on my computer from 3 years ago and it works as well as it used to. I personally think the slowdown is over-exaggerated and affects slow computers more than fast ones. I'd be happy to be corrected by research, though.
 
4) My point here is that in the case of Apple products, the whole computer is designed around the hardware, they aren't components stuck inside a box with a ton of massive fans (or liquid cooling) to compensate for the fact that no actual design work went into getting the heat out of the case. A Mac Pro has five fans, including all the fans on the peripherals.
 

 
This is Lian-Li's most expensive case (at least of what was offered on New Egg).
It has 5 fans on the outside of the case alone (a Mac Pro has one). All blue LED lit (but I am sure they can be turned off). I can't imagine this thing not having about a pound of dust in it in the first 3 weeks of being turned on.
I mean, sort the New Egg cases by best rating and you'll see what I mean...they are all more or less the same.
 
What do they all have in common?
 

 
 
This. Good old standard ATX configuration. This has been around since like, 1995, and not too much innovation has occurred beyond that. 
 
Why fix something is it's not broken? It's a standard for a reason. No one's going to be happy if every motherboard produced suddenly fit only microATX cases.
 
I don't get your point about fans. Macs have fewer fans. Okay. Do they run as cool with the same applications? Is there a similar volume of air flow? I can't think of one situation where more cooling is not a good thing, short of noise and dust. And the reason dust gets in there is because the air flow is so good. I also don't get your point about PC cases not being designed to get heat out of the case. What, exactly, are those five fans doing?
 
My current computer, which is the first I built from scratch, uses an Antec 900 case that I bought a year before the actual build for $60. Two front fans, one big 200mm fan on top, one fan in back, and a design that places the PSU on the bottom. With the design, air flows from the front two fans across the hard drives, and as it heats up in the case it rises and flows out the top fan and back fan. Keeps the PSU cool for better stability. It's a non-conventional design, with most (older) cases having the PSU up top. The case you have in your picture does the same. There's also other designs that keep the PSU isolated, have fans on the bottom to suck cool air up, side fans, etc. I could put an optional side fan, but no need. Even when the ambient temperature in my room is around 80ish F like it is now, my i5 750 stays at a cool 30C idle with the fan on my heatsink spinning at only 700RPM. The case fans are all on low. Whisper quiet. I can't hear it over the birds outside.
 
My old PC has a no-name case with no fans apart from what's inside. The E6600 CPU ran at 38C idle, 8-10 degrees higher, and got into the 70s under load at stock speeds. The GPU, a 7950GT, was ridiculously hot. My 5850 now runs idle around 40C, and goes up to the 60s under load. Even overclocked to 950/1200 it never went past 85C in a heavy Furmark test, and stayed below 50% fan. The 7950GT sat in the mid-70s at IDLE, and my one and only benchmark of it saw it peak at 128C before I quit and ran for the fire extinguisher just in case.
 
So how is airflow not important, and how are cases not designed for it?

 

[12thgear]

 
Quote:

You're complaining about the number of fans now...I suppose we'll be counting rivets and welds next...
 
I guess you don't overclock either then.  (We're starting to run out of power user-ry things here.)  What you missed is that having more and/or bigger fans allows you to move the same amount of air while the fans spin at slower and quieter speeds.  It's a feature, not a bug.  If you want to run a 50% overclock you either need to move a lot of air or use water cooling.  That's something you can't do on a mac, but I didn't feel the need to mention it since we were talking about laptops.  Overclocking gives PCs the landslide advantage in the price/performance department.  If done properly it's just as reliable a system running at stock speeds.  The only drawbacks are the time needed to dial it in to stability, and the uncertainty of each system's final specs.  It is completely unsuitable for large deployments, but for individuals and small offices it's a viable option if they need the extra grunt.

 
The Lian-Li cases are nice enough. I have the PC-A05NB. All the internal edges are rolled. I like it because it's not too tall, and still accommodates my GTX 275 (just), and after reversing a couple of fans I have a really efficient back to front flow. The GTX 275 is so big it basically bisects the case and separates it into two thermal zones! The rear fan is the intake, blowing across the CPU. The CPU fan then pulls air from the heat sink and exhausts it to the PSU, which is in front on this model. The PSU then exhausts the hot air. This PSU in particular can handle heat very well. The heat sink works well, as my Q6600 2.4GHz runs perfectly at 3.6GHz. Only downside is it purrs like a walrus. 
 
All that said, the case of the Mac Pro still strikes me as being in another class when it comes to build quality. The majority of the case seems to be cast or extruded aluminum, with a heavy steel frame internally. The HP Blackbird struck me as approaching that, but I'd love to see someone with the stones to make something as nice and as overbuilt as something Apple would do, but for system builders. Again, my Lian Li is fine, but it's thin sheet aluminum, and even though it's not, it feels chintzy. And sound tends to resonate through it, so I need to dampen the panels. 
 
Agreed, lots of fans can be a good thing. The Power Mac G5 and Mac Pro models are examples of Apples with lots of fans to make things cool, efficient, and quiet. 

 

[7H3L457H0P3]

Mac's are not cooler than PC's. They just use worse components or the same components underclocked. I could use any GPU (e.g. 5870 or gtx 480) or CPU (e.g. i7 980x or thuban x6) I want on a PC and still get better temperatures using liquid cooling, which you can get from an OEM or do yourself for as little as $1000.00 (including the PC hardware).
 
As far as Steam goes, don't get carried away. I honestly wish there were more games on a Mac, but all the games so far have been ports. Apple doesn't have any native OpenGL games too my knowledge. It would be great if they did; it would mean more games for Linux
 
Just because you have steam doesn't mean you are going to get all the latest and greatest games. So far all of the games have been older games or indie games. Some new games exist but, like I said, they are usually ports. For the most part, any game on steam for Mac has been made by valve (who created steam) (e.g.: Left 4 Dead, CSS, and the Orange Box). These games run on C++ so they are easier to port and these games still run worse on Mac than PC using the same hardware.
 
Anyone who says PC's copy Mac obviously don't realize that Mac straight up copy and pastes their games from PC and uses an emulator to convert from DirectX to OpenGL. Funny thing is Linux is free and has had PC support for years using WINE and Cedega among other programs.
 
 
7H3 L457 H0P3

 

[Hybrys]

lulz.  Your beef is with the ATX standard sizing?  Doesn't the Mac Pro rely on the even more aged AT standard?
 
ATX/Micro-ATX hasn't changed for a reason.  It's efficient, effective, and offers a large amount of variety to the case manufacturer.
 
I'm sorry you find the amount of fans one particular case has to be 'too many' for you.  My old Dell XPS (media server) has two.  And that's only because I opted to get a video card with a fan, so I can push 1080p and not worry about temps.
 
Also, I'm sorry if you don't think I qualify to be a 'power user' in your eyes.  But, I DO understand terms like FSB, the differences between DDR1/2/3/5, the difference between AM2 and AM2+, SSE instruction sets, and the effects of a larger L2/L3 cache.  I also understand undervolting, overclocking, optimal air flow measures, PSU rail stability, the difference between VGA/DVI/DisplayPort/HDMI, how to actually maintain my OS (unlike you, apparently), Linux, Unix, bash, DOS...  Do I need to go on, waving my giant e-peen in the air?
 
Bigger fans are better.  120mm fans move much more air (CFM) at a lower noise rating (dB) than an 80mm, in most cases.
 
BTW, it's all about undervolting, not overclocking.  Use less power, strain the hardware less, and maintain the speed the CPU is rated for.  Unless you really need those extra 400mhz, I recommend going in this direction instead.
 
Also.  WHY HAVE NO PC NAYSAYERS COMMENTED ON THAT FRACTUAL DESIGN R2 CASE I LINKED A WHILE AGO?  Could you not find flaws with it or something?

 

[jenneth]

Quote:

 
All that said, the case of the Mac Pro still strikes me as being in another class when it comes to build quality. The majority of the case seems to be cast or extruded aluminum, with a heavy steel frame internally. The HP Blackbird struck me as approaching that, but I'd love to see someone with the stones to make something as nice and as overbuilt as something Apple would do, but for system builders. Again, my Lian Li is fine, but it's thin sheet aluminum, and even though it's not, it feels chintzy. And sound tends to resonate through it, so I need to dampen the panels.

The case of Mac Pro is exceptionally well designed, but the best workstation I've ever seen is the HP Blackbird 002. Now, if we were talking about a PC case that you can actually buy, I'd say the Zalman GT-1000 is on par with the Mac Pro as well (I have both; one for work, one for home).

 

[colonelkernel8]

I knew the fan comment would draw some flak.
 
I was simply commenting on the fact that the trend seems to be: keep tacking on fans to cool it down. IMO of course.

 

[colonelkernel8]

My beef with ATX is that it was designed back when all you needed was a heatsink on your CPU. This is not the case today.
 
I am not saying people who are computer builders can't be the power users, I am just saying one does not imply the other, I have no doubt that you'd qualify as a power user in my eyes.
 
Moving more air isn't the only way to cool something down, exposing more "heated" surface area to said air is just as important.
 
Last time I checked, getting work done was more important than "maintaining my OS".
 
Quote:

lulz.  Your beef is with the ATX standard sizing?  Doesn't the Mac Pro rely on the even more aged AT standard?
 
ATX/Micro-ATX hasn't changed for a reason.  It's efficient, effective, and offers a large amount of variety to the case manufacturer.
 
I'm sorry you find the amount of fans one particular case has to be 'too many' for you.  My old Dell XPS (media server) has two.  And that's only because I opted to get a video card with a fan, so I can push 1080p and not worry about temps.
 
Also, I'm sorry if you don't think I qualify to be a 'power user' in your eyes.  But, I DO understand terms like FSB, the differences between DDR1/2/3/5, the difference between AM2 and AM2+, SSE instruction sets, and the effects of a larger L2/L3 cache.  I also understand undervolting, overclocking, optimal air flow measures, PSU rail stability, the difference between VGA/DVI/DisplayPort/HDMI, how to actually maintain my OS (unlike you, apparently), Linux, Unix, bash, DOS...  Do I need to go on, waving my giant e-peen in the air?
 
Bigger fans are better.  120mm fans move much more air (CFM) at a lower noise rating (dB) than an 80mm, in most cases.
 
BTW, it's all about undervolting, not overclocking.  Use less power, strain the hardware less, and maintain the speed the CPU is rated for.  Unless you really need those extra 400mhz, I recommend going in this direction instead.
 
Also.  WHY HAVE NO PC NAYSAYERS COMMENTED ON THAT FRACTUAL DESIGN R2 CASE I LINKED A WHILE AGO?  Could you not find flaws with it or something?

 

[Hybrys]

Quote:

My beef with ATX is that it was designed back when all you needed was a heatsink on your CPU. This is not the case today.
 
I am not saying people who are computer builders can't be the power users, I am just saying one does not imply the other, I have no doubt that you'd qualify as a power user in my eyes.
 
Moving more air isn't the only way to cool something down, exposing more "heated" surface area to said air is just as important.
 
Last time I checked, getting work done was more important than "maintaining my OS".

Uhhh... You are aware that ATX and such standards are just the sizing/mounting of the motherboard, not the case size, right?
 
Also, getting work done is more important.  That doesn't mean you can't take the minute out of your day to run CCleaner every 3 months.