[7H3L457H0P3]

I'm impressed Hybrys, you know your stuff. How about the shipping? I'm kind of curious what the cheapest possible functional build would be using used/open box/combo's including tax + shipping. If anyone wants to see the hardware edge of PC's suggest a price and purpose of the PC and I'll see what I can throw together. For example, I was looking at a gaming build under $1000 a few weeks back, this is what I came up with:
 
 

Qty.	Product Description	Savings	Total Price
1	MSI NF750-G55 ATX AMD Motherboard Item #:N82E16813130235 Return Policy: Standard Return Policy		$99.99
1	CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W Compatible with Core i7 Power Supply Item #:N82E16817139005 Return Policy: Standard Return Policy	-$30.00 Instant $10.00 Mail-in Rebate Card	$119.99 $89.99
1	COOLER MASTER HAF 922 RC-922M-KKN1-GP Black Computer Case Item #:N82E16811119197 Return Policy: Standard Return Policy	-$20.00 Instant	$109.98 $89.98
1	AMD Phenom II X6 1055T 2.8GHz Socket AM3 125W Six-Core Desktop Processor Item #:N82E16819103851 Return Policy: CPU Replacement Only Return Policy	-$5.00 Instant	$204.99 $199.99
1	G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Desktop Memory Item #:N82E16820231276 Return Policy: Memory Standard Return Policy		$109.99
1	Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 500GB 3.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive Item #:N82E16822148395 Return Policy: Standard Return Policy	-$5.00 Instant	$59.99 $54.99
1	ASUS 24X DVD Burner - Bulk Black SATA Model DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS Item #:N82E16827135204 Return Policy: Standard Return Policy	-$3.00 Instant	$25.99 $22.99
2	ASUS CuCore Series Radeon HD 5770 EAH5770 CuCore/2DI/1GD5 Video Card Item #:N82E16814121363 Return Policy: Limited Replacement Only Return Policy	-$10.00 Instant $20.00 Mail-in Rebate Card	$335.98 $315.98
Grand Total:	$983.90

If you wanted to throw in some peripherals to make a full PC and compare it to the best iMac ($2000; btw its 4850 is mobile lol).
 
 

Qty.	Product Description	Savings	Total Price
1	Logitech Performance Black 2.4 GHz Wireless Laser Mouse MX Item #:N82E16826104321 Return Policy: Standard Return Policy	-$20.00 Instant $25.00 Mail-in Rebate	$99.99 $79.99
3	ASUS VH242H Black 23.6" 5ms HDMI Full 1080P Widescreen LCD w/Speakers Item #:N82E16824236052 Return Policy: Monitor Standard Return Policy	-$30.00 Instant $10.00 Mail-in Rebate Card	$689.97 $599.97
1	Logitech Black Wired Gaming Keyboard Item #:N82E16823126053 Return Policy: Standard Return Policy	-$23.00 Instant	$199.99 $176.99
Grand Total:	$856.95

Yes I could get a better monitor than the iMac's if I wanted, but I prefer screen space and ATI eyefinity pwns.
 
 
7H3 L457 H0P3

 

[Adda]

Quote:

Xeons aren't cost effective, and often need special mobos that might not come in mini-ITX or micro-ATX.  That's the only problem.

Those Xeons use socket 1156, so they should work in any mobo with that socket, it would be strange if they didn't.
They are expensive yes, but the low TDP makes them worth it in my opinion.
 
Edit: I'll have to take that back, strange that they chose the 1156 for these processors, when they only run on mobos with certain chipsets.

 

[Hero Kid]

Why have Adda, 7H3 L457 H0P3 and arguably Hybrys turned this topic into a PC building discussion?
I don't mean to put anyone's nose out of join but it seems irrelevant to me in this thread.
 
Normally I wouldn't say anything but seeing every single topic based around Macs ends up in a PC/Mac debate which annoys me, then I continue to read and end up reading a discussing regarding building computers... 

 

[Hybrys]

Quote:

Why have Adda, 7H3 L457 H0P3 and arguably Hybrys turned this topic into a PC building discussion?
I don't mean to put anyone's nose out of join but it seems irrelevant to me in this thread.
 
Normally I wouldn't say anything but seeing every single topic based around Macs ends up in a PC/Mac debate which annoys me, then I continue to read and end up reading a discussing regarding building computers... 

A conclusion has been reached and the topic is thusly shifting.
 
Conclusion: People buy Macs for OSX and build quality mostly, but they aren't worth it to a power user that can employ an efficient Hackintosh/X86 setup.  People also believe falsely that they are more secure (an arguable point), and/or have better hardware.
 
@7H3 L457 H0P3
 
I'll throw something together for the $1000 price range, and $800 supplemental package tomorrow.  For gaming, you want equal CPU and GPU to an extent... But when you get to quad cores, and threaded games, GPU should outweigh the CPU.  Especially when including AA, HDR, and etc.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

 
One quick note and I'll leave you to your build thread. this....
Quote:

You've fallen for the marketing ploy, instead of getting by with smart computing.  Maybe you're just not that good with computers...
 

is neither falling for a marketing ploy or "not being that smart." It is what some here have been saying all along. The thing that separates Mac users from the guys building virtual PCs in this thread is that we have absolutely no interest in such things. We don't want to learn "smart computing," whatever that is, install firewalls, de-frag hard drives, download drivers, etc, etc...all the things that are part and parcel of PC computing. I completely understand that to the guy who can build a Hackintosh in his head, this seems silly, but it's not. We're not interested and don't want to be bothered. We just want to surf the internet, record music, write blogs, design web sites, etc, etc, without giving the tool we do it with any thought beyond "Damn! That was cool!". To us - and I understand this is an exaggeration - working with a PC is like re-configuring, re-booting and protecting your toaster every time you want a bagel.
 
The premium seems a small price to pay, and that's why many of us pay it. We're not dumb. But we don't want to design hammers; we want to drive nails. 
 
P

 

[Hybrys]

I can appreciate that, to an extent.  The problem is that a lot of people overemphasis security risks and maintenance needs of PCs.  Hell, Win7 will work on 90% of computers now, right out of the box, with no defragging, installing protection, installing drivers, etc.  Just turn on and go, like OSX.
 
Smart computing is just that.  Don't download things if you're unsure of what they are.  Don't click flashy ads/popups.  Don't open unsolicited attachments.  These are guidelines of ALL computers, not just PCs, and you should learn it regardless of OS.  If not, a time will come where 'ITW' OSX viruses will run rampant.
 
A third point is, with a little research (~4 hours.) you can find a computer from a retailer that would work with OSX, barring no feature.  This would be a Hackintosh, and it's really not THAT hard, if you cherry-pick your computer.  (Harder to do on a laptop, though.)  Four hours to save you $300-1500.  It's time well spent.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

 

It's pretty clear that the people who don't like the idea of buying a Mac are focussed on the specifications.  The people who buy Macs are focussed on what they can DO with the computer.  If you go into an Apple Store (at least where I live) they have workshops showing people what you can DO with the software.  They don't go into hardware specs.  That is why I understand people who hate the iPad.  It's a computer that acts as a device as simply as your toaster, and allows the ordinary person the ability to DO things without having to worry about the hardware.

 

This feels debatable and unjustified.  Yes, Macs come with more multimedia software out of the box (lolMicrosoftgotsuedforthatintheEU), but that doesn't mean that it can't do those things, and rather easily.

 

Windows is versatile, but makes you work for it.  Yes, not the best for the 'consumer' but, you could spend $1000 less, and get $1000 in classes and be better off, imo.

 

I hated the iPad because they made it so closed off.  Can't do USB-host, doesn't have a real OS, and you have to circumvent Apple's OS to do anything fun with it.  This obsession with the iPhone OS has to stop, or you're going to see it on laptops and desktops soon.  A closed OS, worse for everything, but few critically think about it.

 

The Android vs. iPhone thing is a great example of this: The hardcore geeks love that it's open source, but to take a screenshot you have to go through a load of convoluted crap of enabling USB access then installing third party software.  On an iPhone you just press the home and power buttons at the same time. 

 

That's one sightly underhanded example.  Android has it's problems but it's a more powerful platform than the locked-down iPhone.  Just because one rarely used function isn't as accessible YET, doesn't mean it never will be, or it's not as easy to use.

 
Addressing your bolt points above:

1. Microsoft's troubles in the EU had to do with deliberately forcing out competition. Apple bundling iLife is completely different.  There IS no competition, Apple came up with the apps from scratch, more or less.
 
2. I agree, this is what I'm saying: Users such as yourself are focussed on the specifications, and "work[ing] for it" as you put it. I don't agree you'd be better off taking classes to use software.  Apple's software is designed so it's obvious how you use it.  The same as the iPad's "You already know how to use it" commercial.
 
3. My point about Android is, the focus is different.  iOS is focussed on making sure the user experience, even if they have no experience, is excellent.  To do that, everything has to be very tightly integrated, consistent and carefully managed. I don't expect hacker types to like this at all.  I don't expect you to like it either.  Maybe one day, when you're much older and are over all this stuff, you'll appreciate things that "just work". Not dismissing you or your arguments in any way, I agree with them, mostly, though some of your info is wrong.
 
As for security, the exploits in Mac OS X in the last couple of years have all been through Safari.  With Windows, IE has been the primary security hole, but other glaring ones have resulted in millions of machines infected with viruses and trojans.  In Mac OS X, vulnerabilities other than those requiring a maliciously crafted web site, require the user to install the infected software manually.

 
Quote:

 
The thing that separates Mac users from the guys building virtual PCs in this thread is that we have absolutely no interest in such things. We don't want to learn "smart computing," whatever that is, install firewalls, de-frag hard drives, download drivers, etc, etc...all the things that are part and parcel of PC computing. I completely understand that to the guy who can build a Hackintosh in his head, this seems silly, but it's not. We're not interested and don't want to be bothered. We just want to surf the internet, record music, write blogs, design web sites, etc, etc, without giving the tool we do it with any thought beyond "Damn! That was cool!". To us - and I understand this is an exaggeration - working with a PC is like re-configuring, re-booting and protecting your toaster every time you want a bagel.

 

The premium seems a small price to pay, and that's why many of us pay it. We're not dumb. But we don't want to design hammers; we want to drive nails. 

This is exactly it.  There is no argument overall here, it's just that Hybrys can't comprehend people who don't think the way he does about computing.  Nothing wrong with that, quite normal actually.  I know that for myself, I comprehend both sides of the (non-)argument as they are simply different approaches and personal preferences.  There is no one "best" choice, except for the individual. 

 

[Hero Kid]

Phelonious Ponk and Currawong both get a cookie from me. You have both summed up exactly what I could never find the words to say.
This makes me very very happy.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Quote:

I can appreciate that, to an extent.  The problem is that a lot of people overemphasis security risks and maintenance needs of PCs.  Hell, Win7 will work on 90% of computers now, right out of the box, with no defragging, installing protection, installing drivers, etc.  Just turn on and go, like OSX.
 
Smart computing is just that.  Don't download things if you're unsure of what they are.  Don't click flashy ads/popups.  Don't open unsolicited attachments.  These are guidelines of ALL computers, not just PCs, and you should learn it regardless of OS.  If not, a time will come where 'ITW' OSX viruses will run rampant.
 
A third point is, with a little research (~4 hours.) you can find a computer from a retailer that would work with OSX, barring no feature.  This would be a Hackintosh, and it's really not THAT hard, if you cherry-pick your computer.  (Harder to do on a laptop, though.)  Four hours to save you $300-1500.  It's time well spent.

I'm sure Windows 7 is better than XP (never touched Vista). I'm sure Chevys are better than they used to be too, but that Monte Carlo my ex wife owned, the one that had to have the dash pulled out to grease the squeaky speedometer cable? It left a bad taste in my mouth and I won't be buying another Chevy. Life's too short to waste on bad design.
 
Smarter computing is the OS that blocks ads/junkmail in the first place without additional plug-ins or apps, and the only pop up is the little dialog box that pops up whenever anything wants space on your hard drive, requiring your password approval before it is let in. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks Microsoft left this particular Window open so they could get in themselves.
 
I wouldn't know what to research to find a Hackintosh, but it doesn't sound like a bad idea. Wish I had thought of that when my wife's proprietary work program was insisting Windows. It would be great to be able to run both platforms on that machine.
 
P

 

[7H3L457H0P3]

Quote:

A conclusion has been reached and the topic is thusly shifting.

 
I got one. Conclusion: Don't buy a Mac, the Cake is a Lie. I can see Steve Jobs singing "I'm still alive," quick put a portal down and get out of Apple.
 
Quote:

working with a PC is like re-configuring, re-booting and protecting your toaster every time you want a bagel.

 
More like a toaster that if you take care of it can make you a chocolate chip muffin versus just toast and a bagel. PC's aren't severely limited by their OS.
 
Quote:

The premium seems a small price to pay, and that's why many of us pay it. We're not dumb. But we don't want to design hammers; we want to drive nails. 

 
That's nice. You don't have to design, but if you know exactly what you want from your PC there are way more choices available online. Or you could build. Building a PC is like customizing a Lamborghini for the price of a Toyota the performance is amazing but you do take a risk going 150 mpg above the speed limit, which is set by Steve Jobs; where getting a Mac is like buying a Toyota for the price of a Lamborghini. But it's ok, It still gets me from A to B and Toyota's have great reliability and do exactly what you want them to do. Just don't try to go too fast, you might break something. See where I'm going with this...
 
Quote:

 We're not interested and don't want to be bothered. We just want to surf the internet, record music, write blogs, design web sites, etc, etc, without giving the tool we do it with any thought 

 
By the way, use the internet if you don't know what your doing ask around or ask for help online. Building a Hackintosh isn't hard and I guarantee you could find someone somewhere willing to help you with a build. It's like building Lego's, but the end product is much more rewarding.
 
 
7H3 L457 H0P3

 

[Sweetmate]

I've used PCs and Macs for the past 14 years for work and play, I've built cheap, medium and high end PCs from scratch (from Windows 98 through to Windows 7) and i've used Apple desktops and laptops. It's a case of whatever you want to do with your computer should define which products you use.
 
Right now, I can make enough money with my Mac Pro to justify its cost, as I have absolutely no downtime with it. Not that I couldn't have achieved the same end result with a PC, but that I can do it with much more ease, less complication and much less stress with OS X. I also get a certain amount of enjoyment out of using OS X and many of its applications, something I feel very rarely when using Windows. Now people can argue that this is irrational, but I think that the user experience, often determined by the visual aesthetics of an interface is what gives people that emotional response from using computer hardware and software.
 
You could make an analogy to cars, Person A who likes getting under the hood of a cheaper japanese sports car and tinkering with it and modifying it until it will whoop a ferrari off the line, but Person B, the driver of that ferrari may prefer to drive that (slower) ferrari due to the way it smells, and the sound it makes and the feel of its dashboard under his fingers. Person A and person B are both happy with their products, they just get that enjoyment in different ways.
 
I no longer run any PCs (there was a time when i ran 3 or 4), i boot camp into W7 and I also have VMs of XP and W7 for testing. With previous PCs I have spent alot of time building, swapping components, updating bioses/drivers and reinstalling OS's, which I no longer have the desire or time to do. My current OS X install dates back to 2006. I installed OS X 10.4 Tiger on a Powerbook G4, since then I have upgraded that to 10.5 Leopard, migrated that over to a Mac Pro (so i went from PPC to Intel) and since upgraded to 10.6. I have not clean installed for 4 years, the machine runs superbly and I have had 1 kernel panic in those 4 years (ironically due to a Vista VM in VMware). There is no way you could install XP, upgrade that to Vista and then upgrade that to W7 after 4 years of heavy use and expect it to be running well. And there is no way you could add a change of hardware to that let alone a change of architecture and have it run at all.
 
This is the fundamental reason I use OS X. Not because I am a fashion victim, but because I like using my computer to make a living, and anything that helps me do that more easily and with some enjoyment is worth it for me.

 

[12thgear]

 
Quote:

 
I got one. Conclusion: Don't buy a Mac, the Cake is a Lie. I can see Steve Jobs singing "I'm still alive," quick put a portal down and get out of Apple.

 
Since Steam for Mac OS X came out, we get that joke now! 

 Although, if you sat through the credits, there was a cake, so take that for what it's worth. 
 
Also, I don't envision SJ as much of a singer. I think he has assistants for that. 

 

[Hybrys]

@Currawong  No quoted response for you, since I have no problems with what you're saying, or have nothing to say that hasn't been said.  (Except my other responses...)
 
Quote:

I'm sure Windows 7 is better than XP (never touched Vista). I'm sure Chevys are better than they used to be too, but that Monte Carlo my ex wife owned, the one that had to have the dash pulled out to grease the squeaky speedometer cable? It left a bad taste in my mouth and I won't be buying another Chevy. Life's too short to waste on bad design.
 
Life's too short to waste holding grudges.  My father had a Chevy that had to have the transmission replaced three times.  And yet, the best thing I could buy for my time here was a Chevy Impala.  Four door, good efficiency, well known, and parts are easy to get.  Up from 80k to 220k kms so far, with no problems.  In the end, use what's best.  That's the point of this thread; trying not to hold grudges and just seeing what's best.
 
Smarter computing is the OS that blocks ads/junkmail in the first place without additional plug-ins or apps, and the only pop up is the little dialog box that pops up whenever anything wants space on your hard drive, requiring your password approval before it is let in. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks Microsoft left this particular Window open so they could get in themselves.
 
So, Win7.  And I usually disable UAC, because I know every application/service/process on my computer, but I actually suggest others to do it themselves.  As long as you don't initiate the attack against yourself, it works out great.  Also, I find it amusing you only have to apply your password IF you have a password, when you install programs.  I hope OSX gets someone intelligent enough to penetrate via Safari, and just sideload the process, instead of 'installing'.
 
I wouldn't know what to research to find a Hackintosh, but it doesn't sound like a bad idea. Wish I had thought of that when my wife's proprietary work program was insisting Windows. It would be great to be able to run both platforms on that machine.
 
P
 
That's exactly what you should've researched, what to find.  >_>  My first Hackintosh google search was 'OSX on PC'.  From that, you get the X86 hardware compatibility database.  She still might be able to dual boot it with OSX.  Just have to have an Intel GMA4500 or nVidia video card, along with an Intel processor, and one of the more common chipsets.

 
Quote:

I've used PCs and Macs for the past 14 years for work and play, I've built cheap, medium and high end PCs from scratch (from Windows 98 through to Windows 7) and i've used Apple desktops and laptops. It's a case of whatever you want to do with your computer should define which products you use.
 
Right now, I can make enough money with my Mac Pro to justify its cost, as I have absolutely no downtime with it. Not that I couldn't have achieved the same end result with a PC, but that I can do it with much more ease, less complication and much less stress with OS X. I also get a certain amount of enjoyment out of using OS X and many of its applications, something I feel very rarely when using Windows. Now people can argue that this is irrational, but I think that the user experience, often determined by the visual aesthetics of an interface is what gives people that emotional response from using computer hardware and software.
 
You could make an analogy to cars, Person A who likes getting under the hood of a cheaper japanese sports car and tinkering with it and modifying it until it will whoop a ferrari off the line, but Person B, the driver of that ferrari may prefer to drive that (slower) ferrari due to the way it smells, and the sound it makes and the feel of its dashboard under his fingers. Person A and person B are both happy with their products, they just get that enjoyment in different ways.
 
I no longer run any PCs (there was a time when i ran 3 or 4), i boot camp into W7 and I also have VMs of XP and W7 for testing. With previous PCs I have spent alot of time building, swapping components, updating bioses/drivers and reinstalling OS's, which I no longer have the desire or time to do. My current OS X install dates back to 2006. I installed OS X 10.4 Tiger on a Powerbook G4, since then I have upgraded that to 10.5 Leopard, migrated that over to a Mac Pro (so i went from PPC to Intel) and since upgraded to 10.6. I have not clean installed for 4 years, the machine runs superbly and I have had 1 kernel panic in those 4 years (ironically due to a Vista VM in VMware). There is no way you could install XP, upgrade that to Vista and then upgrade that to W7 after 4 years of heavy use and expect it to be running well. And there is no way you could add a change of hardware to that let alone a change of architecture and have it run at all.
 
This is the fundamental reason I use OS X. Not because I am a fashion victim, but because I like using my computer to make a living, and anything that helps me do that more easily and with some enjoyment is worth it for me.
 
 

So your entire arguement is because of the OS.  But you still bought a Mac Pro.  And claim to have made your own computers, and had no problem with that...
 
Why didn't you make a Hackintosh desktop?  Better than the Mac Pro, cheaper, and nicer looking. (I prefer a sleek black look to the 'HI GUYS I'M A SERVER' look of the Mac Pro.)
 
It's actually LAUGHABLE that the Mac Pro comes with a GT 120.
 
Apple Mac Pro: 2.66 Xeon processor, 6GB of RAM, GT 120, DVD burner, 1TB 7200RPM drive, ugly server case.
 
$3200 CAD
 
Mac Pro Clone:  2.66 Xeon processor, 6GB of RAM, GT 285, Lightscribe DVD burner, 1TB WD Black HDD, Sleek case + 650W power supply.  Assembly included.  Fully OSX compatible, out of the box.
 
$1700 CAD + $35 for OSX.
 
http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=51357
http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=38342
http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=34802&promoid=1016
http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=31000&promoid=1016
http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=36263&promoid=1016
http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=39443
http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=42349&promoid=1016
http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=51277
+ Assembly ($50)
 
BTW, that took me two hours of research.

 

[grokit]

>

 

[grokit]

Quote:
  

Originally Posted by 7H3L457H0P3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
You don't have to design, but if you know exactly what you want from your PC there are way more choices available online.

 
And there's the rub. As there are a kazillion different choices available even if you're not building your computer from scratch, only the most seasoned expert could possibly know "exactly what they want". This obviously can lead to buyer's remorse and unmet expectations, not to mention future Mac users. IMO this is because PC hardware has become over-commodified, while Apple prefers to commodify the user's experience. It also explains why PC users are so aggressivly defensive, while Mac users are so much more satisfied.
 
Too much choice can be a bad thing sometimes, as many computer users would maximize their valuable time actually using their computer, rather than spending it learning how to build the best one to meet their needs. When Bill Gates said to Jobs, "you are just building boxes to run our software on", he obviously had it wrong. It's the WinTel world just building those boxes now, and the Apple users who are more satified with actually using them.