[SemiAudiophile]

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Mac's are not cooler than PC's. They just use worse components or the same components underclocked. I could use any GPU (e.g. 5870 or gtx 480) or CPU (e.g. i7 980x or thuban x6) I want on a PC and still get better temperatures using liquid cooling, which you can get from an OEM or do yourself for as little as $1000.00 (including the PC hardware).
 
As far as Steam goes, don't get carried away. I honestly wish there were more games on a Mac, but all the games so far have been ports. Apple doesn't have any native OpenGL games too my knowledge. It would be great if they did; it would mean more games for Linux
 
Just because you have steam doesn't mean you are going to get all the latest and greatest games. So far all of the games have been older games or indie games. Some new games exist but, like I said, they are usually ports. For the most part, any game on steam for Mac has been made by valve (who created steam) (e.g.: Left 4 Dead, CSS, and the Orange Box). These games run on C++ so they are easier to port and these games still run worse on Mac than PC using the same hardware.
 
Anyone who says PC's copy Mac obviously don't realize that Mac straight up copy and pastes their games from PC and uses an emulator to convert from DirectX to OpenGL. Funny thing is Linux is free and has had PC support for years using WINE and Cedega among other programs.
 
 
7H3 L457 H0P3

I'm not sure if you were directing this post at me or speaking in general. But the point of my earlier post was that the particular HP model I had was poorly designed, therefore causing the overheating issues. Not that "macs are cooler than pcs". 
 
I wasn't getting carried away with Steam. I've also read their website and noticed that they only have their most popular games available. To be honest, I don't really see Macs competing with PC's in the gaming department. But who knows? Anything is possible. 
 
On a side note: I did try out CSS on the mbp last night. I was able to average 50-60 fps with everything set on low. Which ain't bad and was still playable. But it was only as good as my 7yr old machine running xp.

 

[7H3L457H0P3]

 
 
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On a side note: I did try out CSS on the mbp last night. I was able to average 50-60 fps with everything set on low. Which ain't bad and was still playable. But it was only as good as my 7yr old machine running xp.

 
That's all you really need honestly. Our eyes operate at 60 Hz as I understand it; there have been studies done that show PC gamers with high-end rigs used to excessive frames actually adapt so that they react faster and see more fps. Not sure how substantial it is, but I found it interesting. Fast perception, good reflexes, just no body to wield it most of my friends who are gamers are actually in pretty good shape, but still good at games.
 
And you really don't need all the eye candy if you can't handle it. It's nice if you can, but framerate is more important in twitch based games. I can still play CSS maxed out at native res and get 100+ frames on my school laptop though. How old is your MBP? does it have a 9400m, 9600 gt. At those fps it sounds like you are running an x3100 or maybe Mac's are optimized worst than I gave them credit for.
 
Honestly I'm trying to cut back on games. I still play bf2142, but unless something better comes out I might just give up on gaming. I have hope through. Medal of honor was fun back on my ps1 so I might buy it if its any good. I guess you can call me a "casual hardcore-gamer" if that means anything. When I play I'm all in, but when I'm done I'm good for a day or two unless I have friends online.
 
 
7H3 L457 H0P3

 

[ayz]

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To put this to rest - your whole problem with Windows PCs is only the chassis (maybe the motherboard or LCD on some models), did I get this right?
 

Bingo. My desktop pc is built by me and runs windows 7. I don't have any issues with windows. I went with a macbook pro for laptops solely because i didn't like any of my other options. Dell is crap, Sony isn't much better and is overpriced, lenovo looks like a brick and the batteries die fast (had a T61 and that battery got 30 minutes after about a year), and i don't like lenovo's extended life batteries that stick out 2-3 inches. HP Envy came out to about the same as an MBP, so i got the MBP with free printer and ipod touch.

 

[colonelkernel8]

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Uhhh... You are aware that ATX and such standards are just the sizing/mounting of the motherboard, not the case size, right?
 
Also, getting work done is more important.  That doesn't mean you can't take the minute out of your day to run CCleaner every 3 months.

Are you aware that the ATX standard also dictates the location of the processor, RAM, expansion slots and all power connectors on the board? As well as the power rails available on the board? The second point is not really important, but the ATX standard goes beyond just the dimensions of the board and the mounting holes.
 
The placement of these components is important, because all of them (in their current iterations) produce considerable heat. I don't know if you remember "BTX" at all, but it was touted as a replacement to ATX about 5 years ago, and it was one of the first to take into account these facts and the board was designed to be more conducive to good heat transfer. It unfortunately never caught on, but elements of it can be seen in the Mac Pro.
 
As a side note, I ran CCleaner nearly every day on my Windows 7 machine. It rarely if ever picked up anything other than invalid default icon registry entries and default launch program entries. It also emptied my temp folder!

 

[SemiAudiophile]

Quote:

 
 
 
That's all you really need honestly. Our eyes operate at 60 Hz as I understand it; there have been studies done that show PC gamers with high-end rigs used to excessive frames actually adapt so that they react faster and see more fps. Not sure how substantial it is, but I found it interesting. Fast perception, good reflexes, just no body to wield it most of my friends who are gamers are actually in pretty good shape, but still good at games.
 
And you really don't need all the eye candy if you can't handle it. It's nice if you can, but framerate is more important in twitch based games. I can still play CSS maxed out at native res and get 100+ frames on my school laptop though. How old is your MBP? does it have a 9400m, 9600 gt. At those fps it sounds like you are running an x3100 or maybe Mac's are optimized worst than I gave them credit for.
 
Honestly I'm trying to cut back on games. I still play bf2142, but unless something better comes out I might just give up on gaming. I have hope through. Medal of honor was fun back on my ps1 so I might buy it if its any good. I guess you can call me a "casual hardcore-gamer" if that means anything. When I play I'm all in, but when I'm done I'm good for a day or two unless I have friends online.
 
 
7H3 L457 H0P3

 
My mbp is the latest 2010 13" base model. I have no idea whats in it except for what I can tell you based on their website and under system information. Video card is the "NVIDIA GeForce 320M". I'm only a casual gamer myself. I used to play CS back in 1.6 days and was off and on for a few years. I do most of my gaming on the PS3 now because its just more convenient and I don't feel like spending extra cash on building another computer when I already have one that's working. 
 

 

[7H3L457H0P3]

 
 
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My mbp is the latest 2010 13" base model. I have no idea whats in it except for what I can tell you based on their website and under system information. Video card is the "NVIDIA GeForce 320M". I'm only a casual gamer myself. I used to play CS back in 1.6 days and was off and on for a few years. I do most of my gaming on the PS3 now because its just more convenient and I don't feel like spending extra cash on building another computer when I already have one that's working. 

 
Weird. Something tells me you are running it at higher settings than you think. Source games usually detect your hardware and set settings accordingly. I have an Xbox 360 for games as well, but a mouse and keyboard gives me way more control over gameplay. For example if you play halo 2 PC which has full support for the xbox 360 controller (+ auto-aim *sigh*) and I use my mouse (w/o auto-aim) I will still get a shot off faster and more accurate. I prefer team SWAT btw so single-shot kills.
 
Yeah a 320m is fine for light gaming as long as you boot-camp windows or are satisfied with limited game selection. I'm in the process of putting win 95 games on a bootable flash drive (kubuntu 10.04). Just for laughs.
 
The HP Envy support a 5830 now if I remember correctly. Just a little more power than your MBP gt 330 (*sarcasm* more like 10 fold). Heating is an issue though. I personally like small laptops with ULV's, I currently like the ul80jc by ASUS. It would make a nice Linux/Windows boot.
 
By the way, for your reference (I use it for dimensions on builds):

 
 
7H3 L457 H0P3

 

[Hybrys]

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Are you aware that the ATX standard also dictates the location of the processor, RAM, expansion slots and all power connectors on the board? As well as the power rails available on the board? The second point is not really important, but the ATX standard goes beyond just the dimensions of the board and the mounting holes.
 
The placement of these components is important, because all of them (in their current iterations) produce considerable heat. I don't know if you remember "BTX" at all, but it was touted as a replacement to ATX about 5 years ago, and it was one of the first to take into account these facts and the board was designed to be more conducive to good heat transfer. It unfortunately never caught on, but elements of it can be seen in the Mac Pro.
 
As a side note, I ran CCleaner nearly every day on my Windows 7 machine. It rarely if ever picked up anything other than invalid default icon registry entries and default launch program entries. It also emptied my temp folder!

It only dictates those things in THEORY.  This is because to fit in that size most efficiently, that's the outline that you take.  The Mac Pro doesn't do this much better, if that's what you're trying to imply.
 
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My mbp is the latest 2010 13" base model. I have no idea whats in it except for what I can tell you based on their website and under system information. Video card is the "NVIDIA GeForce 320M". I'm only a casual gamer myself. I used to play CS back in 1.6 days and was off and on for a few years. I do most of my gaming on the PS3 now because its just more convenient and I don't feel like spending extra cash on building another computer when I already have one that's working. 
 

And yet you have no problem spending the extra cash to get the MBP over something like a good i5 + 5770 combo for ~$1200?

 

[SemiAudiophile]

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And yet you have no problem spending the extra cash to get the MBP over something like a good i5 + 5770 combo for ~$1200?

 
Yup, because I didn't need another desktop and was in the market for another laptop. The only laptop that caught my eye was the Macbook Pro; they've always intrigued me. I demo'd them a few times at the apple store and liked the experience. I was never planning on gaming, only for simple stuff like web, email, word document, etc. I still haven't regretted my purchase and am very happy with it. 
 

 

[colonelkernel8]

Hybrys, how exactly did you go from being simply curious about Mac's to be a full-fledged anti-Mac crusader with some sort of agenda in the course of a single thread?

 

[colonelkernel8]

Not quite, here is the standard. I have yet to see a motherboard that claims to be ATX deviate from this. 
 
http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5Catx2_2.pdf
 
I can't quite make out what your second sentence is trying to say, typo?
 
Would you care to provide backing evidence to your final point? I'd like to know your thoughts on BTX as well.
 
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It only dictates those things in THEORY.  This is because to fit in that size most efficiently, that's the outline that you take.  The Mac Pro doesn't do this much better, if that's what you're trying to imply.
 
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And yet you have no problem spending the extra cash to get the MBP over something like a good i5 + 5770 combo for ~$1200?

 

[Currawong]

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An interesting note to your interesting note.  I've down a 'teardown and rebuild' of both a Gateway (P-7805u) and a Macbook (Late 2007), and they were both very similar in both design and quality.  The Macbook was a more painful endeavor to take apart and rebuild, though.  Your comment also suggests that they're just gouging you more, by it being cheaper to produce in fewer pieces.  (Which is theoretically true.)
 
Remember what has been said.  You can't compare low-end PCs to high-end prices.  The higher-level Sony machines are actually decent, although I agree with you on the poor construction and configuration of their mid/low end machines.  The same goes with Acer, their low end machines are terrible, but I've had nothing but success with their high end machines.

The 2007 machines probably had their internals designed by the same people in Hon Hai.  The fewer parts are for a very good reason: Apple has long had trouble (as have all manufacturers) with authorised repair agents screwing things up (or outright defrauding Apple, resulting in the take down of a very old and well-known company, and saw the directors of Australia's largest independent Apple reseller fired and sued) so the simpler they are designed, the less likely Apple will have to deal with problems caused by authorised idiots.

 

[ayz]

if you run linux on a regular basis you are clearly not the crowd apple or really anyone else is targeting with their laptops

 

[Hybrys]

Quote:

Hybrys, how exactly did you go from being simply curious about Mac's to be a full-fledged anti-Mac crusader with some sort of agenda in the course of a single thread?

Well, I'm not even really Anti-Mac.  I just think their products are overpriced, and am annoyed with the general myths about Macs.  (IE: Better hardware, better security, innovating while MS is copying).  I like Macs for what they do well, or else I wouldn't even be considering a Hackintosh-specific build.  My only agenda is to dispell Mac myths.  If you like the OS and build quality, then all for you.  If you just think PCs are ugly, I'm going to offer another opinion.  If you think they're more secure due to better coding, have 'higher quality' hardware, or innovate much more than everyone else... Well, then you should be proven wrong.
 
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Not quite, here is the standard. I have yet to see a motherboard that claims to be ATX deviate from this. 
 
http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5Catx2_2.pdf
 
I can't quite make out what your second sentence is trying to say, typo?
 
Would you care to provide backing evidence to your final point? I'd like to know your thoughts on BTX as well.

There was a DFI back in the AMD golden age (IE: Athlon 64 era) that rotated the ram slots, and still mounted ATX.  I'll get back to you with an example later, but feel free to look now at LGA771 mobos, and Socket A mobos, and see if any deviate from the 'processor/ram/NB/SB' alignment common to ATX motherboards.  There are also cases that mount ATX backwards (like the common Intel BTX implementation) but they do little to help.
 
I like the idea of BTX, but changing the form factor isn't what's needed.  We need to develop a more efficient electronic path (something BTX was KIND OF doing) instead of a better thermal path, seeing as we're on our way to smaller and smaller chips with less and less thermal requirements.
 
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The 2007 machines probably had their internals designed by the same people in Hon Hai.  The fewer parts are for a very good reason: Apple has long had trouble (as have all manufacturers) with authorised repair agents screwing things up (or outright defrauding Apple, resulting in the take down of a very old and well-known company, and saw the directors of Australia's largest independent Apple reseller fired and sued) so the simpler they are designed, the less likely Apple will have to deal with problems caused by authorised idiots.

Right, but all manufacturers are moving towards that, for example.  Apple can take the extra step, integrating their AirPort wireless cards, while others have to stick to cards, but really, there isn't much else different.
 
Ex: http://www.itechnews.net/2008/07/04/acer-aspire-one-unboxed-and-disassembled/
 
I see... 4 parts?  Even the fan/heatsink is attached.  (Motherboard, daughter card, RAM module, wifi card.)
 
http://forum.notebookreview.com/gateway-emachines/382408-gateway-fx-disassembly-guide-covers-all-17in-fx-notebooks.html
 
I see 8 parts.  2x Heatsink, fan, motherboard, 2x RAM modules, DVD drive, and wifi card.

 

[maverickronin]

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There was a DFI back in the AMD golden age (IE: Athlon 64 era) that rotated the ram slots, and still mounted ATX.  I'll get back to you with an example later, but feel free to look now at LGA771 mobos, and Socket A mobos, and see if any deviate from the 'processor/ram/NB/SB' alignment common to ATX motherboards.  There are also cases that mount ATX backwards (like the common Intel BTX implementation) but they do little to help.

I had that one of those!  It was great.  Got a almost a 40% overclock on my Athlon 64 XII 3800 with it.  Lasted till the chipset fan died and I kept putting off replacing it on the grounds that I was gaming with it any more, it shouldn't be stressed, and the temps looked ok.  Then it just died one day...  Live and learn I guess.

 

[Shike]

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As a side note, I ran CCleaner nearly every day on my Windows 7 machine. It rarely if ever picked up anything other than invalid default icon registry entries and default launch program entries. It also emptied my temp folder!

I wouldn't expect it to find an overwhelming amount of registry entries if you were doing it every day.  The first time and after MAJOR program uninstalls (certain drivers and deeply integrated apps) is when you would see anything substantial.  Even then, I'd hope uninstallers have also improved much over the years so registry buildup doesn't happen as much.  
 
On the other hand, if it was still slowing down there were other issues.  What A/V suite and malware sweeps were you using?  What browser?  Were you keeping track of your HDD health?  Did you run actual benchmarks to show loss of performance, or could it have been perceived (we tend to adjust to computer's speed after time, so it could have just seemed slower).  Did you check for memory leaks to see if somethings footprint was disproportional to usage?
 
These are all important factors when claiming that your install started slowing down to the point of needing a format.  Without knowing these it's hard to really say your formats were justified honestly.