[greenstuffs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif why is that applicable now and not in the past? there were always costs and profits. but why are things so much worse, now? and they are. they truly are.

Blame it on the companies that always comes up with a new revision to cut costs i don't know how many XBOX 360 revisions are yet it still have the RROD, why should the manufacturer to be blamed? they are just building things to spec. Computer has been a fierce industry and the current economic situation does not help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif i7? HOW many years old is that? give your mobo 2 years, at least. it seems to take a while before things expand/explode. this is not an immediate failure mode. plus, it had nothing to do with o/cing. it was not stress related; NORMAL operation caused them to fail. the rackmount we had at work was 100% guaranteed not to be oc'd my home systems also are very rarely oc'd (ie, almost never). my network switches were not (hey, that gives me an idea, though...)

My i7 is about 1 yr old and i expect to use it for the next 4 yrs, so i give it 5 yrs life, i hope i'd get there (fingers crossed

). But honestly i do not expect my computer to last 20 yrs. This is the current society always the latest and the greatest, or should Chinese manufacturers be blamed because the ipod clicky wheel went dead right after the warranty? is it the manufacturer or the company's design?

 

[qusp]

it is not correct to generalize, as some very high quality things are made in china, but the fact of the matter is that most companies that outsource to china (and other building nations) do so in an effort to cut costs, then you will find that often they will have their own cost cutting strategies, combine these 2 and you get an object that is often under spec for the job that was barely specced to begin with and the thing is this is how china often positions itself, not as a quality alternative, but as a cheaper alternative. I think that when/if china actually starts to make an effort to fight this reputation and starts to trade on quality rather than cost they will do some very good work and very efficiently/politely too.

a company that I have dealings with, has recently had to call back a whole line of components because what was specified to be UMPE came back as polycarbonate (the prototype was correct) and everything started forming hairline fractures. another component designed to carry high current AC came back made from carbon doped polymer rather than the more expensive polymer specified!!! sounds a bit dangerous and callous doesnt it? how many fuses were blown before that was discovered I dont know; can you imagine if they were shipped directly out to the consumer? to be used with very expensive kit

while these sorts of things and more continue to occur, China will never shake off this reputation of making dangerous and cheap components/products. whether this can be applied as a broad stroke is immaterial, these are not isolated events and common enough to make me (and many others) very suspicious of anything produced there. its a pity if they just went that extra mile they would be unstoppable, but I guess I should be thankful they often dont.

some of my favorite gear is made there, but because of how it sounds, not how good it looks or how well it is put together. my watch that I love, is beautiful and has not missed a beat in 5 years was made in thailand under contract; there just doesnt always seem to be the same pride of workmanship unfortunately, its often a case of 'just enough to do the job', metal is often too thin or soft so the thread of screws strips in no time, chassis warp after a little while and nolonger sit flat, etc etc.

so IMO its often a combination of the company who specifies the job and the manufacturer; also I think that we as consumers have a part to play too, as we want more for less and this puts pressure on companies to provide more better bang for buck and thus the problems mentioned above can occur, sometimes even providing quite sizeable bang for your buck

more than expected

of course they dont have exclusive license on shoddy work, thats for damn sure. but at the moment in China it is proliferate

 

[MomijiTMO]

That's a great post qusp. China does pride itself as the cheaper alternative and in this day and age, that alone is enough for most companies to justify outsourcing their work.

 

[cegras]

Apparently no one here realizes that the quality of the product is set by the parent manufacturer. I'm sure everyone here knows much computer stuff is produced in China.

 

[googleborg]

the motherboard thing scared me somewhat, but thankfully all my PCs use 'enhanced durability' motherboards, one is now 6 years old with an abit MB, and is working great, and this one is a gigabyte one with uprated oscon caps, chokes, copper traces etc.

I think many MB makers have reacted to the exploding caps thingy with uprating their motherboards.

simply don't pay to cheap out on the motherboard and power supply

also, i'll agree with the quality has nothing to do with where it's made. Have many items made in china, such as all NAD products, and their quality+workmanship is not in doubt. (uhm well ok NAD had some exploding power cap issue a while ago

and don't quote me on this but some of their latest nad c315bees seem to have bulgy-cap issues too...).

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by downsize /img/forum/go_quote.gif I mean, they offer very nice cosmetics, which costs money. This makes me wonder just how good the amp guts can be for the price ? Looking at the MKV solid state guts though, looks fairly good.

The thread title is "Why are Little Dot amps so inexpensive?" and the quote above is the opening post. It's a thoughtful question with the potential to enlighten all of us re apparent quality (LD amps in general and the MKV in particular) and lower than expected prices.

As in most discussions, we hear from voices of both experience and conjecture, i.e., those who actually own or have owned LD amps and those who haven't but claim to have insights on the subject.

Unfortunately, it's not always clear which is which: Who speaks from actual experience? And who speaks from pure conjecture, never having had any firsthand experience with LD amps?

In place of firsthand experience, participants in the discussion can always cite secondhand knowledge based on information gathered from reports or primary sources. To my knowledge, apparent conjectures in this thread are not based on readings of or interviews with LD owners or reviewers.

Confounding this discussion are generalizations such as the exploitation of child labor in sweatshop conditions and the use of shoddy material to keep costs low. Based on news reports over the last few years, these generalizations may have some merit. However, no one in this forum, to my knowledge, has made the connection between these generalizations and LD amps.

The question remains: To keep their costs down, do the manufacturers of LD amps actually use shoddy parts and do they engage in inhumane child labor practices?

To imply that they (LD) do without any specific evidence is, in my opinion, irresponsible.

One person has published photos of shoddy parts and claims secondhand knowledge of others who have had similar experiences, but he/she fails to show how these are related to LD's practices.

When a person spoke out against irresponsible generalizations, another replied that he/she was being "too literal." Ironically, our words are all we have in these discussion forums, and we must take responsibility for them. If we are being misunderstood by readers who are "too literal" (in my book, one can't be literal enough), then we need to point a finger at ourselves -- not at the readers.

This is still a fascinating discussion, and I'm learning a lot. Thanks to the OP and everyone who's posted.

 

[linuxworks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cegras /img/forum/go_quote.gif Apparently no one here realizes that the quality of the product is set by the parent manufacturer. I'm sure everyone here knows much computer stuff is produced in China.

its not always so cut and dried.

you mean to tell me that even if a parent co specifies a part to be X that the manuf, on his own, NEVER cost reduces it and keeps the extra for himself?

come on.

 

[greenstuffs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif its not always so cut and dried. you mean to tell me that even if a parent co specifies a part to be X that the manuf, on his own, NEVER cost reduces it and keeps the extra for himself? come on.

Greed is always there, but parent company must send a supervisor to be physically there to oversee the production process.
Is not like hey here is some money and build me this, the US had a very bad case back in the 80s when the FAA cracked down on bogus replacement parts for commercial airlines, what you have to say to that? that was people's lives at stake and these people in the US.
Greed is always there but as long as you supervise and make sure wheels don't fall off, the chinese and everyone can make great products.

 

[aristos_achaion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cegras /img/forum/go_quote.gif Apparently no one here realizes that the quality of the product is set by the parent manufacturer. I'm sure everyone here knows much computer stuff is produced in China.

Exactly. And how much computer stuff is utter crap?

Companies outsourcing to China do it to reduce cost. Sure, they can mandate parts or QA or whatever, but it's the lower-cost labor they employ that actually implements the parent company's orders. Cost cutting = compromise. When companies initially outsource, they quite often experience a sudden decrease in quality...for instance, when Vasque outsourced their hiking boots to China, they went from good, durable boots to boots whose soles break in half after a year (trust me, I had a pair).

I'd expect that native Chinese companies might actually have generally higher quality than companies that outsource...after all, they're manufacturing these things in China because that's where they're located, not because that's where the costs are low.

 

[aristos_achaion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenstuffs /img/forum/go_quote.gif Greed is always there, but parent company must send a supervisor to be physically there to oversee the production process. Is not like hey here is some money and build me this, the US had a very bad case back in the 80s when the FAA cracked down on bogus replacement parts for commercial airlines, what you have to say to that? that was people's lives at stake and these people in the US. Greed is always there but as long as you supervise and make sure wheels don't fall off, the chinese and everyone can make great products.

You think the Chinese need Western overseers to produce quality products?

I'd wager that the problem with outsourced products (and our general perception of Chinese goods as low-quality) comes from this cost-cutting mentality...Western companies aren't going to China for quality labor, so they'll naturally be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

[greenstuffs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aristos_achaion /img/forum/go_quote.gif You think the Chinese need Western overseers to produce quality products? I'd wager that the problem with outsourced products (and our general perception of Chinese goods as low-quality) comes from this cost-cutting mentality...Western companies aren't going to China for quality labor, so they'll naturally be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I am saying that ANY RESPONSIBLE company MUST supervise and control their product production process, in china or anywhere in the world.

 

[McPanse]

Count me among those who would like to see this thread return to the OP's question. It would be especially useful to hear from anyone who has dissected LD products or otherwise assessed the quality of its components.

I say this as someone whose LD tube amp failed within the first year (audible distortion and smoke) and has been using a replacement unit without incident for nearly 12 months now.

FWIW, David's explanation was that "(h)igher than normal outlet voltage (~130V) caused the heater voltage to oscillate too high, causing eventual failure of the power tubes and burn out of the circuit. The circuit has since been revised to accommodate such conditions."

 

[ford2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomijiTMO /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's still not a representative sample of the entire industry. There are 2 SinglePowers to me. There are the good SP amps and then there are the terrible con jobs. Not all SP amps are con jobs.

Really:How do you tell the difference,just buy it and hope it keeps going without burning the house down or giving your nervous system a good tickle.

If he made any good ones he must have been having a bad day.

 

[MomijiTMO]

In the beginning everything was rosie....

 

[cegras]

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif its not always so cut and dried. you mean to tell me that even if a parent co specifies a part to be X that the manuf, on his own, NEVER cost reduces it and keeps the extra for himself? come on.

Uh, no? It depends on the parent company, and it depends on who they outsource to. If anything bad happens, the parent company simply shifts suppliers and the factory dies out. Pretty cut and dry.

Speaking of which, the exploding capacitor thing was likely caused by a faulty electrolyte recipe (badcaps.net?). Furthermore, what is the temperature rating for those so called poor quality caps? Have you ever entertained the thought that they were being used out of spec? Or perhaps that in a rackmount chassis, things can get exceptionally hot?

Quote:

The story describing how the electrolytes came to be faulty reads like a lot of fiction. It begins in Japan, at a major capacitor manufacturer. A materials scientist for the Japanese company resigned and went to work for a Chinese capacitor manufacturer. While there, he reproduced one of the electrolytes used in his former employer's premium (low-ESR) aluminium electrolytic products. Staff working with the scientist then defected, taking the secret electrolyte formula with them. They used the formula to manufacture their own electrolyte, which they subsequently flogged to major Taiwanese capacitor manufacturers at bargain prices. Unfortunately, their reproduction of the formula was flawed and the rest is history.

This story is also from about 6 years ago. Either you entertain stigmas for a terrifically long period, or you really don't understand the concept of change. Somewhat pathetically, have you noted that most of those bad caps were made in Taiwan? Even if you did, no doubt you rushed to heap the blame on China. Fear mongering at it's best.