[Tuberoller]

So far none of the Universal players I've heard have really blown me away. I just got two newer players from Marantz and Denon that I have high hopes for but so far I'm not impressed with the offerings.

As for the DVD-A and SACD formats,I agree that there is merit in the actual sound quality, but the record companies,especially Sony have really,really screwed those of us who adopted these formats and took the plunge to invest in hardware and software. I'm bummed that promised Titles have never materialized(what happened to the Springsteen and Marley Titles that I heard early examples of? Where is the Stevie Wonder/Motown stuff that he said was in the works?) and the record companies continue to string us along with poor quality recordings and few of the "Pure DSD" recordings that really showcase the strengths the SACD format. I think both DVD-A and SACD will die a slow death regardless of how much we fight it.

 

[Jahn]

Yep, i'm waiting out the wars and just ripping redbook to my computer in the meantime - i guess that means my 0404 doesnt even need an upgrade above the 44 and 48 sampling rates eh? oh it does 96 now too, but i dont think i need it for any of my music.

heck, even the tushi is fine for now - until blue ray or corn ray or whatever gets decided, my 3960 will do just fine as a dvd player.

 

[dhwilkin]

I'm certainly not opposed to universal players and hi-resolution music. I very badly want to be able to purchase all my titles w/ the best sound quality possible, I know some could really use an update. I don't care that much what format it comes on (as long as it doesn't lose normal cd conveniences like track skip, cd text, etc...).

But I don't have any DVD-A or SACD titles. Like so many others in this thread, there simply are very few titles out (or supposed to be coming out) that are in my current cd collection. So few that it's not worth the investment in a new rig for them, no matter how modest.

 

[Sugano-san]

I read that universal players reduce the DSD signal internally to PCM prior to conversion, even expensive ones. What's that all about?

 

[Mr.PD]

I am looking forward to getting a universal player. Especially now that I have heard a well done surround SACD disc. The portability factor of hi rez does suck. But as long as the discs keep coming as hybrids I don't care. As for the equipment sucking, I think that is changing. Stereophile has gone nuts over the Linn Unidisc universal player. There is a Denon that is highly rated also. I think its a matter of time.
I don't foresee much in the way of hi-rez portable players until one of the formats truly dominates. Then maybe we will have an MP3 equivalent and gear to run it on. Portable hi-rez disc players is what we need now. Maybe a universal version would help settle which format will win out.

I also believe that it won't be too long until multichannel audio is in your car, at least from the aftermarket companies. The OEMs are just now getting MP3 in the cars. I'll be 80 years old by the time the OEMs put multichannel in my car.

I see a universal player as the answer to problems like VHS versus beta. Right now all I have is an SACD player. I need a universal player to compare SACD to DVD-A. I can't compare formats the way I am set up now. I have no intention of buying one of each kind of players.

Of course it still comes down to who puts out the best marketing campaign. VHS was not better than Beta, but it was marketed better.

 

[JaZZ]

I'm not, and that's why a McCormack UDP-1 is on its way. It's said to be one of the best players for the CD format, too -- a very important feature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welly Wu Is it the poor selection of titles?

Yes, for sure! My choice for a universal player is based on the wish to explore the new formats, not the new titles they make accessible. And in some way I'm also disappointed about the meager acceptance of the hi-rez formats on Head-Fi, nominally an audiophile community with interest on technical progress in terms of music reproduction.

I do understand the reservation in view of the poor musical bandwidth, but I think someone has to push the hi-rez formats, and who else is predestined for this if not we?

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl If no one is willing to take the plunge and put their money where there mouths are, no new format of any kind is going to take off, is it? IMO, if you have no skin in the hi-rez game, you have no right to complain about lack of titles, lack of support and the shaky appearance of the future! There will continue to be a slow release schedule, continue to be few players released, continue to be little support if everyone adopts this wait-and-see attitude. I've said this over and over again, it's Field of Dreams in reverse: "if we come, they will build it." If you don't want to be stuck with CD-level sound forever, you need to get off the sidelines and vote in favor of the new formats with your pocketbook.

This unprecedented consumer position always fails to move me. The onus is now on the consumer to purchase a product they do not want in the hope that the manufacturer will be encouraged to improve the product to a level that meets the customer's satisfaction. Has this model ever succeeded?
I think the reverse of "field of dreams in reverse" may be the only possibility.

I'd even suggest it is the music industry who is sitting on the sidelines, not digging into their pocketbooks.


Quote:

Originally Posted by markl As for lack of titles, this one also mystifies me to an extent. Many of the greatest rock 'n roll titles ever released are currently available in hi-rez. Maybe its time to expand your horizons and check out some of the really great (*gasp*) "older" music?

Now I have to make myself like stuff I don't like in the hope that the music industry, encouraged, puts out stuff I like.

I recall it was those Beatles CDs driving me into the store to try those new shiny things back in '84. Give us what we want and we'll gobble it up at high prices. It works every time.

Gobble, Gobble!

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugano-san I read that universal players reduce the DSD signal internally to PCM prior to conversion, even expensive ones. What's that all about?

Yes, some of them. And all players enabling bass management with SACD. Also at least approximately 90% of all SACDs have been converted to or from (hopefully hi-rez-)PCM during their production. Which actually makes the SACD format obsolete. Nevertheless, this doesn't mean a fundamental corruption of the expected high resolution, but after all apparently eliminates all possible advantages of DSD.

 

[Glassman]

when will people finaly understand that the strenght of DSD is in the sampling frequency, not in the fact that it's one bit.. it is too PCM after all, just noise shaped and with 1bit quantisation.. any manipulation with the signal except for maybe adding delay have to be done in multibit, this is fine as long as the sampling frequency is kept high and reasonable quantisation is used..

and the bass management and such in universal players is most likely done at high enough samplerate internally and may be output as DSD to the converters (at least the case with Pioneer DV-563A/5A)

 

[aerius]

Lack of music I'm interested in. Roughly 1% of the stuff I want is available in hi-res. If I wanted to replace my CD collection, I'll be able to find about 2-3 titles out of my ~200 CDs in hi-res format, while I can make a trip to the local used record store and find about 20-30 of them on LP, and if I look around on the internet I can get about half of my CDs on vinyl. At the same time I can find ~85% of them on cassette tape, and those I can't find I can record myself from my CDs.

 

[markl]

Quote:

This unprecedented consumer position always fails to move me. The onus is now on the consumer to purchase a product they do not want in the hope that the manufacturer will be encouraged to improve the product to a level that meets the customer's satisfaction. Has this model ever succeeded?

How many titles would be necessary to move you?

Did you wait to buy a DVD player until every single VHS title was available in DVD-Video (if so, you're still waiting...). I think some people's expectations are just too high. A format has to start somewhere, it's not possible to make an instant presto-change-o transition... Quote:

Now I have to make myself like stuff I don't like in the hope that the music industry, encouraged, puts out stuff I like.

There's a difference between stuff you've listened to and decided you don't like it, versus stuff you've never heard and are biased or prejudiced against because of its original release date. I hate to sound like mommy trying to push the vegetables on you, but "try it, you'll like it"...

 

[TrevorNetwork]

For me it is also a lack of titles. I also find the anti-copying measures to be an insult to consumers. Nevermind the fact that in Canada we are charged a levy for every blank CD purchased. Assuming all consumers are utilizing their blanks to copy music and games is bull.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman when will people finaly understand that the strenght of DSD is in the sampling frequency, not in the fact that it's one bit.. it is too PCM after all, just noise shaped and with 1bit quantisation.. any manipulation with the signal except for maybe adding delay have to be done in multibit, this is fine as long as the sampling frequency is kept high and reasonable quantisation is used.

Hopefully. But the best you can expect is 24 bit/192 kHz. So in terms of sampling frequency you give up DSDs virtual advantage (2.8 MHz). Not to speak of its postulated superior low-level behavior.

Quote:

And the bass management and such in universal players is most likely done at high enough samplerate internally and may be output as DSD to the converters (at least the case with Pioneer DV-563A/5A)

As I posted, you don't have to expect a fundamentally corrupted resulution by converting DSD to PCM and/or vice versa. But what's the sense of DSD in this context when you could have had hi-rez PCM from the beginning, without (multiple) conversion?

 

[aeriyn]

While I don't subscribe to high-rez formats myself, I would like to point out that DVD as a whole has become a standard format. Not DVD-A, but DVD itself, in general, has won over the VHS cartridge and is now the king of the video hill.

Which, incidentally, means that DVD players are gonna be around for a while. Buying into THAT format isn't going to leave you "holding the bag."

However, I can't say the same about SACD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glassman it is too PCM after all, just noise shaped and with 1bit quantisation.

I thought that DSD was a form of pulse width modulation and not related to PCM at all...

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl How many titles would be necessary to move you?

4

Mainstream?
Beatles White album
U2 Actung Baby
Joy Division Closer
Oasis Definitely Maybe (Avail in DVD-A)
To name 4 off the top of my head, but any other 4 classics will do just as well.

We've had this discussion before. And my answer the last time was that I bought a DVD player for the sole purpose of watching Oasis' 'Familiar to Millions'.
I am extremely reasonable.
And apparently quite generous with my wallet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl There's a difference between stuff you've listened to and decided you don't like it, versus stuff you've never heard and are biased or prejudiced against because of its original release date.

I've heard everything. Of course that is not factually true but I have certainly heard my share of representatives of all genres. From Billie Holliday to Bach, Joplin (Scott & Janis) to Jarre, Skynyrd to Seeger (Mike, Peggy, Penny & Pete).
And of course there are thousands of obscure or little known artists or sub-genres I've not heard. You get my point.
I've been listening to music daily for more than 30 years and I know what turns my crank. I also look forward more than backward.
God help you if you play the Doobie Bros in my presence!