[Naim.F.C]

I don't think Sennheiser and AKG are guilty of it. It's always the smaller companies that do this the most imo..

I think Fang is being far too greedy. Charging $6,000 for a headphone is criminal, in my opinion.

I was thinking Sennheiser with the Orpheus and AKG with the K812, which for all intents and purposes does not seem a massive departure from what they've done before. Manufacturing cost wise I'd imagine there'd be little difference comparative to some of the rest of their line, and I can't imagine loads was put in to R&D either. Seems like a bit of a flagship cash cow to me.

I think the $4000 esque headphones, and $1000 iem's, have made us lose sight of the fact that even $1500 is still a hell of a lot for a pair of headphones, as is $400 for a pair of iem's.

 

[ib1dance]

   
Try Californium. $27 million per gram. The most expensive substance or material on Earth. Antimatter is technically the most expensive at an estimated cost of $62.5 trillion per gram, but we've only ever actually created a few nanograms of it.


EDIT: Just checked, even though Rhodium is rarer than Platinum (in terms of quantities mined), Platinum is still more expensive at today's market value per gram or ounce.

 
Though the most precious substance to a human is of course water (H2O) as we'd be dead within approx 7 days without consuming any. Though my 8 year old daughter argues that's it's Air (O2). Though carbon has to be up with the most precious also. Only a rather silly economic system would put so much value on materials that are comparably not that usefull.e.g. Gold (besides it's actual real practical value as a electrical conductor etc). They be cultural delusions in those that boast their "success" by wearing  shiny metal.
 
"Value" is a subjective perception . The price a culture is willing to pay for  objects such as  headphones is  driven by a desire for  items of luxury such as headphones or smart phones. So the question "are headphones over priced or why are they so expensive" has a direct answer. Because sufficient people are willing to pay that amount for the product. In some cases this may drive innovation as a new technology becomes more popular. But innovation and success do not have to be correlated, as a new technology maybe used to regress human civilization. Old technologies that cultures or industry have been traditionally built upon that once served a purpose may now be seriously stunting our growth. Coal is a obvious example. The technology has long been surpassed by  better (healthier) ways to generate energy.
 
It's weird how a technology  like coal powered energy production,that was poisoning so many people back in Victorian England, is still being used by countries whom essentially do have a choice not to use it. Some large area's of the economic system have a perverted value system, as it values dirty energy production over peoples health.
 
"Why are flagship headphones so expensive now?"
 
Some of that value is hot air (marketing), some of that value is bling (Fashion),some of that value is unfair cost that makes some people more money then they deserve to earn ( unjust business practice). However, some of that value is a genuine technological advancement that improves the products aim. That being to produce a measurable ,quantifiable increase in some desirable quantity (e.g. responsiveness) or a decrease in a undesirable quantity (e.g. added distortion/noise) . A "quality" that humans perceive as a more pleasurable audio/musical experience  . e.g - .beyerdynamic DT1990. <<<< Test these out! recommended for listening and/or producing electronic music genres as there dynamic and responsive (thus all over genres also).The product also  includes two pairs of ear pads:Ear pads for bass, if your feeling Hi-Fi (good for casual listening) , and ear pads for transparent audio reproduction if your thinking analytically (scientific). Good for music design.
 
Edition: As a reference.The last headphones that impressed me as much as the DT1990 were the HifiMan he 400 http://www.head-fi.org/products/hifiman-he-400 . Interesting as the latter is a planar headphone.
 
http://europe.beyerdynamic.com/tesla-technology.html

 

[Whitigir]

I was thinking Sennheiser with the Orpheus and AKG with the K812, which for all intents and purposes does not seem a massive departure from what they've done before. Manufacturing cost wise I'd imagine there'd be little difference comparative to some of the rest of their line, and I can't imagine loads was put in to R&D either. Seems like a bit of a flagship cash cow to me.

I think the $4000 esque headphones, and $1000 iem's, have made us lose sight of the fact that even $1500 is still a hell of a lot for a pair of headphones, as is $400 for a pair of iem's.

Orpheous deserve to be expensive. It was the whole system that designed into it as in Amp and headphones. Uniquely developed for the system and not found anywhere else. It is a piece of art, a piece of statement and craftmentship from Senn. Themselves. When I can not afford something, I would never call it out for being expensive, in fact, I admit and admire it if it really deserve it. The orpheous system is one of those that I dare to say Luxury of Luxury.

Anyways, most of Senn stuff is still fairly priced to the present market, and not like Fang.....I remember when hd800 came out, people was like "holy cow....that much for a pair of headphones". So, Senn made the status and still keeping at it, they deserve credit instead.

 

[chaos215bar2]

This sort of just proves how utterly ridiculous premium headphone pricing is, and how consumers are basically being had.

Firstly, when talking about "revolutionary" new tech, Tyll called him up on it, asking how it radically differed from the fazor in Audeze or similar in MrSpeakers line, and he was basically stumped, resorting to to how it "changed the shape".

So you're paying an extortionate amount of money for a change in the shape of the driver or magnets, and because of "how good they sound", which is subjective in the first place.

 
So to be fair, I think Fang did actually answer the question. What I understood is that the difference between the HE-6 and the Audeze or MrSpeakers is that the magnets themselves are a shaped rather than being housed inside a structure to guide air movement. From what I've seen of Audeze' and MrSpeakers' offerings, this seems accurate and may or may not provide some benefit. Whether the whole package is worth $6000, of course, is another story.

 

[Kernmac]

One of these threads pops up every other month on HeadFi.  If you chase the rainbow then you are generally going to pay stupid money.  This is the case for top end anything.  Are $200 TShirts costed according to materials and R&D?  How about $300 designer jeans?  $500 -$1,000 bottles of wine or Whiskey?  Prada handbags? Etc. Etc.  In most cases top end product is generally made from premium materials, it is sometimes innovative (being first is worth a lot in marketing) often (but obviously not always) there is considerable investment in R&D, some products will be more labour intensive than others, and special tooling/machinery costs need to be recovered, sales and marketing costs, and many other factors will effect pricing. However, market positioning, market trends and fact that people buy based on emotion rather than logic will influence sale price. Trying to determine a head phones cost or worth based on some very loose business practices/statements (throughout this thread) is a bit of a joke.  How do you determine the worth of any product?
 
People buy emotionally not logically. In order to sell effectively, you must fix in your mind that everyone buys emotionally then rationalizes the purchase with justifying reasons for their action.
 
Why are flagship headphones so expensive now?  Because market demand enables them them be.  
 
If you don't think it is worth it, or you can't afford it, don't buy it.

 

[SHAMuuu]

So to be fair, I think Fang did actually answer the question. What I understood is that the difference between the HE-6 and the Audeze or MrSpeakers is that the magnets themselves are a shaped rather than being housed inside a structure to guide air movement. From what I've seen of Audeze' and MrSpeakers' offerings, this seems accurate and may or may not provide some benefit. Whether the whole package is worth $6000, of course, is another story.

He needs to hire a good PR person. He seems edgy and rattled in the new videos he's in. And the vultures seem to be circling in the sky and keeping an eye. Even when Tyll was interviewing him and that new advanced technology iem and new magnet shaped technology he seems tense. I didn't even notice how much of a credibility hit Hifiman has taken and his unprofessional mannerisms are cringe worthy from a PR standpoint. Hope he can repair the damage because it's hard to watch.

 

[ubs28]

This sort of just proves how utterly ridiculous premium headphone pricing is, and how consumers are basically being had.

Firstly, when talking about "revolutionary" new tech, Tyll called him up on it, asking how it radically differed from the fazor in Audeze or similar in MrSpeakers line, and he was basically stumped, resorting to to how it "changed the shape".

So you're paying an extortionate amount of money for a change in the shape of the driver or magnets, and because of "how good they sound", which is subjective in the first place.

I had a discussion with another member about a claim that according to him, Focal made, about beryllium being 30x or 40x the cost of gold, which quite frankly is utter marketing nonsense. Per gram of 99.9% pure beryllium metal (pellet, ingot or bar), beryllium is orders of magnitude cheaper than gold (over 7x cheaper per gram if you buy in larger quantities). Somewhere those responsible for the marketing of Focal Utopia headphones must have confused beryllium with plutonium (the stuff used in nuclear reactors and weapons) to get to those sorts of figures.

Well, considering how Focal only produces the Utopia in low quanities, then it should be easy to
make your own Focal Utopia's for less than $4000? So it should be a headphone with pure Be drivers that has no weakness while exceeding the technical performance of the HD 800. And with no weakness, I literally mean no weakness since it is even able to be driven straight out of an iPhone and still sound great. Also the same premium materials must be used (so it should be a carbon fibre headphone with high quality leather) and with excellent comfort.

I have always known this about Hifiman since their previous flagship at $3200 has worse sound quality and build quality than the HD 800 S. I didn't need this video to know why someone should never buy a high-end headphone from Hifiman.

 

[frix]

It's an easy to answer question.
They became so expensive because enough people are willing to pay such insane prices.
Speak with your wallet. Don't buy overpriced products and they will disapear.

 

[Raketen]

I always remember the allegory about frogs in slowly boiling water when I think about headphone pricing trends.
... usually just before I notice that it is exceptionally hot in here h34r:

 

[midoo1990]

I have been out of the headphone loop for about 3 years now and looking at the new headphones and the pricing is just astonishing compared to few years ago.
But then again, its like this for every product/ hobby, you pay alot more for luxury, status, availability or a 5% increase in performance.
I bought alot of headphones and IEMs and if i had to do it again, i would settle for hd650 and ie8  as an iem. For me, the difference in performance between something like hd650 and hd800 is not worth the price difference. Maybe it will be worth it for me if im listening to music and concentrating on every little detail 100% of time, but since im always multitasking and writing research journals/conference papers or studying, i couldnt care less if i can hear a cough in the background or not. I dont see it getting any better for me than HD800 and jh13 and i certainly will never drop 4k on a headphone though i wont judge anyone buying headphones with that price because i understand their views.

 

[flargosa]

Low quantities isn't necessary more expensive to produce if your fix and variable cost is spread across other product lines.  Meaning shared equipment, facilities, employees, and raw materials.  This is how audio companies like Hsu Research improve their products while keeping the prices about the same.  

 

[Naim.F.C]

Low quantities isn't necessary more expensive to produce if your fix and variable cost is spread across other product lines.  Meaning shared equipment, facilities, employees, and raw materials.  This is how audio companies like Hsu Research improve their products while keeping the prices about the same.  

Presumably also why so many manufacturers share the same or similar overall housing among models. Eg Audeze and Westone.

 

[FastAndClean]

  I have been out of the headphone loop for about 3 years now and looking at the new headphones and the pricing is just astonishing compared to few years ago.
But then again, its like this for every product/ hobby, you pay alot more for luxury, status, availability or a 5% increase in performance.
I bought alot of headphones and IEMs and if i had to do it again, i would settle for hd650 and ie8  as an iem. For me, the difference in performance between something like hd650 and hd800 is not worth the price difference. Maybe it will be worth it for me if im listening to music and concentrating on every little detail 100% of time, but since im always multitasking and writing research journals/conference papers or studying, i couldnt care less if i can hear a cough in the background or not. I dont see it getting any better for me than HD800 and jh13 and i certainly will never drop 4k on a headphone though i wont judge anyone buying headphones with that price because i understand their views.

If i knew what i know now in the beginning, i would settle with etymotic er4s and akg k601 with aftermarket ear pads, unfortunately i lost a lot of money buying new headphones and selling them at lower second hand price.
One day i was at Oslo Hi Fi Center to try some flagship headphones, he1000, lcd3, ht900, hd800, t1, grado ps1000, they sounded very good but not 15 to 30 times the price good.
All of them had some problems
- he1000 had some softness in the bass, very strange, tight and deep bass but somewhat soft, they had annoying peak in the treble around 7-8 khz and the build was squeaky
- lcd3 was heavy and dark, with somewhat drowned upper mids
- ht900 had bright treble and recessed mids
- hd800 i was very impressed with them, very big soundstage and fast transients, but the sound was lean, they lacked body to the mids and the treble was forward
- t1 i didn't like the treble, the bass and mids was very good, neutral
- grado ps1000 no deep bass, bright treble and uncomfortable
i think my next upgrade will be hd800 with superdupont mod and bass eq

 

[Currawong]

I think we've fairly come down to the answer to the original question being that, compared to historic prices, flagships are not so expensive now and that there are people out there who want to buy the very best manufacturers are capable of making.
 
What matters more IMO is whether these uber flagships affect the price of lower models, even high-end lower models, causing them to go up and send the market into the same madness that infected 2-channel audio. With better tech filtering down I don't believe that is the case.

 

[ubs28]

One could say that the new flagships makes other headphones cheaper because you can get the HD 650 for less than $200 now.