[Uri Cohen]

Quote:

No exaggeration.  I did have one friend using a Compaq notebook with XP who lived an almost completely hassle-free life with it for a few years, even, despite his lack of technical ability, kept it virus free.  He was the only one though.

 
Sounds a lot like me.  I'm using a Compaq R4000 laptop from 2005 and the only major issue I had with it is that I by mistake deleted the rootkey off the Windows folder by mistake (and of course BSOD loops).  Now that laptop is five years old and still is my main computer that I use.

 

[Hybrys]

Quote:

I had Acer and those drivers SUCKS on ANY system!!! If you buy Apple, everything just work right of the box, that's what I like. Other thing is, HP and Lenovo has good drivers and support, maybe Dell too.
 
And yes, the other positive thing of Apple is battery life. If you want battery life AND good performance AND light weight it is the only way I see. Otherwise, buy a spare battery or two.

Yeah... I had an Acer laptop a while ago aswell, and it worked out of the box, with a reformat, and all that nonsense.  Infact, I'm on an Acer right now, that as I got it, I reformatted it, and it worked right away.  Maybe it's you.
 
Battery life isn't all it's made up to be, especially if you look at my comparison.  2.5 hours browsing and playing a movie is what I get on my netbook (Which cost me $209), and used to get on my Gateway.
 
Light weight...  The difference is a single pound.  I'm not paying $1500 to carry a single pound less weight, and have an aluminum case.  Am I the only one thinking that?

 

[marcello]

macbook is my working rig, I'm a developer and it was made for me I think . I also work with noname brand PC with Ubuntu and I don't say it's for everyone. Gamers, budget oriented buyers and many more should NOT buy mac. I just say mac is not a crap, it's more expensive than comparison, but after a while the blend of features and other characteristics in a mac is worth it for some people, me included.
 
Just enjoy your Acer, peace

.

 

[ipponrg]

I'm a hefty PC user but I recently bought a 15" MBP for the following reasons:
- light weight (5.4 lbs for a 15" is amazing)
- battery life (i get 7 +/- on a full charge while doing photoshop or other stuff)
- apps are integrated seamlessly into the OS
- aesthetics (sturdy, beautiful, all aluminum)
 
Macs in general are luxury items, but they also are pretty idiot proof.  There are not as many viruses for it compared to Windows.  I hate having to fix family issues with Windows machines, so now I am steering people who can't fix their own computers to Mac because it's less prone to those issues. 
 
I used to have 2 Windows laptops, but the build quality was not as good as the Apple.  The first was a Sager 17" beast (battery life was 1.5 hrs tops) that was a desktop replacement.  The second was an Asus 14" W3J (battery life was 3 hrs tops).  The W3J was nice, but it weighed the same as the Mac.  I realize that the perfect screen size for a user such as myself is a light weight 15" with portability and battery life.  I hate having to buy PC laptops and having to reformat at th beginning, and always having to optimize it. 
 
I have yet to find something as good as my 15" MBP that meets my laptop requirements.
 
For desktop... it's a complete different story.  I would not run a Mac desktop unless I had to

 

[7H3L457H0P3]

The way I see it, everyone thinks Mac's are some kind of high-end specialty PC when in reality the opposite is probably closer. There are literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of part permutations you can base your PC off of and there is so much competition PC's can afford to sell for less.
 
The point of a PC is to be able to mod it specifically to the task at hand. For example: my rig is going to be a gaming rig although I'm also concerned about form factor (very small, shoe box size) so I can use a low profile GPU or a single slot GPU. I need a smaller motherboard so I can use a mini-itx motherboard (6.7'' x 6.7'' or 17 cm x 17 cm). If I need a low profile heatsink for my CPU I can find one that is exactly the right dimensions. I need a smaller optical drive so I can use a slot loading drive. I need a small hard drive so I can use 2.5'' drive instead of a 3.5'' drive. And since ATX PSU's are big I can use a mini-itx PSU for the motherboard and GPU PSU for the GPU.
 
And if you want to go for the awe factor I can chrome my PC or get an industrial strength paint job (falcon northwest for example). I can even get liquid cooling or if I'm into over-clocking I can get LN2 (Liquid Nitrogen for those not in the know). I can get 6 hard drives,  or SSD's, Sound Cards, Network Cards, Physics Cards (now on NVIDIA GPU's), Quad-SLI/FIRE (4 GPU's) or dual CPU's.
 
And if you're into modding. There are people who live and die by modding PC's. It's akin to an art form for many of them.
 
And all those people who say Apple doesn't copy windows, it goes both ways. PC's have had slates for over a decade. The iPad is nothing new, it's actually a step backwards. PC's also have tablets, all in one PCs, netbooks/nettops, tabletop PC's, etc.; all products which Apple doesn't have an equivalent for.
 
Furthermore, if Microsoft optimized it's OS for just one platform like Apple does it would be awesomely fast despite hardware. You want proof look up something called the XBOX 360, you may have heard of it before. If not the guys over at red v. blue have a machinima primer on how to use the internet and the differences between the internet and real life.
 
The point there is nothing a Mac can offer me that would convince me to buy one. My job here is to make your realize how pointless buying one is and save you money.
 
If you have to have OS X build a PC (buy if you must, more expensive than building but still cheaper than any Apple product) and install OS X.
 
Obviously I can't make up your mind for you, but just something to think about.
 
 
7H3 L457 H0P3

 

[hakuryuu]

Quote:

The way I see it, everyone thinks Mac's are some kind of high-end specialty PC when in reality the opposite is probably closer. There are literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of part permutations you can base your PC off of and there is so much competition PC's can afford to sell for less.
 
The point of a PC is to be able to mod it specifically to the task at hand. For example: my rig is going to be a gaming rig although I'm also concerned about form factor (very small, shoe box size) so I can use a low profile GPU or a single slot GPU. I need a smaller motherboard so I can use a mini-itx motherboard (6.7'' x 6.7'' or 17 cm x 17 cm). If I need a low profile heatsink for my CPU I can find one that is exactly the right dimensions. I need a smaller optical drive so I can use a slot loading drive. I need a small hard drive so I can use 2.5'' drive instead of a 3.5'' drive. And since ATX PSU's are big I can use a mini-itx PSU for the motherboard and GPU PSU for the GPU.
 
And if you want to go for the awe factor I can chrome my PC or get an industrial strength paint job (falcon northwest for example). I can even get liquid cooling or if I'm into over-clocking I can get LN2 (Liquid Nitrogen for those not in the know). I can get 6 hard drives,  or SSD's, Sound Cards, Network Cards, Physics Cards (now on NVIDIA GPU's), Quad-SLI/FIRE (4 GPU's) or dual CPU's.
 
And if you're into modding. There are people who live and die by modding PC's. It's akin to an art form for many of them.
 
And all those people who say Apple doesn't copy windows, it goes both ways. PC's have had slates for over a decade. The iPad is nothing new, it's actually a step backwards. PC's also have tablets, all in one PCs, netbooks/nettops, tabletop PC's, etc.; all products which Apple doesn't have an equivalent for.
 
Furthermore, if Microsoft optimized it's OS for just one platform like Apple does it would be awesomely fast despite hardware. You want proof look up something called the XBOX 360, you may have heard of it before. If not the guys over at red v. blue have a machinima primer on how to use the internet and the differences between the internet and real life.
 
The point there is nothing a Mac can offer me that would convince me to buy one. My job here is to make your realize how pointless buying one is and save you money.
 
If you have to have OS X build a PC (buy if you must, more expensive than building but still cheaper than any Apple product) and install OS X.
 
Obviously I can't make up your mind for you, but just something to think about.
 
 
7H3 L457 H0P3

 
If modding is your thing thats great. But thats not the issue at hand.
 
And to say Apple doesn't have an All-in-one is a joke, ever heard of the iMac.. the one that basically started the all-in-one market and pretty much is the single good example of one? And by nettop I would assume you mean something like the EeePC or Dell Zino HD they have the Mac Mini which in many ways is WAY better performance and design wise and was just today updated. Sure it isn't as cheap but it isn't as bad as the competition either.
 
http://usa.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=JEaDVvtKZ9hHhda2
 
vs
 
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_mini?mco=MTAyNTQzNTk
 
vs
 
http://www.dell.com/us/en/home/desktops/inspiron-zino-hd/pd.aspx?refid=inspiron-zino-hd&s=dhs&cs=19&~oid=us~en~29~inspiron-zino-hd-anav1~~
 
Once you update the Dell to what is relatively its max it will come in a little cheaper than the Apple but it still lacks the performance by a pretty large margin in a bigger package. The Asus is just laughable in comparison. 
 
Other than netbooks and cheap headless desktop towers I would say apple covers most product segments and really most customers. Not everyone loves netbooks.
 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

 
Light weight...  The difference is a single pound.  I'm not paying $1500 to carry a single pound less weight, and have an aluminum case.  Am I the only one thinking that?

Nope you're not.
 
Unless you are exceptionally tiny, or planning to be shot into space with it, it isn't worth hardly anything.
 
I'd take it for free, but it isn't.  Being lighter and having a back-lite keyboard are the only real hardware advantages.  So two small advantages for $1500 mor...Wait, never mind.  $1490 for one small advantage.
 
You already know what you're doing Hybrys.  You should just get something that's easy to hackintosh, and set up a dual boot right away or wait and see if you'll need to.  OSX itself is a legitimate piece of software.  A real OS.  It's encrusted with virtual rhinestones, for people who are impressed by the shinys, but it's got a solid core underneath. (Windows has also unfortunately suffered from this problem since the idiots that designed vista decided that transparent title bars were a good use of clock cycles..)  Apple's hardware on the other hand are overpriced fashion accessories, distribution channels, or both.
 
Apple's short sighted business plan has hampered the ability of average consumers to use OSX by arbitrarily locking it to specific hardware.  A semi-closed system where licenses to produce clone Macs are given on a quality dependent basis (like game consoles, but in reverse) would allow Apple to expand OSX's market share and keep it from yo-yo-ing  between bit player, and minor contender.  Their vertically integrated, DRM locked, closed platform, ipod/iphone/ipad conglomerate will fail sooner or latter.  When it does, all of Apple's prestige, style, and image will go with it, severely wounding its computer sales, if not outright killing it.

 

[Adda]

Hmm, maybe the iPad is actually nothing new at all, but instead an old idea that got dropped by the inventor the PC (IBM) back in 1995!
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:700T
 
The HDD protection system used in MacBooks first appeared in ThinkPad T41 and R50 back in 2003.
 
PC is not equal to Windows, comparing computers based on a discussion about software, doesn't make sense as you can run OSX, Windows, Linux, BSD, QNX and many other OS's on any relatively modern computer.
OSX is tricky though, due to poor hardware support as it has been designed to work with a very limited number of configurations, but why use an OS with so many security holes anyway.
 
When comparing PC's to Mac's it's a good idea to look at machines in the same price class and configuration.
Comparing a Mac to an Acer, ASUS, MSI or whatever, is not ideal, they are all consumer machines they do have that in common.
But Apple is probably among the best consumer machines around, but considering the general quality in this area of the computer market that doesn't say much in favor of Apple.
MANY people have a lot of trouble with their crappy Acers but that doesn't make MacBooks any better.
Looking at computers in the same price range with similar hardware configurations, Macs quickly end up competing with business laptops, and in this class Lenovo, HP and Dell dominate,.
Business machines have been made to get the job done day after day, year after year with as little maintenance as possible, while Mac's have been made to look cool and feel nice.
A MacBook Pro does nothing a ThinkPad T/W/X model doesn't do better, and this includes built quality.
I have a vintage 1997 ThinkPad 580 that still works perfectly.
 
Since Mac's don't use PowerPC processors anymore they don't have any magical advantage over PC's.
The PowerPC CPU's was what made Macs good for video, photo and audio work, but thats in the past, but people still think Macs are better at these kinds of tasks but that is simply not true anymore.

 

[ayz]

lighter weight, better battery life, nicer screen
 
and most importantly, excellent chasis construction.
 
i bootcamp mine with windows 7 for a few programs and games i want to play, but default boot into OSX.
 
it's not the best price-performance ratio by far but to me the premium you pay for an MBP is worth it.
 
think of it this way. you can soup up a WRX or 300ZX to be as fast as an M3, but i'd still rather have an M3. it's a lot more expensive, yes, but to those who can afford it, the price is well worth the benefits

 

[marcello]

Quote:

...
 
You already know what you're doing Hybrys.  You should just get something that's easy to hackintosh, and set up a dual boot right away or wait and see if you'll need to.  OSX itself is a legitimate piece of software.  A real OS.  It's encrusted with virtual rhinestones, for people who are impressed by the shinys, but it's got a solid core underneath. (Windows has also unfortunately suffered from this problem since the idiots that designed vista decided that transparent title bars were a good use of clock cycles..)  Apple's hardware on the other hand are overpriced fashion accessories, distribution channels, or both.
 
Apple's short sighted business plan has hampered the ability of average consumers to use OSX by arbitrarily locking it to specific hardware.  A semi-closed system where licenses to produce clone Macs are given on a quality dependent basis (like game consoles, but in reverse) would allow Apple to expand OSX's market share and keep it from yo-yo-ing  between bit player, and minor contender.  Their vertically integrated, DRM locked, closed platform, ipod/iphone/ipad conglomerate will fail sooner or latter.  When it does, all of Apple's prestige, style, and image will go with it, severely wounding its computer sales, if not outright killing it.

Just a quick note: hackintosh is the same as pirated Windows in terms of Apple's licence(OSX is allowed to run on Apple labeled hw).
 
OSX was never ment to run on not Apple hw, so the drivers are bad if they do exist or it's a hassle. Right, you can have a luck and have compatible hw as things are impoving over time with custom KEXT's from some folks, that do that as a hobby.

 

[12thgear]

I think it's great that there are so many users here who enjoy their building PCs/hackintoshes, etc, but I deal with "average" consumers and professionals every day. They don't care about computers. They just care about using them, with few barriers to getting things done. Whether they run Mac OS or Windows, the vast, vast majority of my clients only bother to upgrade their RAM, and rarely, hard drive capacity, things that are pretty easy to do, and only after I've listed the 20 good reasons why it might be a good idea. (Granted Mac mini and iMac hard drives are a pain to access, but it's still easy to add an external drive). My Mac clients benefit from the vertical integration when it comes to "approved parts" and an OS and hardware that are known quantities from one vendor. 
 
Also interesting, almost to a man, my business clients who travel often go for the lightest machines they can live with (ThinkPad X200, MacBook Air, that sort of thing). Several people here have mentioned that they don't care about an extra pound, or toting a spare battery, etc. That's cool, but realize that for a lot of people (business travelers, field techs, the physically weak 

) every pound matters. 
 
Finally, I ask that some of you here try to imagine that people who don't know the ins and outs of computing aren't actually idiots, as much as some of their questions can cause actual, physical pain (anyone who performs friends and family tech support knows this pain). As much as I wouldn't expect most of my friends to know how to perform a clutch job on their car, or even know hot to change their oil filter, I wouldn't expect most people to know how to say, swap out their boot drive for a larger one, or custom build a computer. I know plenty of computing "idiots" who could school me in countless other subjects. 

 

[Adda]

Weight:
A MacBook Pro 13.3" weighs in at 2Kg, a ThinkPad T410s, witch is a 14.1" weighs in at 1.8Kg...
When it comes to 15" laptops the ThinkPad W510's weighs 2.6Kg, the MacBook Pro weighs 2.5Kg.
 
Battery:
Well similar hardware configurations use about the same amount of power, so battery capacity is important here.
MacBook only take one battery at the time, ThinkPads can use at least two at the same time, since the Optical Drive can be removed and replaced with a battery, also some models can have a battery mounted underneath.
 
Screen:
SOOO many MacBooks have glossy displays, and if you like your own mirror image I see why you like them.
ThinkPad W models come with 95%+ color gamut screens that are every bit as good as those found on Macs, and all of them have a matte finish.
 
Chassis/durability
Aluminum is relatively tough, but if hit too hard it will bend and break, also it's easily scratched or chipped.
ThinkPads are made using carbon fiber enforced plastic outer plates, with a scratch resistant surface, and an internal skeleton called a rollcage made of magnesium alloy.
ThinkPads also have drainage channels in the keyboard, so if you spill fluids on to the keyboard it will drip out underneath the laptop.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

Just a quick note: hackintosh is the same as pirated Windows in terms of Apple's licence(OSX is allowed to run on Apple labeled hw).
 
OSX was never ment to run on not Apple hw, so the drivers are bad if they do exist or it's a hassle. Right, you can have a luck and have compatible hw as things are impoving over time with custom KEXT's from some folks, that do that as a hobby.

The terms in those licenses are figments of the imaginations of insane lawyers.  You buy it, you own it.  Stupid terms in click-thru licenses rarely hold up in court now, and they will be struck down in the long run.  Would a contract with your new Ford that specified you could only use expensive Ford brand gasoline in it ever hold up in court?  Especially if it's a contract of adhesion?  These things are still relatively new and being sorted out by the courts, but nothing short of destroying the internet will change the direction the laws are heading.
 
Since op is clearly a power user, and already seems to know a lot about how to hackintosh, its not any stretch for someone to recommend that he do it.  As far as I can tell, he know a lot more about it than I do.  He's just having trouble making up his mind.  Since he knows what he's doing I think a hackintosh is the best compromise between between cost and safety.  Save almost 50%, get faster hardware, and fall back to OSX if you need to.  Getting a mac book and mostly using windows on it would give the same results, but at a much higher price tag.  Hybrys sounds like he can get OSX working on a carefully chosen windows laptop for a lot less than $1500 worth of his time.

 

[7H3L457H0P3]

For the record the iMac is not an All-in-one because it requires an external interface to input commands (keyboard and mouse) if it had a touchscreen that would be different. You can call it an "All-in-one with a keyboard and mouse" if you want but it's a bit of a mouthful.
 
The mac mini is not a nettop because it runs a C2D as opposed to a atom/nano/neo, but I could still fit better specs into it for cheaper. I'm fairly sure I could fit a 5670 and core i3 into one using a mini-itx mobo and still be under $500. Actually it would make a nice case mod. I might have to consider it.
 
I have had good luck with my 2 Compaq's which served me for 3 years even though they were budget PC's. I'm not the biggest fan on Acer but they support MXM so props to them for that. I hate OEM's who solder the GPU to the mobo.
 
If you want a laptop that's thin, light, aesthetically pleasing, well built, and with a good price to performance ratio try the Asus ul80jt-ai. It should be out shortly and will have a CULV i7, w/ DDR3 RAM, and Optimus technology housed in a lightweight 14'' aluminum chassis. It's expected to get 12 hours of battery life.
 
 
7H3 L457 H0P3

 

[marcello]

Quote:

...Hybrys sounds like he can get OSX working on a carefully chosen windows laptop for a lot less than $1500 worth of his time.

It's not a bad idea, I saw a hackintosh on a laptop, the question is, what battery life will be on hw with drivers not optimised by apple. If battery life is not a problem(I don't mean poor battery life, just normal windows life(+-3h depends on battery)), ignore this comment