[jp_zer0]

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Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif you don't know me and yet you judge ME, now. great. wonderful. I've been around a while and been in the electronics field long enough to see progression of how goods have been varying in quality. I'm NOT alone in this observation that, over the past 10 years or so, the quality of imported good has markedly gone down. I see it in almost everything I buy that comes from china and is on the low end. I did cite my high-end camera body as a counter-example. there are some, I admit that; but it is in the minority and most goods that come from china are cost-optimized to the point of being, well, just plain unsafe! is this saying that china can't change? of course not! I do remember a time when 'made in japan' was a joke and no one wanted those goods. a few decades later, it was a complete turn-around. nothing saying the chinese can't do that as well. but the state of things NOW is that its mostly low-cost and often unsafe goods coming from that region. partly due to the greed in the non-chinese parent companies but I don't let the local chinese manufacturers off the hook entirely, either. they often are doing 'bad things' beyond what the parent company had specified. effectively making things twice as worse ;(

"Made in Japan" was a joke? Let me guess, after WW2? It's extremely hard to believe that you are not making a racist diatribe now that you brought in post-war racist sentiment towards the Japanese.

 

[SoupRKnowva]

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Originally Posted by jp_zer0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif "Made in Japan" was a joke? Let me guess, after WW2? It's extremely hard to believe that you are not making a racist diatribe now that you brought in post-war racist sentiment towards the Japanese.

he was only showing that a country can turn around, if anything that was a compliment to japan.

 

[feifan]

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Originally Posted by shabta /img/forum/go_quote.gif This thread has been an interesting and yet dissatisfying read. And we seem to have gotten pretty far off the track of why little dot amps are so inexpensive. This post will likely continue the pattern of dissatisfaction and distraction, but perhaps a bit of data combined with some anecdotes will inch us further along. As to the issue of child labor, sadly it is nearly impossible to buy any high teach equipment that is free of the efforts of child labor. Much of the worlds ( a quarter I think) cobalt ends up in high tech gadgets (cell phones, ipods and yes Head-Fi equipment). In the congo where a significant amount of copper is mined estimates have ranged to over 50,000 children are involved in the mining. The mining industry as a whole is rife with well documented human rights abuse throughout Africa. So what about china? China has many well documented cases of Child Labor and Human rights abuse. Use google, you’ll find lots of reports. One of the greatest areas is in the assembly of electronic equipment such as PCB boards etc. Another problem is flagrant violations of the 40 hour/week law. Most factories push their workers to 70-80 hours per week. Many workers have very little leverage. Many factories only pay salary once a year so if you want to quit or make trouble you can lose many months of pay because you may have worked 8 or nine months with three to go before payday. Even if a factory wants to obey the law they can’t. If they go to 40 hours/week they essentially double their salary costs relative to the competition and will soon go out of business. These kinds of conditions are standard at many of the famous western companies doing manufacturing in china. Google around and you will see documented cases of human rights abuse at Apple factories. Responsible companies work with manufacturers who are verifiably willing to forgo hiring children and to at least be much better than average in their labor practices. These companies believe that in the long run it does mean better quality. And there is some anecdotal evidence that this is true, but I am contractually bound not to share what I know. So if many of the hi-tech products coming out of China are made by exhausted and/or very inexperienced (young) workers how come some products are so much higher quality than others? For example, ipods are historically better quality are better than Telcast. That has to do with process control and engineering expertise. I won’t bore you with a lecture on Total Quality Management or Design for Test (especially in circuit design), but that is where the dividing line likely is. As a high tech executive in one of the world’s biggest software companies I established a large scale engineering effort in china…. Many of us in Silicon Valley who did this didn’t do it because salaries were low, although that helped. We did it because it was getting harder and harder to find competent engineers in the US and Europe. There are lots of great engineers in those countries but the high-tech industry grew so fast and the war for talent became so intense, we needed to diversify the talent pool. Over time, just as gold now costs about the same where ever you go, so too will the cost doing engineering work be the same wherever you go. The cost is not that far apart even today. Salaries have skyrocketed, and although the engineers I hired were amazingly bright and worked hard, they were inexperienced. That inexperience costs money. Experience is why Jan Meier living in Germany can make an amp that in Skylab’s recent review compared very favorably to the Audio-GD Phoenix, a Chinese Amp costing more than double. Same goes for quality ( I am not implying anything bad about Audio-GD, I like my Compass ). So Apple with its incredible engineering and process management expertise and huge economies of scale can deliver higher quality products than a less experienced Chinese company. I certainly wish that all high tech companies would be much more transparent about their manufacturing and materials procurement practices. This would certainly lead to more reliable products and less human suffering, even for us relatively rich consumer. So it is a legitimate question how come little dot amps are so inexpensive. And it is easy to see that the cost of parts which don’t differ much from place to place make it a near certainty that LD is cutting important corners. No matter how nice a sales person the company is run by. Although by the time your introductory budget priced tube amp blows you will be on to something else... I hope.

So, where's the beef? This is like a hamburger sandwich with all the trimmings -- lettuce, tomatoes, mayo, ketchup -- but no beef patty. Where's the evidence for your "near certainty that LD is cutting important corners"? Overgeneralizations and non sequiturs are poor substitutes for proof. Furthermore, weasel words such as "cutting important corners" can't hide the fact that the issue is the use of faulty parts and child labor by LD. Where's your proof?

 

[shabta]

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Originally Posted by jp_zer0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif One part of the Ethical debate I find invalid is the moral responsibility argument. Any child labor involved in LD's contractors is of no moral responsibility of LD, nor of us buying the end-products. I think any societal issue is an issue of that particular society only. (I mean society broadly, any association of individuals) Even thinking utilitarian, refusing to do business with societies having a record of poor working conditions will only further exacerbate the problem. Lower wages, more hours, more unemployment and even more inevitable abuses. This sort of moral revenge defeats its own purpose. In all, I say let the economy of business run its course, let societies and individuals develop their own sense of Ethics. Do not limit the opportunities of people who have so few, look at eastern products with an open mind and enjoy your LD amps.

That logic is entirely bogus. It is through shining a bright light on nike's reprehensible behavior (yes at there contract labor sweat shops) that nike took action to verifiably improve conditions. It was a win for all the poor working people in those factories.

Actually Japan (an eastern country) did a lot to reform 70s style labor practices in the US. By treating workers with a bit more dignity, they were able to improve quality through out... The US companies started to pay attention.

And as for letting societies work out their own sense of ethics, that was part of the argument against standing up to Hitler.

Anyway, this pretty far off the target of this forum...

I don't think Uncle Erik's argument was solely that child labour was bad on moral grounds. I think part of his argument was that bad labour conditions led to unreliable products, he used the example of child labor to make the point.

In these days of planned obsolecence, many people don't require that their cheap headphone amp last very long. And so the trade off of low cost versus long term reliability is a worth while one for these folks.

But to simply castigate posters who try to make the point (albeit a bit colorfully) that this is indeed the tradeoff seems to bring into question about whose mind is in fact really open.

I believe that I have an open mind about amps made in china. I own some. But sometimes when something seems too cheap to be true, western or eastern, I decide to spend a bit more and go for something I know to be of high quality.


Don't you?

 

[McPanse]

I take it no one has anything more to say about LD build and component quality?

 

[jp_zer0]

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Originally Posted by SoupRKnowva /img/forum/go_quote.gif he was only showing that a country can turn around, if anything that was a compliment to japan.

That's like complimenting a black man because he can read despite being black.

 

[SoupRKnowva]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp_zer0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's like complimenting a black man because he can read despite being black.

So you're saying that you think japan should have stayed a country that produced sub par products for the rest of time? that they shouldnt try to excel and produce better things through engineering and hard work? Why are you being so obtuse, the country got better through the work of the japanese people, now things made in japan are some of the best around the world. How is it not a compliment to say that they wanted to climb out of mediocrity and better themselves? and then actually accomplished it.

 

[jp_zer0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shabta /img/forum/go_quote.gif That logic is entirely bogus. It is through shining a bright light on nike's reprehensible behavior (yes at there contract labor sweat shops) that nike took action to verifiably improve conditions. It was a win for all the poor working people in those factories. Actually Japan (an eastern country) did a lot to reform 70s style labor practices in the US. By treating workers with a bit more dignity, they were able to improve quality through out... The US companies started to pay attention. And as for letting societies work out their own sense of ethics, that was part of the argument against standing up to Hitler. Anyway, this pretty far off the target of this forum... I don't think Uncle Erik's argument was solely that child labour was bad on moral grounds. I think part of his argument was that bad labour conditions led to unreliable products, he used the example of child labor to make the point. In these days of planned obsolecence, many people don't require that their cheap headphone amp last very long. And so the trade off of low cost versus long term reliability is a worth while one for these folks. But to simply castigate posters who try to make the point (albeit a bit colorfully) that this is indeed the tradeoff seems to bring into question about whose mind is in fact really open. I believe that I have an open mind about amps made in china. I own some. But sometimes when something seems too cheap to be true, western or eastern, I decide to spend a bit more and go for something I know to be of high quality. Don't you?

In the 70's it was the US who were busy adapting their labor to the Japanese methods. Japan had been a very productive and powerful nation all through the 20th century. With the exception of the years following WW2, where their industrial infrastructure was shot because of the war. In the 60's they were very much back on their feet and that was a faster recovery than most European nations afaik.

I don't know, I have a hard time considering SONY transistor radios from the 50's and 60's to be a joke. Very hard time. Also having a hard time considering Battleship Yamato to be a joke.

 

[feifan]

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Originally Posted by McPanse /img/forum/go_quote.gif I take it no one has anything more to say about LD build and component quality?

McPanse, thank u for the effort to keep this thread on topic. It seems some are intent on hijacking this thread by ignoring repeated pleas to return to the topic.

The question, if we can get back to it, is: Do Little Dot amps use shoddy parts?

Hopefully, comments will address this question.

I owned two of the early Little Dot tube amps, the II+ and the II++. The II+ had arcing and popping problems, but these were addressed by the designer and the agent. I gave the II+ away and still have the II++.

Since then, LD has been producing increasingly refined tube, SS, and hybrid amps. I'm gradually moving toward SS balanced amps so I jumped at the opportunity to buy the LD MK VII+ and LD_DAC1, a balanced combo.

Thus far, it has performed flawlessly. The design is aesthetically pleasing, and the performance has been excellent.

 

[shabta]

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Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, where's the beef? This is like a hamburger sandwich with all the trimmings -- lettuce, tomatoes, mayo, ketchup -- but no beef patty. Where's the evidence for your "near certainty that LD is cutting important corners"? Overgeneralizations and non sequiturs are poor substitutes for proof. Furthermore, weasel words such as "cutting important corners" can't hide the fact that the issue is the use of faulty parts and child labor by LD. Where's your proof?

So it was kind of a cute rehash of the old "where's the beef?" commercial.

There is another metaphor that comes to mind. In rural france where I live, when even the most uneducated farmer sees smoke rising from behind the mountain, they conclude that another farmer in th next valley is doing a controlled burn of his field. They don't have to see the flame to believe it exists. If you told them that you don't believe there is a flame until you see it, they would most likely try to avoid you and somewhat suspect your good common sense.

This is called inferential reasoning. It is even accepted in a court of law where they call it circumstantial evidence.

They fact that something sells for less then seems reasonable and is made in a country has been plagued by bad labor practices can be a sign that something is amiss. Agreed that it doesn't mean that something definitely is amiss, hence I used the term "cutting important corners." Your seeming inabilty to accept any nuance in communication doesn't of course mean that I said something that I did not in fact say.

All audio design involves a certain amount of compromise, even at the highest end. This is never more so when considering the budget category and often imprtant corners are cut resulting in severe sonic compromises or worse.

You mentioned how your first LD amp was defective. I really don't like to make too much of anecdotal evidence but there seem to be others who had the same problem. Currawong earlier in the thread claimed his amp suffered from shoddy case work. The fact that the solid state gear which is not that impossibly cheap for what it is has worked without problems is not a counterfactual example by the way.

Anyway it is good that your LD gear has given you pleasure and satisfaction. And I am convinced that we can't have a reasoned polite discussion on this topic. And still no one has offered a plausible counter argument to Uncle Erik's.

Best Wishes....

 

[Palpatine]

I still remember when Japanese autmobiles very considered inferior to NA makes. How things have changed...

 

[Max F]

I still really enjoy my LD MKIII after a year with it. I think it was worth the price. Would I pay 300+ dollars for a headphone amp. No. They filled the niche for my purchase and I'm a happy customer.

 

[ford2]

The biggest problem with this and other forums is the age old entrenched ideas that if it costs less than an arm and a leg then it is impossible for it to be any good.

This argument is mainly brought up by those with highly over rated and highly over priced toys to justify there investment to themselves first then others.

Some here should sit back and come to terms with the fact that a very very good rig can be put together for less than a $1000.

As to LD and there amps well I can only talk about the MK Vll and the Dac 1 a combination made in heaven for those that wish to join the exulted ranks of so called balanced amps.

No doubt that if the LD internals were packaged in a $500 enclosure with some fancy sounding name silk screened on then they would be welcome in the High Cost forum.
Sorry about the typo it should read high end forum.

So to sum it up LD make some great well made gear backed up with a rock solid warranty,and they are just going to keep growing bigger if they continue to give people what they want:and that is the bottom line.

 

[carledwards]

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Originally Posted by ford2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The biggest problem with this and other forums is the age old entrenched ideas that if it costs less than an arm and a leg then it is impossible for it to be any good. This argument is mainly brought up by those with highly over rated and highly over priced toys to justify there investment to themselves first then others. Some here should sit back and come to terms with the fact that a very very good rig can be put together for less than a $1000...

Best post of the thread. Everything stated is so true! Especially the second sentence. It's downright amazing how hard some people will try to justify their extreme purchases to themselves (and everyone else) with a constant littany of "my dog's better than your dog" posts. Or what is seen here a lot, "it can't be any good unless you buy what I bought."

 

[feifan]

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Originally Posted by shabta /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is called inferential reasoning. It is even accepted in a court of law where they call it circumstantial evidence.

"Circumstantial evidence," at least in court, is still evidence. It's not direct, but with corroborating evidence and with a preponderance of evidence, it could make a strong case, especially in civil proceedings. Vague generalizations hardly qualify as evidence.

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Agreed that it doesn't mean that something definitely is amiss, hence I used the term "cutting important corners." Your seeming inabilty to accept any nuance in communication doesn't of course mean that I said something that I did not in fact say.

Weaseling and obfuscation are poor replacements for clear and connected thought. You're responsible for your words -- not the reader.

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I really don't like to make too much of anecdotal evidence but there seem to be others who had the same problem.

Again, you misuse words. "Anecdotal evidence" and a reliable account of a personal observation or experience are not the same. The latter can be used as evidence if it can be assessed or replicated. Those of us who actually own LD equipment can present our experiences for others to evaluate or replicate. Can you?

Quote:

Anyway it is good that your LD gear has given you pleasure and satisfaction. And I am convinced that we can't have a reasoned polite discussion on this topic. And still no one has offered a plausible counter argument to Uncle Erik's.

These and other red herrings won't work. The issues are pretty clear cut.